Tanks Letting DPS Die

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

This is why parsers are a bad idea... people getting pissed because a dps is too low but dps has to hold back so he doesn't rip aggro from a tank who is getting praise for his dps...

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Well if you can see the parse number is not bad idea to give advice to help people do better. But is pretty sad people use parse to like this way to bully/kick people. Parse suppose to be a tool to help improve perform.

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Originally Posted by Kanitezz

Yeah.................... Friendly reminder: As a tank, you're meant to "protect the party". Thats your first priority. So stay in tank stance if you have to so you can keep hate. IMO, no real reason to be so pissy about potency loss unless you're a dps job. Get over yourself.

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You've confused protecting with babysitting. If I can avoid ripping aggro as a black mage with my tank in DPS stance, you have no excuse unless you're playing monk or samurai. You can't claim it's only the tank's job when almost every DPS job has a way of flat out halving their enmity. As I've said earlier, DPS players are spoiled by the fact that nobody expects anything out of them; I'm not one of those people, you're not so special that you get to focus solely on your role when everyone else is pulling double-duty without a problem.

I main healer so sorry if i ask stupid question since i only can look this from healer perspective.

Can dps aggro more than tank throughout the fight? SAM and RDM is the only class i always see them doing this but, even then its only for the first 15-20 seconds of combat, after that aggro back to tank and everything went as usual. As long as tank play as usual, i never see any dps can out aggro tank in combat from start to finish, unless its a dg level 30 and below since tank is still not at their optimal playstyle.

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Originally Posted by gumas

I main healer so sorry if i ask stupid question since i only can look this from healer perspective.

Can dps aggro more than tank throughout the fight? SAM and RDM is the only class i always see them doing this but, even then its only for the first 15-20 seconds of combat, after that aggro back to tank and everything went as usual. As long as tank play as usual, i never see any dps can out aggro tank in combat from start to finish, unless its a dg level 30 and below since tank is still not at their optimal playstyle.

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Yes, all other things equal, a DPS will build enmity faster than a tank since they do more damage. If a tank stays in DPS stance and doesn't use their enmity combo, losing aggro to the DPS/healer is inevitable if they do not use their enmity management abilities.

The problem I will have is that I regularly use diversion, and STILL pull hate from the tank. For whatever reason, they just can't keep up.

On another hand, 99% of my raid deaths are from a tank flubbing his CD rotation and eating dirt on a TB which then causes me to get btfo cause I was #2 on aggro. That one I don't understand because shouldn't the tanks be doing the shirk circlejerk?

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

The problem I will have is that I regularly use diversion, and STILL pull hate from the tank. For whatever reason, they just can't keep up.

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...you are a SAM, arent u? Question answered.

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

On another hand, 99% of my raid deaths are from a tank flubbing his CD rotation and eating dirt on a TB which then causes me to get btfo cause I was #2 on aggro. That one I don't understand because shouldn't the tanks be doing the shirk circlejerk?

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Different job here, but when that happens, I hammer the Lucid Dreaming button as fast as I can. "Go away, go away, go away!" :)

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

Different job here, but when that happens, I hammer the Lucid Dreaming button as fast as I can. "Go away, go away, go away!" :)

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Then your heart sinks when you realize the Critical Strike gauge already started.

"Hello."

"The end is neeeeeeaaaar..."

If the DPS/Healers grabbed hate and didn't use their enmity tools, its their fault.

If the DPS/Healers grabbed hate despite using their enmity tools correctly, its the tanks fault.

Easy, under no circumstance should anyone be forced to cull their performance because the tank is too inept to grab enough hate before switching to DPS stance. Even when undergeared, tanks should be able to keep hate and DPS just fine, if the DPS have to literally stop attacking after using their enmity tools, the tank has messed up massively.

In a situation where dps didn't use diversion, and tank loses hate cuz refuses to change to tank stance. I even if hypothetically the tank can hold just fine in dps stance if they use diversion.

It's both their faults. If you wanna be good dps, use diversion.
If you wanna be good tank, react to the baddie and use more enmity combos or *gasp*... change to the tank stance.

People should be adapting. I know you shouldn't have to carry, but honestly the more you can carry, means the better you are.

Who's better tank that wipes party cuz they are losing hate because they prioritize dps

Or a tank that adapts to the bad dps who won't use their tools and changes stance to keep the hate?

I dont see the benefit of letting DPS die . It just slows down the dungeon .If they are doing it on purpose they are just hurting themselves as well .

I don't understand why there are tanks that hate dps that dps too high? Diversion/Lucid has a CD so it's not available at all times, and isn't the goal to clear a dungeon as fast as possible? I'd be glad to do more enmity rotation/flashes for monster dpsers.

I mean isn't it's just... logical? Say in Ala Mhigo I do 3k dps w/o stance, 2k with tank stance = 1k dps loss. Most of the time, the dpsers make up 2-3x more than the 1k dps loss vs. if they don't go all out. Therefore I usually begin in tank stance, and upping my dps rotation while watching the enmity bar - if it's filling too fast then more flashes (I met a BLM doing 10k+ dps consistently lol)

By staying in tank stance from the start, I reassure the dps that they can go all out without worrying about enmity. I think this is safer from psychological standpoint since most dungeons are run with random people with random skill levels.

Tanks are like racecar drivers, we are given random cars each race, sometimes a Ferrarri, sometimes a minivan. We can't force to drive minivan like a Ferrarri, we can't drive Ferrarri like a minivan. The onus is on us to learn how to control them. A skilled driver would be able to maximize their potential to reach the goal in a timely manner.

I've never run into that kind of tank before. I suppose I've been lucky (so far) lol. As a DPS main myself, when I do tank in DF, if a DPS pulls...I'll forgive it once or twice. Then I'll say something. If they keep pulling ahead of me, then that's when, as a tank, I'll let them die =p. I'm no slowpoke, but if you want to tank so badly, be my guest. As someone who does endgame content on DPS, since that's what I'm most comfortable doing, I know to wait for the friggin tank. Take a hint, if not SEVERAL, or die. Tough love, my darlings xD.

Nonetheless, I'd be happy to stay in tank stance a little longer for really good DPS. That's they're job, not mine. Or at least, not a priority. They're the ones that actually kill shit. As tank, you hold the mobs on you and the healer keeps the tank alive. If DPS take agro from me, I take it as a lesson that as a tank, I need to git gud. A good problem to have, as far as I'm concerned. Totally nonsensical and moronic, frankly.

If iam tank and this happen, i just play it normal,just tank as usual.

Sooner or later the dps will realized this and several things could happen,
- they will see this mistake and start using enmity
- they will see this mistake and start dps after certain time (to let tank gain aggro first)
- they dont care and they keep doing this, they die and healer will do the "yelling" part for you (tank)

So yeah let them have it lol

Are we referring to dungeons here? Or Savage raiding? In between?

In AoE situations, if a DPS is doing its single target rotation on each mob and it rips I let em die. As a WAR, I'm hitting ~7-10k DPS in large pulls. If a DPS is braindead enough to spam their single target rotation after I overpowered several times to secure aggro before popping a couple defensive CDs, going into Deliverence, throwing up a Storm's Path then dropping 6-7 Inner Release/Berserk'd Decimates (280 potency with no falloff in an aoe) then sure the braindead dps can die. Stopping to overpower in the middle of the berserk window to provoke a mob, swap to defiance thus losing Inner Release, then do an aggro combo is a far great DPS loss to the group than just letting the braindead DPS die at that point.

That said, in single target situations its different. The problem with mindset of many players in this game is that they see DPS/Tanking/Healing as the responsibility of the individual instead of the party. See a raidwide aoe? Use Reprisal or Dismantle to lower the damage of the AoE by 10%, make life on your healers easier so they don't run out of MP or so they can dps more. See your enmity bar? Use all the tools SE has given you to keep it as low as possible, this will greatly increase your party's DPS.

When a healer does something, you complain about the healer. When the tank does something wrong, you complain about the tank. When healers and tanks make mistakes its very apparent. "Oh look, the tank pulled 3 packs of mob and didn't pop a defensive, what a noob" By not using Diversion, you are forcing the tank to generate a ton of enmity. This means the Paladin can't cast Clemency or Holy Spirit, because instead of using Riot Blade they were forced to spam Rage of Halone to keep you from ripping. This means that Dark Knights can't use Souleater, which heals a significant portion of their health and deals significant damage while making the healer's job easier which then also allows the healers to do more. By forcing a WAR to use Butcher's Block, you are slowing the rate they build their Gauge which locks the use of many of WARs offensive and defensive capabilities. By being a braindead DPS you are making things worse for everyone. DPS don't do a huge amount more damage than tanks, quit acting as if the party is asking you to go to great lengths to make life easier for everyone when all you to do is simply press an off-gcd (Diversion) when the tank pulls a boss.

The sooner dps realize tanks only care about dps, the easier time they’ll have in dungeons. I’ve died as tank many times having pop’d all my cd’s only to watch the healer dps spam, I’ve died as every type of dps doing aoes using enmity reduction tools, just watching the tank stay in dps stance going ham, even changing mobs, stop attacking, still doesn’t matter , everyone is worried about their dps vs doing their job 1st, especially when loosing hate or having ppl die cause they were in dps mode.

As a tank, I've only purposely let party members die who intentionally pull more enemies for me to tank. Beyond that, I view maintaining agro as my responsibility. If that means I sit in tank stance or do more agro combos so that DPS can get off more damage, so be it. That's their job, afterall.

As a DPS, since it's been brought up, I absolutely run my single target combos on floor pulls. I didn't sit in queue for 35 min to spam Death Blossom. If I wanted to just hit one skill all dungeon, I'd queue in for low level dungeons as a dragoon and just use Impulse Drive the whole time. But, I do watch my agro meter and switch targets before I pull.

"I just sat in a queue for 35 minutes so I want to be in the dungeon for longer too." I understand wanting to use your combos a lot but you can do that on bosses/end of big pulls and occasionally to keep huton up. ninja has tons of ogcd stuff to do in addition to spam death blossom! :O plus if a ninja aoes and shades the tank it helps control the larger pulls :<

Cuz getting that orange parse in expert dungeons is life

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Originally Posted by Tsilyi

"I just sat in a queue for 35 minutes so I want to be in the dungeon for longer too." I understand wanting to use your combos a lot but you can do that on bosses/end of big pulls and occasionally to keep huton up. ninja has tons of ogcd stuff to do in addition to spam death blossom! :O plus if a ninja aoes and shades the tank it helps control the larger pulls :<

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Here's a crazy notion. I play the game to have fun. If I'm not having fun with something, then I'm not doing it. And, mindlessly spamming one skill at level 70 is not fun.

True, but if it's one skill during aoe then we have a problem! I think fun is fine, to be sure, and I wont punish or harass a player in a dungeon if they're single targetting, but if the tank is pulling more and the healer can handle it, it's going to make everything slow and all the other players could also run out of resources, putting the party in danger.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Here's a crazy notion. I play the game to have fun. If I'm not having fun with something, then I'm not doing it. And, mindlessly spamming one skill at level 70 is not fun.

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Thanks for wasting the time of every group you've been grouped up with, I'd kick you if I got you. Play a different class if you really hate spamming death blossom that much.

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If I'm not having fun with something, then I'm not doing it.

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And everyone else are not having fun with ninja using single-target rotation on 3-pack pulls. Enjoy your 35 min queue again as soon as someone notices you're doing this on purpose.

Oof, well that got mean quick...

So this is how the other side looks at it. If you are not using your aggro drops you are forcing me to lower my DPS if you can actually pull it off me. This hurts the party more since DPS don't lose Damage from using an Aggro drop on GCD. That being said, in a normal dungeon there is no reason a tank should lose aggro after doing 1 hate rotation. Hope you have better luck with tanks but most DPS are given aggro drops for a reason.

This is why I started using shadewalker as a Nin. Took some getting used to, but thanks to this whole scenario I am now a better DPS then before and the tank can go trigger happy and I can focus my DPS too without worrying about potions, second wind, etc etc. Sure it's there if I NEED it, but I usually don't. So, in this sense, thank you tanks who didn't care to be in tank stance :) you made me a better dps, AND, the party better as a whole!

I’ve played mmo games for more than a decade and two things never change, EVER:

1. DPS are always the biggest d-bags in the game and incessantly blame healers and tanks for literally everything they don’t like.
2. The players most concerned with and the most infatuated with parsers are elitists who are more interested in shifting blame onto others than doing what is best for the team. Oh, whenever a “leech” is removed, they tell all the dupes that it was what is best for the team (only dupes believe it).

Tanks let dps die all the time... pity is so few dps ever learn why it happens to them.

blanket statements are definitely cool and always 100% true.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

Thanks for wasting the time of every group you've been grouped up with, I'd kick you if I got you. Play a different class if you really hate spamming death blossom that much.

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And I'd report you for harassment/abuse if you did, especially as you've now said point blank that's why you'd be doing it.

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Originally Posted by MahoSenshi

And everyone else are not having fun with ninja using single-target rotation on 3-pack pulls. Enjoy your 35 min queue again as soon as someone notices you're doing this on purpose.

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No, usually on 3-pack pulls I'm typically not doing anything at all, because there are so many AOEs to avoid that I literally can't do anything without dying.

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Originally Posted by Da_best

So this is how the other side looks at it. If you are not using your aggro drops you are forcing me to lower my DPS if you can actually pull it off me. This hurts the party more since DPS don't lose Damage from using an Aggro drop on GCD. That being said, in a normal dungeon there is no reason a tank should lose aggro after doing 1 hate rotation. Hope you have better luck with tanks but most DPS are given aggro drops for a reason.

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And aggro drops have a cooldown. And they are more effective the more threat that's been generated. Being forced to use it 10s in effectively makes them worthless and I'm just going to shoot by the leet deepsing tank anyways.

For the past week I've been pulling hate from tanks even if I used Diversion or Lucid Dreaming to cut my emnity. It's really frustrating especially when both of them have long cooldowns. People keep on saying to use them (which I do) but it's not as accessible as people believe.

Managing enmity is a group effort, but tanks should be more responsible about it because their aggro management is much more accessible than other roles.

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Originally Posted by K3KW4RCHILD

I’ve played mmo games for more than a decade and two things never change, EVER:

1. DPS are always the biggest d-bags in the game and incessantly blame healers and tanks for literally everything they don’t like.
2. The players most concerned with and the most infatuated with parsers are elitists who are more interested in shifting blame onto others than doing what is best for the team. Oh, whenever a “leech” is removed, they tell all the dupes that it was what is best for the team (only dupes believe it).

Tanks let dps die all the time... pity is so few dps ever learn why it happens to them.

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I've been tanking in MMOs since 1999.
I think what your referring to is a bit more complicated.
DPS is, by its very nature, a 'Internal play' class compared to healers/tanks/controllers who have to act in the best interests of the group or respond to events (External Play).
A selfish/immature player would be attracted to that playstyle more so than other playstyles.
And the behavior you describe would certainly be in character for a selfish/immature player.
Oddly though, that same personality type would never excel in the DPS role past a certain point. They just wouldn't be able to work within the group to make everyone perform better, and a more mature player would eventually pass them as that player would be more inclined to 'refine' their performance by accepting their mistakes.

Side note: Players with oversized egos (self included) often go with the tank classes in the same way. The class feeds into their need for attention, but that same selfish streak will prevent them from truly excelling.

What I'm saying is, a personality gravitates toward a style. Not the other way around.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

And I'd report you for harassment/abuse if you did, especially as you've now said point blank that's why you'd be doing it.

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Difference in playstyle is an option for kicking. Groups I run with use aoe to finish dungeons fast and efficiently. You don't want to? You're not in my group, sorry.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

Difference in playstyle is an option for kicking. Groups I run with use aoe to finish dungeons fast and efficiently. You don't want to? You're not in my group, sorry.

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https://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/lds/...NOgXIvqhS4.png

Hmmm seems I don't see your option there, though I do see that abusing the tool is a punishable act. But sounds like we're both better off for not playing together. I'm sure I'd absolutely hate having to deal with you in any content.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

https://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/lds/...NOgXIvqhS4.png

Hmmm seems I don't see your option there, though I do see that abusing the tool is a punishable act. But sounds like we're both better off for not playing together. I'm sure I'd absolutely hate having to deal with you in any content.

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You can ask any gm you want and they'll tell you that kicking for difference in playstyle is acceptable and happens. Though I do agree that we're probably better off not playing together-I'd want you to actually try, and god forbid that happen.

I personally wouldn't bother kicking, but I would try even harder to make up for it. :\

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Originally Posted by Tsilyi

I personally wouldn't bother kicking, but I would try even harder to make up for it. :\

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Generally for me it just depends on how far through the instance we already are. If I notice on the first pull that a dps isn't using aoe, I'll ask them to. If they don't on the pull after that, I'll ask again. If they continue to waste everyone else's time, then I'll kick them. Cause here's the thing: as a dps, your job is to make things die fast. Do big damage good. Not using aoe abilities on large trash pulls is definitely not killing things fast-so in the same way that you'd kick a tank for failing to hold aggro, or kick a healer for failing to keep the tank alive consistently, why would you not kick a dps for failing to do their job? It's all about accountability, and I find too often that too many dpses feel content to be carried through content.

Anyway, I've gotten this thread off track, and I apologize for that.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

https://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/lds/...NOgXIvqhS4.png

Hmmm seems I don't see your option there, though I do see that abusing the tool is a punishable act. But sounds like we're both better off for not playing together. I'm sure I'd absolutely hate having to deal with you in any content.

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There's cheating. Because you're essentially trying to get a free ride through a dungeon. Especially if you don't respond when I ask you to AOE; you might be a bot.


Harassment if you fly off the handle at me over it or if your lack of AOE leads to a wipe.

AFK if i can't tell if you're doing anything (no buffs on the party window, no obvious tp usage.) For all I know you're autofollowing me.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

There's cheating. Because you're essentially trying to get a free ride through a dungeon. Especially if you don't respond when I ask you to AOE; you might be a bot.


Harassment if you fly off the handle at me over it or if your lack of AOE leads to a wipe.

AFK if i can't tell if you're doing anything (no buffs on the party window, no obvious tp usage.) For all I know you're autofollowing me.

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Wow.... did you pull a muscle stretching that hard?

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Wow.... did you pull a muscle stretching that hard?

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You wanted to know how you'd be fairly kicked over it, and playstyle differences isn't an acceptable answer to you, so there you go. You should contribute to the party if you dont wanna be kicked.