is it okay to not enjoy big pulls?

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

I like how you latch onto one itty bitty statement on my post and disregard anything else I said, and simply handwaving my issues away as something that "probably doesn't" matter.

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Okay, here you go:

The OP is undergeared. His post wasn't about that. It was about wants and desires. He even said he can do it but doesn't enjoy it. Sorry that I decided to talk about the topic.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Except it's not. The OP, at the time if posting this, was underleveled and, as is the case with leveling a tank, relatively undergeared. Regardless of whether or not you can handle pulls in lower level content, he was having issues with larger pulls. Once a tank hits Bardam's Mettle, too, they're no longer going to be able to pull big until they get at-level greens or HQ whites, because the mobs there hit like trucks. But jerks like you, like so many of the DPS I personally have seen, don't care; yiu're too focused on getting everything done nownownownow, and screw what the tank thinks or is capable of.

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You have a very weird attitude about this. Wanting to get things done fast and efficiently doesn't make you a jerk, it just means you have different priorities. And if your priorities don't match the rest of your party's priorities (not counting skill or gear), then you need to grow up and adjust.

strictly speaking it's fine to not like big pulls and i honestly wouldn't give a shit especially if you're a new player. for me, when i tank, i pull big, and i prefer tanks who pull big when i'm not tanking, but it's honestly not going to ruin my day if the run goes a little slower.

Real talk, if you are a new player/tank and don't have the confidence to do big pulls because it's stressful, that's understandable.

When I first picked up tanking I wasn't a fan of pulling big either, but over time I got used to it and started enjoying it once I felt I had enough experience and knowledge to deal with them, especially after HW and SB expansions added more tools for dealing with AoE.

I think one part of them problem is that you are a Dark Knight, which out of the three tanking classes is the trickiest to play optimally due to having many buttons to press and having to manage mana, especially when doing big pulls. So just pull as many mobs as you feel comfortable with until you get used to your toolkit.

For example: Pull mobs > Unleash once or twice > Blood Price > Dark Arts + Abyssal Drain > Delirium > More Dark Arts + Abyssal Drain > Quietus, remember to use your defensive CDs as you need them, preferably BEFORE you fall to low health.

If it's your first few runs of a dungeon and if you're undergeared, take it slow. As you get more comfortable, try taking on one extra group here and there. If people don't like you doing small pulls, that's their problem, YOU are the tank, not them.

Your personal feelings about it is irrelevant. Pulling at least two packs is pretty standard in every dungeon. Some tanks pull more. This standard was established by the community. Like wearing clothes outside, it doesn't really matter if you don't like to. Your options are: don't tank, only tank with friends, or catch flak for not following the standard. If you just do what you want, it's selfish. Eating up 3 other players time to satisfy your feels.

I don't enjoy it, but I do it anyway.....

I would ignore anyone telling/demanding you do big pulls, OP, especially in low level dungeons. The ones whining tend to be dps that rolled heals (sometimes tanks) because they got sick of dps queue times.
Despite what a certain self-entitled subset of the population says, it shaves off maybe a few minutes, and it's hardly the end of the world if a run takes 3 whole minutes longer; It's okay people, the sun isn't falling from the sky, you can relax.

Had a run today through Toto-Rak where the "healer" (he insisted he wasn't really a dps player) kept telling me I was lazy and kept pushing me to do big pulls. In Toto-rak, A level 24 dungeon.. We had a pugilist and a rogue, NO one really has decent aoe at that level (yes, even RM isn't as amazing as some claim at that point).

So... yeah, do what you're comfortable with, then if you want to go beyond that, make sure you're aware of where you are and who you're with. Just, you know... don't turn into That Guy - ie, the idiot I had to deal with.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot. The "healer" said he could just put aero on all the mobs during a big pull. I told him that just bleeds them out slowly, and doesn't address the "no actual decent aoe at this level" issue. It still didn't get through that thick skull of his.

the risk vs reward for pulling really starts to wear off after a double-pull anyway. Personally, I find this to be plenty and it keeps the dungeon in the 15-25 minute range, which is a healthy place for a dungeon run.
if you don't enjoy that, though, I wouldn't really want to pressure you to do anymore than that. and even then I wouldn't push the issue enough to demand you at least double-pull. I don't care how long things take when I'm dpsing.

So a little update. I've decided to give up tanking. And after coming back to this thread I have to say I'm glad I did. I took up tanking wanting to contribute to my FC so I could help runs when the new player was a healer. But honestly I just can't birng my self to enjoy it. And honestly I don't feel bad in the slightest. I thought healers had it bad as far as being shit on by the community but I see now why we have so few tanks. You guys are the problem (except those of you who were supportive).


I could go on a long tangent on how DPS' as some of you have so eloquently suggested towards me 'grow up'. Dungeon runs do not revolve around you and long ques do not entitle you to a speed run. If you want to speed things up then start tanking or healing. Stop demanding other roles cater towards your incessant desire for a 10 minute run.

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Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow

I've decided to give up tanking.

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:'(

I hope time will help you reconsider that decision.

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Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow

So a little update. I've decided to give up tanking. And after coming back to this thread I have to say I'm glad I did. I took up tanking wanting to contribute to my FC so I could help runs when the new player was a healer. But honestly I just can't birng my self to enjoy it. And honestly I don't feel bad in the slightest. I thought healers had it bad as far as being shit on by the community but I see now why we have so few tanks. You guys are the problem (except those of you who were supportive).


I could go on a long tangent on how DPS' as some of you have so eloquently suggested towards me 'grow up'. Dungeon runs do not revolve around you and long ques do not entitle you to a speed run. If you want to speed things up then start tanking or healing. Stop demanding other roles cater towards your incessant desire for a 10 minute run.

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I almost did that back in HW when the cancer that was HW Warrior+Vit Scaling drove the tanking meta to much more ridiculous heights. I don't blame you, but I'd say revisit it someday if patch notes pique your interests.

I'm adding my voice to the growing idea that Large Pulls aren't always enjoyable for all. My ideal is for the group to play to it's strengths.

When ARR was launched, /shout was where the community recruited members for Speed Runs. They weren't expected of the average player and requirements such as "must have relic" was a standard request.

"It's inconsiderate to the rest of the group if someone is not willing to preform thier role to it's maximum ability, you're wasting other people's time." I believe consideration should be given to the player's strength. It's along the lines of "We're as strong as our weakest member" but as compassionate and empathetic beings we are capable of facilitating all sorts.

We don't always know whose behind the avatar or what disabilities they may have. We can't account for how well someone know's their role and assumptions/expectations only lead to worthless confrontation.

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Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow

You guys are the problem.

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Transient_Shadow is right. The problem is us. We should be giving players the space they deserve to learn thier role, dungeon, mechanics, etc... Those who push for content to be performed a certain way (Looking at you guys pulling ahead of your tank!) should be the ones making a Party Finder.

This post is also a reminder to myself to be more patient and tolerant. I know I can get a bit pig headed at times. ;) Let's look out for each other, ya?

I also agree that snobbish parts of the community have created a social momentum wave that has done little more than push their optimized expectations into the random PuGing pool. and they're obnoxious.

it also produces inflated ideas of in terms of "expectation creep" as sperglords rarely know what social moderation is even spelled like.

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Originally Posted by spagthetapdancer

I almost did that back in HW when the cancer that was HW Warrior+Vit Scaling drove the tanking meta to much more ridiculous heights. I don't blame you, but I'd say revisit it someday if patch notes pique your interests.

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I personally DID quit tanking in HW due to my opinion of the str meta. I quit the game altogether during 2nd alex for other reasons. I did have renewed interest once they had fixed damage scaling to vit, but by the time I came back my tank was so far behind, and had all str gear since I had switched to drg, I couldn't even queue for content on war because I didn't meet ilvls lol. SB at least allowed me to "reset" to a certain extent, and haven't looked back since.

I think the OP and others are simplifying the view of the community a bit, certainly there were some trollish "grow up" type statements, but even most of those people would make exceptions towards people learning new content or learning new jobs in general. Asshats will always be asshats, of course, but the vast majority of people simply play along because people are generally non-confrontational. Even if they have a problem they aren't likely to voice it. (although, people can certainly be more confrontational thanks to the anonymity of the internet)

That being said, if you find big pulls stressful it won't be any easier in raids when you're getting your face smashed in, out of CDs and sitting on 2k health hoping to the Twelve your healer saves you in time. So maybe tanking is simply not for you, at least not at a high level. You said you only tanked to help your FC anyways, so unless your FC is the one grieving you about big pulls I don't really see why you'd stop tanking for them?

At the end of the day, what's fair is fair. You don't like big pulls? I don't like small pulls. We are each entitled to our own opinion. I agree with others about the meta being pushed into DF content, and that was certainly one of my original complaints about the str tanking meta at the time. But at the same, I understand and accept it for what it is. If a healer doesn't want me to do big pulls I won't, or if we fail a big pull I always say it's "my bad" first (even if it's not). It's simply about trying to accommodate what the community expects. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I personally DID quit tanking in HW due to my opinion of the str meta. I quit the game altogether during 2nd alex for other reasons. I did have renewed interest once they had fixed damage scaling to vit, but by the time I came back my tank was so far behind, and had all str gear since I had switched to drg, I couldn't even queue for content on war because I didn't meet ilvls lol. SB at least allowed me to "reset" to a certain extent, and haven't looked back since.

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I do like the middle point they've achieved currently. still plenty to hammer out but things are still largely stable atm.

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Originally Posted by Byonka

My ideal is for the group to play to it's strengths.

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This. IMO actual mastery of a class/role/whatever involves the capability to adjust.

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Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow

So a little update. I've decided to give up tanking. And after coming back to this thread I have to say I'm glad I did. I took up tanking wanting to contribute to my FC so I could help runs when the new player was a healer. But honestly I just can't birng my self to enjoy it. And honestly I don't feel bad in the slightest. I thought healers had it bad as far as being shit on by the community but I see now why we have so few tanks. You guys are the problem (except those of you who were supportive).


I could go on a long tangent on how DPS' as some of you have so eloquently suggested towards me 'grow up'. Dungeon runs do not revolve around you and long ques do not entitle you to a speed run. If you want to speed things up then start tanking or healing. Stop demanding other roles cater towards your incessant desire for a 10 minute run.

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Sorry it became a flame war.

I know I should probably just let it go, but I think I failed to add something before. I have actually done a run where I said to the party, "Hey guys, is it okay if I take it easy for this one?" and they were all cool with it. The healer was in fact happier because it meant she could watch TV and play at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Wyndam

I know I should probably just let it go, but I think I failed to add something before. I have actually done a run where I said to the party, "Hey guys, is it okay if I take it easy for this one?" and they were all cool with it. The healer was in fact happier because it meant she could watch TV and play at the same time.

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Like I said, at this point a 2 pack grab is standard. You asked your group if you can go against the standard and they were cool. Most groups will be. I just started lvling Drk. I tell my groups that I'm pretty new to drk and that I will be pulling one pack until I feel comfortable. Most groups are grateful for the heads up. Before I wasn't saying you need to always pull big, but working towards grabbing at least 2 packs should be a goal.

I'm a fresh lvl 70 paladin tank and had a healer tell me "Big pulls" in a kugane castle run. I don't do real big pulls unless my gear and or the healers gear is up to it. Other then that I pull small. The healer was well geared so I trusted him. I pulled at least 2 mobs and no more then that. The healer (who name shall not be disclosed) could not heal for s**t. Most of the time I would get really low (even through cd's) and end up dying. He wouldn't even res the dps (who were also well geared but stood in crap for whatever reason.) Basically all I can say is this. Tank at your own pace. If you feel confident pull big. If not pull small.

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Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow

insecurities.

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I'm sorry but I can't take seriusly someone who put the blame for their own inneficiency on others. "You guys are the problem (except those of you who were supportive)" so the people that agree with you are good but those who disagreed are the cause that you can't play a role properly? I don't undertand your logic. or perhaps you are refering as to "why there's few tanks" which is by itself a very baseless accusation becouse we don't agree with your Ideas. Every Role has something to manage to push it as far as you can. With your mentality next threat we are going to see from you is "is it okay to not enjoy dpsing as a healer?" The community has nothing to do with your own enjoyment that's why you have plenty of classes to choose from that fits your standars, but what you are asking here has nothing to do with your enjoyment of a role, but simply the gratification of not putting the effort. If you don't enjoy it it's because you don't know how to do it, You will not know how to do it by quitting. Also it seem you made your choice prior to cheeking back on threat so get these guilty statements out of our forums no one in here put a gun in your head and if statements as " grow up" offended you then don't come back blaming the whole tanking community for your own insecurities.

Pulling big is not even a thing you are suppose to like or not, you are a tank with aggro abilities and defensive cooldowns they exist for a reason, pulling small pack is the equivalent of a dps doing 1,2,3 and a healer overhealing and sititng idle when no damage is coming. If you are learning the role you won't get nothing by quiting and blaming it on others, the only here to blame is yourself.

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

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as much as I want to agree with you, but it seems underestimating tanking in general is common in here.. you really say that with a straight face that pulling small pack is same as dps only doing 1,2,3 ?

how about if i pull big and just spam flash over and over and over and weaving cooldowns, thats 1,2,3 as well right? thats how silly you sounded.

Tanks who do their shit wrong is the one who loss aggro on mobs, and doesnt rotate cd's in big pulls and ended up blaming healer of why his face hit the floor after pulling wall to wall with no CD.

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Originally Posted by Levan86

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what does this has to do with my statement? I'm talking about putting the effort to use your class properly, Pulling small is the same as a dps doing 1,2,3. You don't require to use cooldown you don't take any incoming mayor damage and you don't require much effort to hold aggro on 2-3 mobs. so yeah I'm going to tell you with a straight face pulling small is the same as 1,2,3 or a non dps healer. And yeah no shit jimmy if you pull big and all you do is spam flash obviously you aren't doing any better, just as any dps who instead of 1,2,3 they add 4,5,6 and call it a day that was not the point and you are just making up a scene for the sake of the argument. Now if instead of just spaming flash you pull all the way down to the wall use your cooldown properly hold aggro and do your best aoe rotations then you are doing miles different than just using flash, your comment has nothing to do with what I was talking about. And what's there to be understetimated about tanking? I've been a paladin main since I started playing this game on release if pulling a small pack is such a big task for you then maybe gotta sharpen those tanking skills.

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

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do i even say anywhere in my post that its hard for me to pull big? or you just resort to petty insults just because i showed you how tanks that pull big can be as dumb as dps who do 1,2,3 ?

you are trying to generalize that tank who pull small are as silly as dps who do 1,2,3 i showed you tank who pulled big can even sillier with just flashing and rotating cooldowns, and not doing aoe moves at all.

do i even say that is how i play paladin? flashing all mobs all day long and rotating cooldowns? or do you take my point totally wrong? come now..

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Originally Posted by Levan86

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The only thing I can understand from your last two posts is you completely misunderstood the person you were quoting

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Originally Posted by TheMax1087

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welp, sorry for not being clear then i guess?

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Originally Posted by Levan86

do i even say anywhere in my post that its hard for me to pull big? or you just resort to petty insults just because i showed you how tanks that pull big can be as dumb as dps who do 1,2,3 ?

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That was never in contention.. The point was small packs are brain dead, much like a dps who 1-2-3's. Minimal effort required.

Larger pulls are not brain dead, they require more thought and effort to execute properly than small pulls. This doesn't really exclude someone exhibiting minimal effort on larger pulls, but in and of itself that is a different conversation. The fact remains that large pulls are more challenging than small pulls.

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

next threat we are going to see from you is "is it okay to not enjoy dpsing as a healer?"

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That thread exists and, unsurprisingly, looks a lot like this one. Possibly worse.

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Originally Posted by Wyndam

That thread exists and, unsurprisingly, looks a lot like this one. Possibly worse.

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That's in part because many players who came to this game are FF players, not MMO players. They are used to single-player RPG's, where efficiency and optimization are more-or-less irrelevant. And they jump in here where, all of a sudden, you are expected to run optimal strats with perfect timing, because it's no longer a solo operation. You have a team counting on you, and they expect good play. There's not room for you to invent your own build or try and do things in a weird way.

Lots of people can't make the transition.

As to the OP, I'm sorry that I expect my fellow tanks to care about optimization. Claiming I'm a DPS player in disguise or some such is a really strange remark, but you do you.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

As to the OP, I'm sorry that I expect my fellow tanks to care about optimization. Claiming I'm a DPS player in disguise or some such is a really strange remark, but you do you.

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I will say that learning how to be a good melee DPS helped me be a better tank. From both the execution side - double-weaving CDs, paying more attention to rotation and buffs, and (before they fixed it) making sure auto-attacks kept going, stuff like that. But then also from the perspective side, like I spend a bit more effort trying to make sure mobs are in good position for aoe, paying more attention to which mobs the dps are attacking if ST (still a pet peeve when I see dps attacking different targets, so I switch to whichever they are attacking).

DPS player in disguise is a bit of a stretch, but I can say for sure that maining a DPS for a while gave me a better perspective on how to keep up damage while on tank. But just me personally, I take as much pride in dealing decent damage as I do in mitigating tank busters, like a Critical Hit doing 4k damage. That makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside, just as much as when my bard tells me to stop because I'm out dps'ing them lol. That's one of the great things about being a tank (and I'd presume healers), being able to do more than just "what's required".

Personally the way I tank is based around how well I know the dungeon. If I've run it before (whether that be DPS, Healer, Tank, etc) and know the enemy spawns then I'll pull big. If I'm new to it or havn't been in the dungeon in a long time I'll usually pull smaller just so I don't risk a wipe.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

You have a team counting on you, and they expect good play.

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The optimization you're talking about kind of amounts to clocking in and out on time at the tanking factory. That's not really teamwork.

I only don't enjoy big pulls if it's clear that 1 role or the other isn't well geared to contribute accordingly.
If a tank is still undergeared/inexperienced, they're just gonna take loads of damage making it difficult to heal through.
If a healer is still undergeared/inexperienced, they can't heal effectively through all the damage.
If one DPS is undergeared its still manageable but if both are very undergeared/inexperienced then things just might die very slowly and may push the tank and healer over their available resources for surviving while there's incoming giant chunks of damage as 90% of the mob is still alive.

But yeah in my opinion pull big if your group looks good for handling it.

Smaller pulls give more leeway for the unexpected like the healers kid irl suddenly screaming like they're being killed in another room or someones dogs going berserk... doorbells and phones ring... you're less likely to wipe in a smaller pulls when real life comes crashing in... remember you're playing with real people with their own real lives... 10 mins longer isn't going to hurt anyone and if you really feel it is perhaps you need to take a step back from games for awhile...

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

you're less likely to wipe in a smaller pulls when real life comes crashing in...

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So? When real life comes crashing in, it's completely irrelevant if you wipe or not, because one of your party members will be busy in real life for a while anyway. Chances are, by the time you come back, the people have already respawned and are waiting. Depending on your role, they might even proceed with small pulls on their own, because you don't need a tank or extra DPS for small pulls in the first place.

Moreover, the less time you spend in content, the lower the chance for emergencies to happen while inside content. You get more time to spend in real life in general, which is probably a good idea anyway if it's busy enough for you to consider such things in your daily habits.

Your argument is backwards.

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

remember you're playing with real people with their own real lives...

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Let's throw your argument right back at you: what if they prefer taking less time in game in order to accommodate their real life time constraints?

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10 mins longer isn't going to hurt anyone and if you really feel it is perhaps you need to take a step back from games for awhile...

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You can't possibly know that. Why do you get to decide how valuable peoples' time is?

Thanks for another reason to quit tanking

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

Smaller pulls give more leeway for the unexpected like the healers kid irl suddenly screaming like they're being killed in another room or someones dogs going berserk... doorbells and phones ring... you're less likely to wipe in a smaller pulls when real life comes crashing in... remember you're playing with real people with their own real lives...

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Those types of occurrences are pretty darn rare in my experience, like less than a 1% level of frequency.

I don't think it really makes sense to adjust downwards and do small pulls every time in the off-chance that something that occurs so infrequently may happen. In the rare situation in which a party member has something suddenly happen irl that causes their play to become interrupted and leads to a wipe, I'd rather just take the wipe and let the person sort out their situation and then keep going once they are back. Choosing to have one run out of many take a little longer because of a wipe caused by an unexpected rl event is a much better option imo than having things take longer every time due to always defaulting to small pulls.

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

10 mins longer isn't going to hurt anyone and if you really feel it is perhaps you need to take a step back from games for awhile...

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Okay, so I have been seeing responses like this thrown out quite a bit in threads like this and to be blunt I find them to be utterly ridiculous.

You are basically saying that people, such as myself, that have a good amount of real life responsibilities and therefore are required to budget their time well should just not play video games. I'm sorry, but my time is valuable to me because it is limited and to be told that I should just not bother to spend time engaging in an activity that I enjoy simply because my time is limited and I don't like people wasting it selfishly. That's pretty condescending. You say that players should be considerate of the fact that the other people in their group are real people with real lives, yet you brush aside the fact that real people with real lives often have real life responsibilities and schedules that they need to adhere to. That is a very one-sided point of view to take, saying that people should accommodate for what you think is important or your situation, but screw other people with their different situation they should just not bother to play.

If people are new to something or are still learning I will of course adjust for them and take the time necessary for the group as a whole to succeed, however if someone is inconsiderate of my time and decides they can use it up however they want and I should just deal, I will take issue with that.

Simply put, we should all be considerate of each other, our various situations and learn to be accommodating, whether it is slowing down a run to not overwhelm a new player or doing our best to not take up more of another player's time than necessary. Interacting with other people and working as a team should never be a one way street. Pleading with people that they should be considerate and then turning around and not being considerate of other people is ridiculous.

Hahaha. I love the "I quit tanking" or "you're the reason I quit" responses. Your in a tank forum, talking to other tanks. Most of us don't care if you quit. We're tanks! You quitting doesn't affect our que times. The cherry on top is tanks quitting because they can't handle a little hate.

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

Thanks for another reason to quit tanking

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Maybe you should quit posting on an open forum if you can't handle even the slightest bit of criticism without devolving into melodrama.