What consumers expect of a FF-title

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Originally Posted by Corrderio

I expect something I haven't seen in a FF in a long time: Deep storyline with interesting characters and character development. Last FF that ever grabbed my attention like that was 9.

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How can they bring back something that never even existed? Good luck Square.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

How can they bring back something that never even existed? Good luck Square.

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You know sometimes I totally agree with your posts thinking they are %100 the truth. And then there are times like this when I feel like your being a troll. . .
Make up your mind :S

He's always trolling.
When you agree with him it is a sign that you are insane.

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Originally Posted by Bowen

You know sometimes I totally agree with your posts thinking they are %100 the truth. And then there are times like this when I feel like your being a troll. . .
Make up your mind :S

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Would it be completely and utterly insane to assume, that a pre/teen of today would like the story and characters of, say, XIII a great deal more than the people in their 20's/30's with significantly more accumulated experience in relation to all kinds of stories in general, the patterns they generally consist of and the capability to understand extremely complex and abstract ideas with relative ease?

Would it be insane to assume, that stories "made for adults" (especially those that could be considered "good") differ in content in more ways than just having more cursing, alcohol and violence?

Now, generally speaking, how old were all of you when you played these games with "good stories"? I'm sure it has absolutely no relation to how each and all of you perceived them, even though you had a significantly less developed taste and experience. That was sarcasm.

So, whatever really. Claiming me to be a troll surely is the easiest way out though. That way there is no need to self-reflect while making all of my points unvalid regardless of their accuracy, so it is understandable.

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Originally Posted by Corrderio

I expect something I haven't seen in a FF in a long time: Deep storyline with interesting characters and character development. Last FF that ever grabbed my attention like that was 9.

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Oh man i completely agree, 9 characters were great, then i play ff13 and its like im viewing the same characteristics and persona across all characters. All wanting to be a hero all wanting to be insanely meaningful and all of them being insanely emotional. No flavour imo.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

How can they bring back something that never even existed? Good luck Square.

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I have to agree with this. Anyone who thinks the stories of video games have even come close to many works of literature or film hasn't branched out nearly enough. The stories themselves are competent, with FFVI hitting some mature themes and dark areas, FFXIII's flawed and distressed characters, and FFXII aiming for political intrigue, duty, etc., but all these stories aren't that far removed from young adult anime or manga.

That doesn't detract from them by far, and I still enjoy their stories, but they are what they are and there can be no denying that.

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

I have to agree with this. Anyone who thinks the stories of video games have even come close to many works of literature or film hasn't branched out nearly enough

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And yet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_G...ion_and_legacy

It's not about people "not branching out enough" it's about what you personally define as a good story or not, but it can't be denied that video game companies have done very good story telling (Square included.)

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That doesn't detract from them by far, and I still enjoy their stories, but they are what they are and there can be no denying that.

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This is true about everything in life.

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

That doesn't detract from them by far, and I still enjoy their stories, but they are what they are and there can be no denying that.

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The whole franchise is based on a denial. People played these simple stories while they were young enough to appreciate them and that experience is being directly applied to anything that has come afterwards.

How is it possible for some people to keep FFX in high regard while other people think of it as the beginning of the end? It is because the whole subjectivity is what makes this franchise for each and all of us and it is directly related to our stage of life and accummulated experience at the point these games were experienced.

In fact not much has happened in the last decades. And to a great deal of people fond of the franchise, that precisely is the problem. It happened with FFVII to people who had played FFIV to VI, it happened with X to people who had played VII to IX and it happened with XIII to people who had played X. However now we have external factors to blame that people can use as a scapegoat like the departure of Sakaguchi and Squaresoft becoming SE, also Wada. They make for a great excuse for people to apply a creative fallacy to something they don't quite understand themselves. We are always looking for a reason for anything, and this franchise is the best example of a victim of that sort of thing.

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It's not about people "not branching out enough" it's about what you personally define as a good story or not,

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In that case there should be no arguments about stories in general. Every story should be considered equal. That's not the case, though, as stories can be perceived objectically as well as subjectively which justifies comparing and analyzing them.

Kojima's productions can, also, be analyzed and when all is said and done it is not surprising that the end result does not hold up to the perceived grandness of his supposedly good storytelling. On the other hand MGS2 for example excels if not in storytelling, in an attempt to make a point about the dangers of media and its usage in general. This goes way beyond just the game itself though and starts from the early footage from pre-launch (with Kojima fooling everyone about Snake's role in the game) and continuing up until the dialogue with Raiden and Snake that sums up Kojima's whole point with the game.

"Why didn't you tell me the whole shadow moses project was all a lie??"
"You never asked."

Just like people believed that Snake was going to be the protagonist just because Kojima showed them some edited footage with Snake in it.

Brilliant. But anyway, MGS4 is a retcon after retcon. Still better than what the FF franchise has ever come up with though.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

The whole franchise is based on a denial. People played these simple stories while they were young enough to appreciate them and that experience is being directly applied to anything that has come afterwards.

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I don't think so. I was well into adulthood when I finally got my hands on Final Fantasy III and I enjoyed it just as much as I enjoyed the previous games. Personal preference and nostalgia may be a factor, but it's not the whole story by a long shot. The feel of a game is very much a product of the people who designed it. Suggesting that these people can be interchanged without altering the entire feel of the game doesn't make sense at all.

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Originally Posted by Keisuna

I don't think so. I was well into adulthood when I finally got my hands on Final Fantasy III and I enjoyed it just as much as I enjoyed the previous games. Personal preference and nostalgia may be a factor, but it's not the whole story by a long shot. The feel of a game is very much a product of the people who designed it. Suggesting that these people can be interchanged without altering the entire feel of the game doesn't make sense at all.

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The fact that it's a different form of media than you're used to is surely to be a factor that can not be denied. Especially considering the (possible) expectations you have set beforehand for stories in said format, in the age of Super Marios and Sonic the Hedgehogs forming the standard with barebones stories in them.

We can also think about the experience of improved visuals factoring into the total package. PSX after SNES was a huge leap in visual quality (a core part of gaming in general) and the same can be said about PS2. Then, it should also be noted that the games in question were released early in their respective consoles lifespans (starting from VII) which further accounted for the perception of the overall experience.

None of these factors have anything to do with the story but nonetheless account into why exactly people feel the way they do about these games.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

The fact that it's a different form of media than you're used to is surely to be a factor that can not be denied. Especially considering the (possible) expectations you have set beforehand for stories in said format, in the age of Super Marios and Sonic the Hedgehogs forming the standard with barebones stories in them.

We can also think about the experience of improved visuals factoring into the total package. PSX after SNES was a huge leap in visual quality (a core part of gaming in general) and the same can be said about PS2. Then, it should also be noted that the games in question were released early in their respective consoles lifespans (starting from VII) which further accounted for the perception of the overall experience.

None of these factors have anything to do with the story but nonetheless account into why exactly people feel the way they do about these games.

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Wait, so now you're blaming the increase in graphic fidelity? I don't understand. Yes, it's a factor in how we experience games, but it's not why the FF games went downhill. It's much more than how many pixels or polygons they had to work with, it was what they did with them.

Betel not to upset you but you are making claims as if those people that enjoyed the older FF games played them when they were 9-10 (random numbers) and never touched or replayed them again at the age of 30-31 (again random numbers to show a lapse of time). Which in that case you sir would be incorrect.

Also to make any claims to as why a certain person likes a certain game over another is absurd, unless of course you are speaking of yourself when you speak of said certain person. So again sir, you would be incorrect.

And thirdly, to make any claims that video games do not have equally compelling stories as other forms of media, well then you might want to broaden your gaming experience. Xenogears/Xenosaga series were really compelling science-fiction story, not only that but there was a ton of references to various real-life religious texts. Call of Duty Modern Warfare Series alone holds all the keys when it comes to modern action war movies (the single player story modes). Star Ocean: Till the End of Time was AMAZING in terms of the story and god I wish it was made into a live-action feature film :x, Uncharted series boasts some of the most realistic story telling (in terms of acting quality and believable dialogue) in video game history not to mention the cinematic way they (the devs) made the game. I could go on but I digress...


Point is there is no way you can possibly image to "sum up" why people liked a certain game, that is the beauty of entertainment, and as an entertainer myself I see this on the stage all the time; when someone laughs at something that wasn't funny for the rest of the audience, but for that one person, he/she connected with the line and the moment that no one else felt. So I find it difficult to believe you (as others seem to as well) when you make the incredibly bold claim that you personally know why I--or anyone--liked a game more than another.

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Originally Posted by Keisuna

Wait, so now you're blaming the increase in graphic fidelity? I don't understand. Yes, it's a factor in how we experience games, but it's not why the FF games went downhill. It's much more than how many pixels or polygons they had to work with, it was what they did with them.

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It's not "either or". Denying that the great leap in graphical quality going from SNES to PSX and later PS2 had nothing to do with how the franchise was perceived is quite a claim. On the other hand the jump from PS2 to PS3, while still large, already had signs of less graphical improvement for added polygons. Not to mention the first HD FF came four years after the generation had started.

What is it with your vague claim there? If I knew what you were thinking it would be easier to reply properly, but now I would just be shooting in the dark.

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Also to make any claims to as why a certain person likes a certain game over another is absurd

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So to state that age and life experience has nothing to do with it is completely absurd? I disagree, as it certainly does. To state that they somehow don't- now that is a bold claim.

Your first point does not really resonate with anything. Is the point you're trying to make that subsequent playthroughs are completely similar and just as good and memorable as the first one? Maybe you live on a completely different plane of existence than I, then, as I have never heard of a person who can play the same game twice and experience it the same way both times.

I have played Xenogears. Religion in a game, it must be good when they are using such theme! At least when compared to other games. The stakes are high.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

The whole franchise is based on a denial. People played these simple stories while they were young enough to appreciate them and that experience is being directly applied to anything that has come afterwards.

How is it possible for some people to keep FFX in high regard while other people think of it as the beginning of the end? It is because the whole subjectivity is what makes this franchise for each and all of us and it is directly related to our stage of life and accummulated experience at the point these games were experienced.

In fact not much has happened in the last decades. And to a great deal of people fond of the franchise, that precisely is the problem. It happened with FFVII to people who had played FFIV to VI, it happened with X to people who had played VII to IX and it happened with XIII to people who had played X. However now we have external factors to blame that people can use as a scapegoat like the departure of Sakaguchi and Squaresoft becoming SE, also Wada. They make for a great excuse for people to apply a creative fallacy to something they don't quite understand themselves. We are always looking for a reason for anything, and this franchise is the best example of a victim of that sort of thing.



In that case there should be no arguments about stories in general. Every story should be considered equal. That's not the case, though, as stories can be perceived objectically as well as subjectively which justifies comparing and analyzing them.

Kojima's productions can, also, be analyzed and when all is said and done it is not surprising that the end result does not hold up to the perceived grandness of his supposedly good storytelling. On the other hand MGS2 for example excels if not in storytelling, in an attempt to make a point about the dangers of media and its usage in general. This goes way beyond just the game itself though and starts from the early footage from pre-launch (with Kojima fooling everyone about Snake's role in the game) and continuing up until the dialogue with Raiden and Snake that sums up Kojima's whole point with the game.

"Why didn't you tell me the whole shadow moses project was all a lie??"
"You never asked."

Just like people believed that Snake was going to be the protagonist just because Kojima showed them some edited footage with Snake in it.

Brilliant. But anyway, MGS4 is a retcon after retcon. Still better than what the FF franchise has ever come up with though.

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i believe snake was also the first non bad guy homosexual as well which is something SE hasnt even come close to portraying.
anyway.
take the twilight series for instance. its massively successful but ive even heard fans who've read many other books even comment on Twilights horribly basic writing style yet other people consider it a good book.
there are some things that cannot be left up to opinion - racism for example. bad story telling for another example. im sorry but the twilight series is not good literature. your opinion does not matter, it is fact. the same goes for the trite story telling in old and new RPGs.

I guess after FF7, when I thought "Final Fantasy," I thought "classic RPG elements, amazing story, new innovative mechanics" for the most part. XIV is on its way with 2.0 from the looks of it. All we can do is wait and support it.

i miss Opera house scenes :-(

Not everything has to be about battles.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnought

i believe snake was also the first non bad guy homosexual as well which is something SE hasnt even come close to portraying.
anyway.
take the twilight series for instance. its massively successful but ive even heard fans who've read many other books even comment on Twilights horribly basic writing style yet other people consider it a good book.
there are some things that cannot be left up to opinion - racism for example. bad story telling for another example. im sorry but the twilight series is not good literature. your opinion does not matter, it is fact. the same goes for the trite story telling in old and new RPGs.

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What is... I don't even.... What?



This is for Betel.

You seem to consider yourself insightful and intelligent. I won't dispute your claim. So, enlighten me. Have you never enjoyed something, because you enjoyed it, and to hell with others' opinion on the matter? You're enjoyment belongs to you and no one else. There are many flaws in everything, as no one is perfect. Yet I somehow still absolutely love those things.

In gaming, do I love FFT because it was one of the first PSX games, or that it was my first tactics-based game? Did I love it because it was one of the few games my mother and I both enjoyed, and gave us a something to relate to as a child and adult?

The answer. Yes. And many many more factors. To claim that it was a good or bad game in, and of itself, and in relation to others, both in the franchise, series, and platform, or without, because of those factors. Well that's arrogance and ignorance wrapped up in a snuggie.

It was a game I enjoyed for thousands of reasons, all the while being cudgeled in the face with its glaring flaws. Localization, poor mechanics of the PSX's loading, the imbalance of OP classes/characters, etc.

None of that detracts on how I perceive the game though. I've played through it a good 100+ times since it's release in '97, at the age of 8. I've become more aware of every facet of the game, game and bad, and though nostalgia is there, I wouldn't assume to state it as anything more or less than I enjoyed from it.

FFVI(III) is my favorite in the numbered series. FFXIII is my least favorite. FFIX is one of my favorite PSX-and-onward games of all time(last on the console even).

I could continue, but my point is this. None of that matters when it boils down to the game being good or bad. A games popularity, how well it was received, is a minor statistic on a very complex formula to what makes a good or bad game. I know many who would claim that Justin Bieber is the greatest artist ever conceived, and they would be wrong. I know many who would claim that Justin Bieber is talented and successful, and they would be right.

Try to keep your statements objective, but remember that this is a subjective world, and no matter your opinion on something, it is transient. One person's fact is another person's opinion. One person's opinion is another person's fact. Don't overstep your territory.

That being said, I agree with what someone said a few pages back. Often times I agree with what you're saying almost to a T, and then times like this, where you have yet to reread your own and others' posts with a fresh perspective, you seem to be trolling.

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Originally Posted by Corrderio

I expect something I haven't seen in a FF in a long time: [SIZE="6"]Deep[/SIZE] storyline with interesting characters and character development. Last FF that ever grabbed my attention like that was 9.

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Since when has FF ever had a "deep" storyline? None of the games I've played have ever, EVER indicated that the storyline tried to be something that it wasn't, or "deep". The only game I've yet to complete is 4. 8 maybe tried to be deep, but that just ended up as a convoluted mess. This is not a "deep" franchise. It never was, and hopefully it never will be.

There is plenty of character development in the more recent FF titles, and interesting characters are completely subjective.

As much as I enjoyed 9, you referenced it having a deep storyline and character development. Aside from the four main characters; Stiener, Zidane, Vivi, and Garnet, there is a complete lack of development. And the story isn't very complex, in fact it was simplified as homage to the earlier games in the franchise. So I don't know what you're trying to say about more recent titles.

Allow me to dispel some mythology.


Myth:

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

You know how people seem to hate FFXI and all it stands for? XII was specifically designed "as how XI was originally intended to be designed"..battle system and interaction wise.

So it was very close to FFXI, thus the hate for it, since the game itself was amazing -- The only issue I had was the dialog.

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Reality:
FFXI Metacritic Score: 85 / 100
FFXII Metacritic Score: 92 / 100

Yeah, that's right, not only was FFXI well liked, but FFXII was liked even more.

Myth:

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

Gonna pop in here and make a bold assumption bases on common logic:

Final Fantasy X sold well
Final Fantasy X was highly liked among the general playerbase
Final Fantasy X was a breakthrough in gameplaying
Final Fantasy X-2 was "cheaply" put together
Final Fantasy X-2 was not well received by the general playerbase
Final Fantasy X-2 did not sell well

General consumers did not get on board with the -2 idea.

Final Fantasy XIII sold well
Final Fantasy XIII was harshly criticized
Final Fantasy XIII didn't offer any kind of groundbreaking elements to gaming

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Reality:

FFX Metacritic Score: 92 / 100
FFX-2 Metacritic Score: 85 / 100
FFXIII Metacritic Score: 83 / 100

All the games were well received. They even sold well.

FFX: 7,950,000
FFX-2: 5,210,000
FFXIII: 6,350,000 (PS3, 360)

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Originally Posted by AmyRae

Reality:
FFXI Metacritic Score: 85 / 100
FFXII Metacritic Score: 92 / 100

Yeah, that's right, not only was FFXI well liked, but FFXII was liked even more.

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XI was well received, but spending any time on these forums you'd think otherwise, especially in regards to XIV using anything that XI did, despite the fact XII was basically a spin on it and did well. So I'm not exactly sure what myth you were trying to dispel with their posts, unless you have a history of ignoring the obvious and the obvious is despite the fact X, X-2, XI, XII and XIII/XIII-2 did well, people are always criticizing it and saying they're the worst in the series.

XIII was enjoyable, yet why are there always people saying it's the worst FF to come out?

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Originally Posted by AmyRae

Allow me to dispel some mythology.


Myth:


Reality:
FFXI Metacritic Score: 85 / 100
FFXII Metacritic Score: 92 / 100

Yeah, that's right, not only was FFXI well liked, but FFXII was liked even more.

Myth:


Reality:

FFX Metacritic Score: 92 / 100
FFX-2 Metacritic Score: 85 / 100
FFXIII Metacritic Score: 83 / 100

All the games were well received. They even sold well.

FFX: 7,950,000
FFX-2: 5,210,000
FFXIII: 6,350,000 (PS3, 360)

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You've proved my "myth" to fact, by posting that. Just wanted to let you know. XIII did sell well. XIII was harshly reviewed by the consumer not a metacritic, the user reviews are lower. Also my scale portrays what you posted just about to a T. So if you don't mind, please finish reading my post and/or quote me entirely because you just made yourself look silly, since we were saying the same thing.

I just found out a lot of XIII-2 was just outsourced from tri-ace. That's like Da Vinci asking for Matisse to help with anatomy. Also Tales of Xilia outsold XIII-2 in Japan. The first time Tales has done it though the numbers weren't that big to beat.

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Originally Posted by Seif

I just found out a lot of XIII-2 was just outsourced from tri-ace. That's like Da Vinci asking for Matisse to help with anatomy. Also Tales of Xilia outsold XIII-2 in Japan. The first time Tales has done it though the numbers weren't that big to beat.

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Tales BARELY outsold XIII-2 at the time the numbers were released. The Tales of games have actually been getting better.

/sigh No 'Tales' will ever be another Tales of Symphonia though :s

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

/sigh No 'Tales' will ever be another Tales of Symphonia though :s

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Tales of Graces is better to me <.<

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Originally Posted by Elexia

The Tales of games have actually been getting worse.

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Honestly, 2D Tales = Best Tales
I hate that the fanbase is falling in love with these spammy no-need-for-strategy games they've been coming out with lately.

Destiny 2 is still tops in my mind. Barbatos was such a great boss even though he's almost soulcrushingly difficult in the 3rd battle if you don't already know how to handle him. But that's what made it so great, you had to actually work out a way to beat him instead of just zerging like all the bosses in the latest games.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

And yet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_G...ion_and_legacy

It's not about people "not branching out enough" it's about what you personally define as a good story or not, but it can't be denied that video game companies have done very good story telling (Square included.)



This is true about everything in life.

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Hideo Kojima needs an editor that uses a chainsaw IMO.

DL's OST for ff13-2 and I've already deleted about 40 of the tracks.

What have you become SE.

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Originally Posted by viion

DL's OST for ff13-2 and I've already deleted about 40 of the tracks.

What have you become SE.

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The OST is fine, it fits the theme of the game, much like XIII-2. Just because you don't like it means that SE went downhill. I thought the XIII-2 OST was fantastic, save the Crazy Chocobo theme, but that was uematsu, who most people longed for to work on a FF ost again.

This post is written in response to the posts of Betelgeuzah and Malakhim, although I will not be quoting any specific part of them.

I was 20 when FFVII came to America. 21 before I was able to play it. Before that, I had never heard of Final Fantasy. Although I was amazed by what was then cutting edge graphics and 3D world like everyone else, it was the story and gameplay that truly caught my attention. I love that game, and it's successor, so much that I have played each several times over the years.

The notion that appreciation for the story and game goes in hand with age (and to some degree implying the level of one's education), I think is a little bit insulting to the players here, even if unintentional. While I would hardly consider myself to be an intellectual, I am by no means uneducated in literature. When I was younger, I was an avid reader, not only of (then) modern books, but of many classical stories as well. I was the only person in my high school English class who didn't need Shakespeare explained to me. The only reason I do not read as much today, (or for that matter, play games as much as I used to) is because I have very poor eyesight, and my eyes strain easily.

I wouldn't say that FF stories have as much depth as a classical book. Movies are not able to recreate the depth a book can give, imo (and thus why VOs are not the greatest thing to happen to games since sliced bread, again imo). But you can certainly create something very special within a game, being it's own medium. And I can very much recognize the craftsmanship that goes into FF games, both in gameplay, and in story. Even in the titles I personally didn't care for such as XII.

If one cannot recognize the depth that went into VII and VIII's story, then I would surmise that you weren't looking hard enough, or that it at least went over your head. The ending of FFVII is probably the easiest to point out for example. That confused a lot of people for a long time. There was never supposed to be a definitive answer as to whether Midgar suvived that day. Obviously the planet did, and Red XIII did. There was also no definitive answer as to whether Aeris/Aerith had anything to do with it the planet's survival. If she had not have died, would the planet have been saved, or was her death truly senseless? Did she call forth the lifestream, or did the planet save itself? It wasn't until later that official stories were written to answer these questions and more, because of popular demand. But these things were originally left out on purpose, for the players to interpret for themselves.

In conclusion... my choice of stories and games has changed little throughout my life. There are things that I understand better now than I did as a child, but it didn't change my enjoyment of those things. In any case, I wasn't a child when I became a Final Fantasy fan in the first place, which renders that idea as moot in regards to myself. The only thing that changed as I played FFVII over and over was my continued understanding of the story and game. There was enough depth to it that there were things I missed or that went over my head the first or second time through, and I appreciated the craftmanship of it all the more.

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

The OST is fine, it fits the theme of the game, much like XIII-2. Just because you don't like it means that SE went downhill. I thought the XIII-2 OST was fantastic, save the Crazy Chocobo theme, but that was uematsu, who most people longed for to work on a FF ost again.

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Dont get why you're comparing XIII-2 with XIII-2 lol.

And yes if I dont like it, it obviously means SE have failed, because obviously when I am stating an opinion it is fact and everyone thinks the same as me when I have a personal opinion.

I didn't say the stories weren't good(if you'll notice, I gave what might seem like borderline irrational praise to FFXIII's story and characters). I said they are what they are, and what they are is only a few notches above something written for a teenager/young adult(incidentally a large portion of the series' fanbase). That isn't to say they CAN'T write something "adult", in fact I think the stories have been moving towards that direction since FFX if ever so slightly.

Jennestia, you're honestly going to point out the series that has a dude living inside another dude through his ARM and classy names such as "Big Momma" as amazing subject matter? I love me some Metal Gear Solid 3(and that does have few decent plot points) and the fact that there's actually a message behind the series, but come on now.

With every Final Fantasy I've ever played (except maybe X-2), I got sucked into them like a good book. I felt for the characters, was eager to learn what happened next, and felt a sense of accomplishment when I uncovered more of the story. When the game was over, I felt both happy and sad. Even when I quit FFXI after only completing Chains of Promathia (which was a blast!), I was saddened that I wouldn't see the story end, and still am after many years. RPGs are about escaping reality for a little bit, after all. Entering a world that isn't your own and where you don't have to abide by the rules that bind you 24/7 in real life.

That's what I want most from FFXIV, is that drive to know what happens next, the NEED to find out the fate of your character. So far it isn't there, but I am hopeful.

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

dude living inside another dude through his.

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go finish MGS4 and then rephrase that please.

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Originally Posted by SnickleWhiskers

go finish MGS4 and then rephrase that please.

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"I don't know

Therefore nanomachines"

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

"I don't know

Therefore nanomachines"

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To Malakhim as well.

Your being awfully closed-minded about what makes something good. I may be reading into your statement a bit too heavily, but to me it seems that you think damn near every game that has ever come out is cliche' or hokey in some way.

Well I hate to break it to you, but so is damn near every single movie, book, and work of art ever conceived. We are coming to the era of recreating works because of the lack of truly unique and 'new' ideas. IMO, Hollywood should really stop making super hero remakes, and sequels to otherwise good movies. (sillly example: The Lion King 2...Umm... Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.)

Science fiction is meant to be outlandish. Otherwise it would be "slightly exaggerated science."

Metal Gear Solid 2 has the best script ever written in video game history.
I think the story proved FAR too complex for the fans of Metal Gear Solid. Hideo must have realized this when he made MGS4.

Or maybe I'm overestimating his writing abilities..
Regardless, MGS1 and MGS2 are works of art.

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Originally Posted by Chezen

This post is written in response to the posts of Betelgeuzah and Malakhim, although I will not be quoting any specific part of them.

I was 20 when FFVII came to America. 21 before I was able to play it. Before that, I had never heard of Final Fantasy. Although I was amazed by what was then cutting edge graphics and 3D world like everyone else, it was the story and gameplay that truly caught my attention. I love that game, and it's successor, so much that I have played each several times over the years.

The notion that appreciation for the story and game goes in hand with age (and to some degree implying the level of one's education), I think is a little bit insulting to the players here, even if unintentional. While I would hardly consider myself to be an intellectual, I am by no means uneducated in literature. When I was younger, I was an avid reader, not only of (then) modern books, but of many classical stories as well. I was the only person in my high school English class who didn't need Shakespeare explained to me. The only reason I do not read as much today, (or for that matter, play games as much as I used to) is because I have very poor eyesight, and my eyes strain easily.

I wouldn't say that FF stories have as much depth as a classical book. Movies are not able to recreate the depth a book can give, imo (and thus why VOs are not the greatest thing to happen to games since sliced bread, again imo). But you can certainly create something very special within a game, being it's own medium. And I can very much recognize the craftsmanship that goes into FF games, both in gameplay, and in story. Even in the titles I personally didn't care for such as XII.

If one cannot recognize the depth that went into VII and VIII's story, then I would surmise that you weren't looking hard enough, or that it at least went over your head. The ending of FFVII is probably the easiest to point out for example. That confused a lot of people for a long time. There was never supposed to be a definitive answer as to whether Midgar suvived that day. Obviously the planet did, and Red XIII did. There was also no definitive answer as to whether Aeris/Aerith had anything to do with it the planet's survival. If she had not have died, would the planet have been saved, or was her death truly senseless? Did she call forth the lifestream, or did the planet save itself? It wasn't until later that official stories were written to answer these questions and more, because of popular demand. But these things were originally left out on purpose, for the players to interpret for themselves.

In conclusion... my choice of stories and games has changed little throughout my life. There are things that I understand better now than I did as a child, but it didn't change my enjoyment of those things. In any case, I wasn't a child when I became a Final Fantasy fan in the first place, which renders that idea as moot in regards to myself. The only thing that changed as I played FFVII over and over was my continued understanding of the story and game. There was enough depth to it that there were things I missed or that went over my head the first or second time through, and I appreciated the craftmanship of it all the more.

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quoted for the truth +a million

if you can't see great story telling in FF games, then you have a problem identifying storys

FF7 had a great story line.
Deep? Sure. You could have given the script to someone with far better grammatical efficiency, and it would have toppled any claims about FF7 being simple.

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Originally Posted by DrekeLamorte

IMO, Hollywood should really stop making super hero remakes

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noooooooooooooo dont do dat, i luv them!!