Sorry Yoshi, but if you award the best weapon in the game by winning the lottery...

I tried the new Diadem yesterday. 60min of mindless fates farming for 1 high allagan leather (5K gill on the MB). I don't understand what should be regarded as "fun" here.

And this should reward iLVL280 weapons. ok. I would understand if Diadem was some kind of content that helps you to decently gear you secondary class or your first lv60 job so you can tackle harder contents, but right now every single decision made by SE seems random. Plus, it looks like they don't care at all about hardcore-midcore players. I can understand that if they want lots of subscriptions (i.e. money) then they need to cater for the casual players...still, this doesn't mean that they can just throw some small bone every now and then ...

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

That gear would've been replaced by NQ/HQ vendor gear, green dungeon gear regardless. Why does it matter?

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The point is, right now, it's still relevant to Heavensward.
Obviously once Stormblood is out everything will be irrelevant, but until then, it should have remained the strongest.

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Originally Posted by ShinMetsu

You go and do something you do not enjoy, to be BiS for Stormblood, which is gonna last until.. level 65 most likely?
Now you complain that you could be BiS until 67? Not even full BiS, only the weapon BiS until 67.

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Erm...where did he say any of this in the post you quoted? He just said he expected anima to be BiS weapon from the last step completion UNTIL SB. He never said "during SB", he said it was supposed to be BiS until SB launch day.

Which is how the relic was in ARR. It was the best weapon from completion until HW launched.

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Originally Posted by ShinMetsu

I feel like it's wrong, cheap and dirty to go around and blame any of that on SE now.

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I feel like this^ is way over the top. You don't need to exaggerate like he stole money out of his best friend's wallet or something just because he voiced his criticism to SE, as a paying customer, that he didn't like something that they did.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

You're assuming you know the formula, and upon which the weapons should be valued. That's the problem. You are not in the developer's position to make that call, therefore you're making a very highly subjective opinion based soley on a narrow viewpoint.

What you are asserting is that Stats are the only determining value of an item. And this is patently false. Weapons signify accomplishments through more than just their statistical means, which EXPIRE every time there is an ilevel jump. However, each item among this chain and beyond it has features that are additional to this base value.

There is a reason why it's said that "Glamour is the true endgame." Because essentially it is. Anima weapons have a reduced statistical lifespan due to when its final form is implemented - but in trade, it has some of the highest glamour work in the game - including partial effects. Same for Alexander and its unique look and moving parts.

Coven weapons are absent of these factors, and have absolutely no lasting value past the expiration point of ilvl 280 stats - which will, to put this to point, expire before you complete Stormblood's storyline.

A quested item, or dungeon item, you will get, during Stormblood's in-game will beat out your Alexander Weapon, your Anima, and this Coven Weapon. But the difference is, you won't be transferring your glamour from the last of these three to over to this quested weapon.

As I said before, those who are legitimately upset by this need to reassess their perspectives. All this is, is enticement for players to play Diadem. The stats gained by these weapons, this late into the game, is irrelevant in the long term, and minor impact in the short term.

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I actually explained the formula, several times now. That being "Anything worth getting in this game requires different combinations of time, skill, and effort." Never once did I say the stats determine the value of the item, so no, that is incorrect. I am however placing the value of the item if you will, upon whether the means of getting it is proportional or not.

Let me put it this way: Currently, the "low" end of this patch's gear tiers is 250. Tome gear/weapons are 260, upgradable to 270. Would you be motivated to raid Creator Savage if the rewards were i250? Let's exclude any personal motivations such as love for raiding or the old "just for fun" excuse. I've been blunt about it before: winning, progressing, and earning rewards are fun. That's why it's a staple of gaming itself. That said, would players push themselves to take on the toughest challenges the game has to offer (I'm aware, yes, that Creator Savage is the easiest of the Alexander raid tiers, but we're speaking strictly of the current patch/raid tier) if only for gear that is effectively eclipsed by other rewards more easily obtained?

This is the issue, and I'm glad other people see it. Accepting that something that, by nature, ought to be a high reward is available through less involved means breaks the formula as I stated before. If you got it day 1, it didn't take time. If you were dead for most of the emergency mission, and just so happen to be the lucky winner, it didn't take effort. And compared to even the "easy" relic, Diadem content doesn't take skill. So then, where is the logic in this reward?

We agree at least that it is nothing more than incentive to try the "new" Diadem, but it is a big step in the wrong direction. Accepting it, justifying it, or at the worst, staying silent about it is effectively saying you agree with it. By that logic, this will be okay if perhaps they can simply throw something in as a higher-value, low-percent chance drop, earned via simpler means than the hardest/most involved rewards require at any given time, right? The 280 weapon itself isn't the problem, the wild defiance of established formula, and possibility of a dangerous precedent is the real issue. Some of us see it, but others just see people overreacting to an item. Please look again carefully.

When you put timing of this release aside and ignore the fact of level cap, iLV cap increasing the decision to release i280 weapons in this manner is extremely bad game design. For a game that caters to a range of players, casual-midcore-hardcore, diadem seems to miss the mark with each. It's literally all over the place. Diadem doesn't reward any scripture so casual players still have to decide how to invest their limited time. Furthermore, emergency missions are WAY overtuned for people who cannot organize multiple groups and counter mechanics. The best rewards are out reach to midcore and hardcore because i280 weapons have many layers of RNG to obtain. I thought they said they learned from their mistakes in 1.0 diadem. I do not think they did.

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Originally Posted by Lunafreya

We've said it time and time again that the relic is BiS until Stormblood. What don't you get?

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Why should it be BiS? Who expected it to be BiS, seriously? They've repeatedly said that the relic would always be behind the raid weapon.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Why should it be BiS? Who expected it to be BiS, seriously? They've repeatedly said that the relic would always be behind the raid weapon.

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Yes, but the issue here is even the raid weapons are outclassed by Diadem weapons.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

PSA: You will die and everything you do in your life will be meaningless.

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Seriously, what's with you and comparing everything in the game to the deep meaning of life ?

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

That being "Anything worth getting in this game requires different combinations of time, skill, and effort."

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And the Diadem Weapon trumps absolutely everything when it comes to average time requirement.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Would you be motivated to raid Creator Savage if the rewards were i250?

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Would you be motivated to takcle critical missions with 3 pick-up alliances if the rewards were lower to what you already have ?

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Originally Posted by Nerisu

Yes, but the issue here is even the raid weapons are outclassed by Diadem weapons.

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Raid weapons are. Yet, all the other pieces from raids are better. So, if you want the perfect full set, you still need to raid.

Consider this as if raids would only drop some items, for example, armor, while weapon and maybe accessories could be dropped by something else...which you more diverse content to tackle instead of putting absolutely everything in only 4 instances. I don't understand how people could still defend that it's better to only have one thing to do over and over...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Consider this as if raids would only drop some items, for example, armor, while weapon and maybe accessories could be dropped by something else...which you more diverse content to tackle instead of putting absolutely everything in only 4 instances. I don't understand how people could still defend that it's better to only have one thing to do over and over...

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No, I'm not saying it's better. What happened is there's currently no other option to get i280 weapons but to enter the Diadem over and over and over and over again when they could have just turned it as an alternative way to get i270-275 weapons. Give those who already have i275 weapons an incentive to get it by making it look as unique as possible with glowy effects for glamour.

The reason I'm personally falling over these new weapons is because people grinded for weeks, maybe even months to get their relic/raid weapons. As far as they're concerned, they're done. They have the best weapon in the game for their class, and it will stay that way until the expansion launches. Hooray!

Then, only 2 weeks later SE drops a bomb on us with a new weapon thats now suddenly BiS. Way to reward all those weeks/months of hard work/grinding, when people can only enjoy the end product for about 2 weeks >.>

And before people react with "gear constantly gets improved, white gear in the new xpac will outgear what u have now blablablabla". True. Very true. But until that day comes, relics/raid weapons should be rewarded with being the best weapons you can have, solely for the fact that people have been working towards those during all of Heavensward.

I understand that SE wants to give people something to do until June, but this is not the way to do it.

I don't get the uproar honestly, they will be completely irrelevant within just a few months now.

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Originally Posted by Nerisu

What happened is there's currently no other option to get i280 weapons but to enter the Diadem over and over and over and over again when they could have just turned it as an alternative way to get i270-275 weapons.

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So ? Back in 3.4, there was only one option to get an i275 weapon. And the incentive is the strenght of the weapon. There are already tons of glamour option.

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Originally Posted by xLucia

The reason I'm personally falling over these new weapons is because people grinded for weeks, maybe even months to get their relic/raid weapons. As far as they're concerned, they're done. They have the best weapon in the game for their class, and it will stay that way until the expansion launches. Hooray!

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Considering early raiders had an i275 weapon for 6 months, it's the exact same timing as switching to the new raid. In fact, one major complain between ARR and HW was the horrendously long time with no new goal to achieve. As for Anima owners, keep in mind that Diadem was supposed to come at the same time than Lux stage. So, they were never supposed to have the absolute best weapon in the first place.

Any lower ilvl for the weapon, and people wouldn't even have tried Diadem.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Considering early raiders had an i275 weapon for 6 months, it's the exact same timing as switching to the new raid. In fact, one major complain between ARR and HW was the horrendously long time with no new goal to achieve. As for Anima owners, keep in mind that Diadem was supposed to come at the same time than Lux stage. So, they were never supposed to have the absolute best weapon in the first place.

Any lower ilvl for the weapon, and people wouldn't even have tried Diadem.

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They should have maybe extended the relic quests then, or added more raids to last until the end of xpac =/

It's funny, if you have a relic and/or anima, the i280 shouldn't matter because of it's rarity. Yet, obviously, it should matter, or it would never have been put in the game as Diadem bait. SE wants us to care about it so we actually go to the Diadem...but wants us to ignore it's existance in terms of invalidating the anima and relic. Can't have it both ways. It exists, or it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Oriens

^^

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I agree with you, but do believe that Diadem awards either 60 Lore (forgot) and 30 Scripture on completion of all the party missions.

I think having that super rare "Check me out!" weapon or armor piece would be great! All mmo's have these. About time FFXIV jumped on board.

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Originally Posted by xLucia

They should have maybe extended the relic quests then, or added more raids to last until the end of xpac =/

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So that only those would aready partage in raid or the anima would do it ? What about every other player ?

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Originally Posted by Xerek

SE wants us to care about it so we actually go to the Diadem...but wants us to ignore it's existance in terms of invalidating the anima and relic. Can't have it both ways. It exists, or it doesn't.

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Yes, we can, because it's rarity is attractive, and it doesn't invalidate anything. Seriouly, with that perception, why do you even do content since whatever reward it offered would always be replaced 6 months after ?

Would you be happy if the Diadem extremely rarely drop an item required for a quest that upgrade your Anima or you Savage weapon to i280 ?

Bye OP! Don't let the door hit you in the face when you come back!

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Originally Posted by Xerek

It's funny, if you have a relic and/or anima, the i280 shouldn't matter because of it's rarity. Yet, obviously, it should matter, or it would never have been put in the game as Diadem bait. SE wants us to care about it so we actually go to the Diadem...but wants us to ignore it's existance in terms of invalidating the anima and relic. Can't have it both ways. It exists, or it doesn't.

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There's really no good way to tell your fanbase "we couldn't think of any other way to make Diadem actively ran than to slap the absolute strongest weapon in the game in it behind stupidly strong RNg so you'll never actually get it".

It's the worse kind of bait tactic, and I'm disappointed SE has to resort to it instead of just making Diadem fun to play.

Ah so here is the thread :) agreed! Less RNG (or tokens) with casual catch-up gear. This is a lottery within a lottery within a lottery. Come... on...

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Why should it be BiS? Who expected it to be BiS, seriously? They've repeatedly said that the relic would always be behind the raid weapon.

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This is so not true. Everyone knows Zeta was BiS until HW.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I actually explained the formula, several times now.

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The formula you assume. Again, you're missing the counterpoint. You have made the presume that anything worth of 'value'. Yet you continually cite things like ilvl as your refrence for that value. This is patently incorrect, so much that you shy away from this point when I call you out on it.

The Diadem weapons have no value when you disregard statistics. The only way you can value them is if you value their stats. They have no aesthetic value, no nostalgic value and no social value. Therefore, the only way you can argue that these weapons is due to their statical value. You even spend most of your post that you tried to tell me that Statistics wasn't the nomer here, justifying it statically. So you're lieing to me, or yourself in this regard. Take some time to revisit your argument and decide which.

So you don't ,once again, miss the point. Here's the sum of this: You make two critical mistakes in your argument.

First, in assuming that anything of 'value' in this game takes time to achieve. That's simply not true - Several highly valued glamours are completely potluck in obtaining them through their available methods. Again, your argument ONLY has weight if the only thing you value is statistics.

Second, making the presumption that the Coven weapons 'eclipse the value' of Alexander and Anima weapons. They don't. You'll be tossing the Coven weapons as soon as you get better stats. People will be using their Alexander and Anima weapon glamours potentially for years.

The only value of the Coven weapons is a temporary stat boost - which will be statistically irrelevant for Stormblood's endgame. It. Has. No. Value.

So no only is your presumption that anything of value in this game is 'worked for' as opposed to having to be lucky false. It's also not in any real danger here. Slippery slope arguments are called logical fallacies for a reason.

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Originally Posted by Lunafreya

This is so not true. Everyone knows Zeta was BiS until HW.

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I have to question the value of this - why are you so focused on the statistical value of Relic Weapons? The actual window of BiS of a Zeta was actually incredibly small. By the time you get this "BiS" weapon, if that's your aim. Most people who will get their Endgame run completed before the next expansion has done so - the stats themselves have no value beyond that point.

In fact, it can be argued, that the Gordion, Midian, and Alexander weapons suffered from the same problem - their statistical value is self referential. You've already beaten the only content you'd ever use it against before it becomes irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

It's the worse kind of bait tactic

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As proven by the really short lifespan of all Diablo games, I guess ?
Or how FFXI remain active until now ?

We're not into the second expansion yet and there is already a deep concern about how FFXIV lacks long term goals. This is exactly what the game needs, as long as it does not only rely on that.

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Originally Posted by Remus

Yoshida says Anima is still the strongest weapon :^)

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Don't spread misinformation. That was a translation error.

What Yoshi meant was that you are better off sticking with your relic rather than counting on a lucky weapon drop that might or not have the right stats and must also be for the job you want.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

As proven by the really short lifespan of all Diablo games, I guess ?
Or how FFXI remain active until now ?

We're not into the second expansion yet and there is already a deep concern about how FFXIV lacks long term goals. This is exactly what the game needs, as long as it does not only rely on that.

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Gear drops like candy in Diablogames tho, so you're constantly looking at new gear to see if it's an upgrade. Placing such a random reward as the main attraction to a very dull piece of content, it's obvious that it's pretty much the only way they could think of actually luring people in there. Instead of maybe trying a bit harder to make something interesting and fun? They've had a year to do it, is this REALLY the best they could do?

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

Don't spread misinformation. That was a translation error.

What Yoshi meant was that you are better off sticking with your relic rather than counting on a lucky weapon drop that might or not have the right stats and must also be for the job you want.

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Was it really a mistranslation? Hmmm...

Prior to the releases of the last anima step and diadem 2.0, I believe people preferred using i270 DRK Augmented Shire weapon over the i275 Alexandrian one because of the secondaries. And this is despite the i275 Alexandrian weapon having more Weapon Damage.

Would the same hold true when the i275 BIS relic is compared with the i280 diadem weapon when the i280 has bad substats from the rng? (meaning the i275 would be preferrable to the i280 in this case?)

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Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

Prior to the releases of the last anima step and diadem 2.0, I believe people preferred using i270 DRK Augmented Shire weapon over the i275 Alexandrian one because of the secondaries. And this is despite the i275 Alexandrian weapon having more Weapon Damage.

Would the same hold true when the i275 BIS relic is compared with the i280 diadem weapon when the i280 has bad substats from the rng? (meaning the i275 would be preferrable to the i280 in this case?)

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The i280s are so powerful that they are almost on par with the i275s without substats. Add to that the i280s have about 100 more substat points then the i275s and it's almost impossible to get one that isn't better then the i275s.

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Originally Posted by Xerek

The i280s are so powerful that they are almost on par with the i275s without substats. Add to that the i280s have about 100 more substat points then the i275s and it's almost impossible to get one that isn't better then the i275s.

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tank weapons with acc or parry are weighted less than the i275. So probably quite a lot of them will end up being awful

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

tank weapons with acc or parry are weighted less than the i275. So probably quite a lot of them will end up being awful

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Awful? The weapons are almost on par without any substats at all. Then add on 100 more substat points then a i275, and if even 1/4 of them end up on one or more useful stats, it'll still be superior to the i275s.

These are closer to i285 or i290, in truth.

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Originally Posted by Xerek

Awful? The weapons are almost on par without any substats at all. Then add on 100 more substat points then a i275, and if even 1/4 of them end up on one or more useful stats, it'll still be superior to the i275s.

These are closer to i285 or i290, in truth.

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Well yes, but unless you get the substats, they aren't.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Well yes, but unless you get the substats, they aren't.

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Again, you get 3-6 substats, and 300 points distributed between them. If even one of those substats is decent, you have something superior to an i275. In other words, almost all of the i280s are superior to the i275s. Can there be a i280 that isn't? Yes, but they would be very rare, a perfect RNG storm of bad luck.

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Originally Posted by Xerek

Again, you get 3-6 substats, and 300 points distributed between them. If even one of those substats is decent, you have something superior to an i275. In other words, almost all of the i280s are superior to the i275s. Can there be a i280 that isn't? Yes, but they would be very rare, a perfect RNG storm of bad luck.

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You can get them with 0 substats. Or acc/parry. or low substats. Those weapons are all not better than the i275 relics. My understanding is getting anything with decent substats is the perfect storm of good luck.

I really, really wanna drop that weapon to exchange for spoils ^^
I don't give a sh*t for those 5 ilv difference. I'm sticking to my Anima till SB

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Originally Posted by Blazinhart

I really, really wanna drop that weapon to exchange for spoils ^^
I don't give a sh*t for those 5 ilv difference. I'm sticking to my Anima till SB

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Unless its for my secondary job, blm, i will turn for spoils also, if i get it i will record me turning it for spoils and buying pegasus mount/minion hehehhehe, the sweaty tryhard's tears will feed me lol

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

snip

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The Coven weapon did achieve something though, it got the record of killing a community in the shortest time. It didn't even get released and killed the speed running community as soon as it was found out that the stats on them were stupidly high. Why and how it did this you'll have to look up yourself, it's at a lot of places.

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Originally Posted by Krindor

The Coven weapon did achieve something though, it got the record of killing a community in the shortest time. It didn't even get released and killed the speed running community as soon as it was found out that the stats on them were stupidly high. Why and how it did this you'll have to look up yourself, it's at a lot of places.

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No. It's nothing new. The community always finds differences in opinion and expound upon them to dramatic levels. The arguments I see here have sparks no different than FFXI's arguments over expansion difficulty in accessibility, the disbalance of population and classes in Aion, and the similar tone of endgame complains in SWTOR, Guild Wars 2, and Wildstar.

If anything FFXIV has a community stronger than those other I mentioned, though some will argue that FFXI's was closer knit.

If human beings can share words, they'll argue. That's just our nature.

I don't take the complains heard on forums seriously unless I see equal impact within the actual game itself. And honestly, it's too late in the cycle for that to happen. Statics that were falling apart were falling apart to begin with. Those who quit working on Animas were likely never to complete them. Those that still have the will to stick it out will do so - and most who complain will go about their days. You'll have a few exceptions to each of these, but that's what happens when you have thousands upon thousands of different people doing similar things.

This is just another thing to take in stride. There are far more important things in life, especially in the current climate, to fret about.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

No. It's nothing new. The community always finds differences in opinion and expound upon them to dramatic levels. The arguments I see here have sparks no different than FFXI's arguments over expansion difficulty in accessibility, the disbalance of population and classes in Aion, and the similar tone of endgame complains in SWTOR, Guild Wars 2, and Wildstar.

If anything FFXIV has a community stronger than those other I mentioned, though some will argue that FFXI's was closer knit.

If human beings can share words, they'll argue. That's just our nature.

I don't take the complains heard on forums seriously unless I see equal impact within the actual game itself. And honestly, it's too late in the cycle for that to happen. Statics that were falling apart were falling apart to begin with. Those who quit working on Animas were likely never to complete them. Those that still have the will to stick it out will do so - and most who complain will go about their days. You'll have a few exceptions to each of these, but that's what happens when you have thousands upon thousands of different people doing similar things.

This is just another thing to take in stride. There are far more important things in life, especially in the current climate, to fret about.

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The only thing that bothers me about it personally is it seems like such a poor design decision just in like every way.
If it wasn't for the bug it would have been same day "you can finish your anima and btw all that work is trumped by a random pink drop with no precursor requirements whatsoever" which kind of just deflates the feeling of awsomeness completing anima. the rarity doesn't really matter it's the idea of it
Kind of same deal with alexander and all the time and effort learning it then boom! random pinky drop that easily trumps it

and the thing i think most people just glaze over is the weapon could have been 270 or even 265 and the diadem crowd still would have desired it. The majority can't even do zurvan EX, that level would have been a fine carrot on a stick.

Why does diadem need such a thing to bribe people into it anyways? The place is a goldmine of all kinds of things

It just kind of reeks of not a lot of thought being put into it. Personally I don't really care if it's better or worse, It won't make a bad player able to do higher content

Why is this thread still going on lol. It's not like the weapon drops FOR SURE. And even then it has to drop from a selection of classes and then you still have to win the roll. It's not the end of the world. Highly doubt Yoshi-P would do something like this to rustle people's jimmies. Stop getting so worked up over something so trivial.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

The problem of loot and value needs to be re-assessed on a foundation level.

I've been growing into the philosophy of late that MMOs lately have had it backwards - Gearstats should not be the reward, but rather the preparation for the challenge. After all, if the true definer of the reward is supposed to be skill and dedication, then providing additional stats to only the skilled presses a hand on the scale of opportunity.

Instead of being upset that your trophy no longer has top stats (that was always going to happen anyways). Instead perhaps delight in the fact that there's another trophy out there to obtain - it's still going to be hard. Yes, some people will get incredibly lucky and get it sooner. But that does not devalue Alexander Weapons - that devalues Coven weapons. Alexander Weapons are trophies for those who work hard in raiding. Diadem weapons are for those who endured and got lucky in Diadem. Anima weapons are for those who persisted and worked their way up the Anima chain.

Three different methods, three different trophies. That's it. Obsessing over stats that never remain relevant for long really does put to question the desires of the person attempting to obtain it.

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Wow... this resonated so well with me. If only more people could adopt such thinking it would surely reduce the discontent people feel about gear in this game. People forget that it IS a GAME... the real reward should be having fun and enjoying the time you get to spend with your friends on this online space.