How would they fix PLD 4.0?

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Originally Posted by ChloeGrace

Skill-gating and ressource-managing ideas

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So, basically, made PLD play like WAR ?

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Originally Posted by ChloeGrace

They should gate Royal Authority behind Sword Oath, and up the potency.
Alter Savage Blade to have increased potency in combo while in Sword Oath. instead of increased enmity.
Gate Rage of Halone behind Shield Oath.

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I don't even know where to start... Do you even play any end game content with pld or any tank?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

So, basically, made PLD play like WAR ?

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oh hell no

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

So, basically, made PLD play like WAR ?

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It's not a stretch. (Bard 3.0 says hi to Machinist.)

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Originally Posted by ChloeGrace

It's not a stretch. (Bard 3.0 says hi to Machinist.)

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Precedence alone doesn't make it any more desirable though.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

they won't try to change the meta

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but they dont support it either, if not they put grit and oaths out of gcd with that change, and looking how they nerf str builds to the ground and remove healer acc from gears point to other path, its hard to know what devs thinks actually looking at the current state of the game and they choices, some defend this is intenden and others like me think this was a experiment of how this can go and get out of control in the very begining and they try to mitigate the effects of what they do during all the expansion, bcs a total rework can be very expensive and overload the combat team work, compared to 2.x, 3.x get a lot of changes on many jobs with a stats revamp on tanks and healers whit keeping they work creating new mechanics and new dungeons every 3 months.

so i hope we get some new info about what they go to do in the fan fest or at least tease us in some way, in coil the raid desing make the weight of the fight was distributed betwen all 3 roles having boses with want us to get all mitigation posible, boses asking for a lot of heals where they run out of mp (old days when mage ballad was more important), and some but rare heavy dps fights like avatar, alexander put all the weight in the DPS, they put us multiples boms how we need deactivate as we dodging 50cal bullets, at a some extreme point we are not requre to keep our tank stance and healers are looking they belly button so what we do? DPS, our roles are so easy now, dealt high DPS with pretty simple rotations thats all.

so back to the topic and that clemency shield, depend of the game desing, the only way that can work is if that heal shield is enough to take out a healer and solve the dps lose with a 5º dps or healer work being more harder and that make it they save some MP preventing the BRD/MCH have to use MP refress, i dont think save a tank of going to tank stance that rare fight is enough to compensate the PLD dps of all the fight with sacrifice for clemency.

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Originally Posted by shao32

if not they put grit and oaths out of gcd with that change

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GCD and MP is a "cost". Wether it's better than having to stay in the same stance for 10 seconds is debatable.

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Originally Posted by shao32

and looking how they nerf str builds to the ground and remove healer acc from gears

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Our numbers maybe lower than before, but it's still highly recommended to push them as high as possible.

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Originally Posted by shao32

they try to mitigate the effects of what they do during all the expansion

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That's a possibility. But now that the community follows that, it will be hard to change back.

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Originally Posted by shao32

the only way that can work is if that heal shield is enough to take out a healer and solve the dps lose with a 5th dps

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I personally wouldn't mind that, but it's a really big stretch.

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Originally Posted by shao32

or healer work being more harder and that make it they save some MP preventing the BRD/MCH have to use MP refress

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I wouldn't mind that either...but since I don't play healer, it's a bit unfair to advocate on their job being made harder :p

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Originally Posted by shao32

I dont think save a tank of going to tank stance that rare fight is enough to compensate the PLD dps of all the fight with sacrifice for clemency.

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The thing is, with 100% SwO uptime, PLD is actually not that bad DPS wise. Goring Blade and Royal Authority are really powerful. And allowing a DRK to never activate Grit is also a huge DPS gain in the long run, allowing for highest uptime of Blood Weapon and a lot more MP to focus on offensive skills.

And suddenly, the idea of DRK+PLD working as a pair to compete with WAR's throne is a bit funny :p

I almost feel like they kinda picked on pali the more I play it , and its my defacto main but its reallly just horrible. Palis highest attack is 100 less potency than drk soul eater combo, 150 less potency than warrior fell cleave. They give it zero aoe basicly other than your 25 sec gcd one while drk and warrior each get three different aoes that attack and warrior gets overpower plus berserk, with added bonus of maim along with the option to use unmend in tank stance.

Up until 50 as pali u basically spam riot blade and your argo combo , while the other two tanks actually have their stuns in their rotations (low blow, and brutal swing). Its really insane to me why they would cripple such an awesome job like this that has a great story and many people love the sword and shield. The least they could do if they arent gona do anything else is like I said earlier reduce cool down on the following abilities,

Spirits Within to 10 seconds, Circle of Scorn reduce cd to 10 seconds are zero seconds, cut clemency cd to 500 mp, and cut down the cool down of sentinel and hallowed ground they should shave off at least two to three mins

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I wouldn't mind that either...but since I don't play healer, it's a bit unfair to advocate on their job being made harder :p

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well obiously is not healty for the game this way, not with a proper desing of the jobs to perfect adapt this actual meta, with is obviously many jobs are not, about healers i meaning healing skill, not really make the job harder just try to focis it more on heals and mp manage, i play healers some times, AST now and before the over buffs, and i almost solo heal 24 raids and extremes, top players hp is pretty easy they have so much free time practically in all content.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

I almost feel like they kinda picked on pali the more I play it , and its my defacto main but its reallly just horrible. Palis highest attack is 100 less potency than drk soul eater combo, 150 less potency than warrior fell cleave.

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But Royal Authority can be used over and over for free. And keep in mind that PLD have the highest DoT potency of all the jobs with Goring Blade.
Yes, its damage is lower but "horrible" is a bit strong.

Spirits Within is a free 300 potency on a 30s timer, Carve & Spit is a MP costly 450 potency on a 60s timer. Even factoring the 15% damage boost thanks to Darkside, its average potency is lower, even before Fight or Flight.

I have All 3 Tanks at 60 and I do a lot of Lore grinding. When playing my high speed Dark Knight I feel like im racing through the dungeon behind the wheel of a Ferrari. Between toggling stances for DPS bursts on bosses to unloading Dark Arts+Dark passanger on a horde of trash mobs I am fully engaged. My fingers and thumbs are moving so fast my group can only wonder why anybody brings a paladin into expert roulette. Dark Knight was a beautifully designed class. Paladin on the other hand feels like im driving to work in a Ford Focus.

PLD needs a shield skill that absorbs damage into TP.

Also, more AoE weaponskills. Large pulls are never going away.

Sword weapon potency needs to be a bit higher, maybe some kind of double/triple attack trait.

Please give PLD something to do when there's more than one enemy present (i.e. 99% of the fights you'll ever find yourself in). Flash spam is not only boring, but it doesn't even feel like you're contributing to the fight. I'm sure it's been suggested before (probably even in this thread), but why not have Circle of Scorn work like the Arcanist's Bane and spread your Goring Blade effects to nearby enemies? Maybe give PLD powerful, short-duration buffs to cast on our team so we can make use of our large MP pool and contribute to the team's damage without simply copy/pasting AoE moves from the other tanks (I'd prefer this personally)?

I understand PLD is supposed to be the more traditional tank, but I don't see why that means it has to feel so dry compared to the other two. At best it can still feel clunky compared to the other tanks and at it's worst (large pulls, pre-50 content) it can feel completely limp. It just feels like what the PLD sacrifices is out of line with what it gains in return.

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Originally Posted by Drakkaelus

Please give PLD something to do when there's more than one enemy present (i.e. 99% of the fights you'll ever find yourself in). Flash spam is not only boring, but it doesn't even feel like you're contributing to the fight.

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Add a pld-only trait to add damage to flash. Fixes their whole issue of being terrible in dungeons all by itself.

PLD DPS stance is underwhelming... All it does is make your auto attack a double attack, and the is potential in that, which could make PLD more viable OT than DRK. Like making every debuff that PLD inflicts double in duration increased effect potency while also making every offensive abilitya and weaponskill be a double attack much like the auto attack. PLD level 60 job weaponskill can be buffed to where it give a damage dealt boost that you have to maintain but have it at 15% boost that last 21 seconds. As for defense, PLD is set but needs more healing abilities for parties and make it feel like the PLD it was meant to be...

BATTLE RES! <.< >.> o.o

I am honestly getting tired of all this "Paladin is broken" stuff. Paladin was Never broken and still isn't. The savage raid at the time was just poorly tuned towards Paladin and their dps was slightly underwhelming. A1S and A4S was designed specifically for Drk to shine because of the frequent magical tankbusters, HOWEVER was still possible for Pld to accomplish. The world first a2s clear used a Pld even with the lack of AoE damage they possessed because Cover and Hallowed were busted for that fight. a3s would have used Pld provided they got their 3.2 dps buff from the start. The only reason they chose Drk was because of the increased DPS capability. Come Midas and the DPS buffs, Pld dominated over Drk and many people exclaiming for a Drk buff.

If you want a job that was truly broken, look at War from 2.0, the only mitigation it had was Foresight, which was largely underwhelming, and arguably Thrill of Battle, Vengeance only had the counter damage, Inner Beast healed for 300% damage rather than mitigating 20% for 6s, Holmgang did not prevent you from going below 1hp and the healing benefit from Defiance was tied to their stacks, meaning that if the Warrior used Inner Beast, they would heal themselves for a small amount and then lose all extra healing from healers. In 2.0 Warrior was so broken it could not even clear the harder duties, they would constantly die to tankbusters because they had no mitigation. This was promptly fixed in 2.1 to make them actually useful in some capacity. Paladin in 3.0 was never that broken.

Come Sword Oath discussion: Yes, SwO is the most boring DPS stance, however it is the most powerful one. With all melee DPS and Tanks, Auto Attacks do approximately 20% of their DPS on all occasions. Sword Oath ticks, do 70% of the damage of an Auto Attack, and hence increases Auto Attack DPS from 20% to 34% (not even including the 15% increase from dropping Shield Oath)

So please. Stop Saying Paladin is broken. It is the weakest for DPS yes, but not by much. What is not broken does not need to be fixed.

There's no escaping the fact that "Paladin is broken" .

In content where the paladin isnt expected to do anything other than main tank there's not so much of an issue. It's the 4 man content where it feels so generic and cookie cutter and downright broken compared to WAR and Dark.
Paladin would feel so much smoother if they would simply do the following:
-Make SwO level 30 reward and ShO level 40
-Make Shield Swipe an oGCD high potency aoe
-access to Circle of Scorn at lower level. 50 is too late
-Make Clemency a oGCD close proximity group heal or some sort of party wide attack buff.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

BATTLE RES! <.< >.> o.o

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That would break my "You were raised by a PLD, feel ashamed" macro...

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Originally Posted by Truck

-Make SwO level 30 reward and ShO level 40

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Ehhh, that's how it is now. Did you mean Shield Oath at 30 and Sword Oath at 40?

I think the only way they'll ever truly fix it is if they do something about this DPS meta that's run amok

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Originally Posted by Truck

In content where the paladin isnt expected to do anything other than main tank there's not so much of an issue. It's the 4 man content where it feels so generic and cookie cutter and downright broken compared to WAR and Dark.
Paladin would feel so much smoother if they would simply do the following:
-Make SwO level 30 reward and ShO level 40
-Make Shield Swipe an oGCD high potency aoe
-access to Circle of Scorn at lower level. 50 is too late
-Make Clemency a oGCD close proximity group heal or some sort of party wide attack buff.

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I like the Shield Swipe idea! Shield Swipe should be a front Conal AoE though.
(Also, every PLD says tank stance should have been 30, and 35 at the lowest, DPS stance at 50, not liek u needed DPS stance earlier)
Someone suggested Circle of Scorn spreads your DoT duration from goring blade as well.

Both of these I think would help keep PLD feeling pretty similar to itself already, while giving it SOME sort of AoE mechanics, other than spam 1 button. (Id argue this would actually make it nearly more complex than the other tanks, despite being so basic.)

A nice line AoE like DRG has, or conal like WAR is almost certainly going to be one of the new skills added in 4.0. I think that would solve most of the problems.

I ran lots of dungeons as PLD this weekend for the first time in a while since I switched to DRK main and the lack of AoE is the only thing that bugs me. Single target I have no complaints.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

That would break my "You were raised by a PLD, feel ashamed" macro...

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BWAHAHAHAHA

The only thing PLD really lacks is aoe damage. If they add a spamable aoe move like drk and war the job would be much better.

Just did the level 60 job quest and Solkzagyl used an ability PLD sorely needs.

https://youtu.be/DoWCSi4uKvI?t=994

Make it oGCD without knockback with high enmity. Or maybe give it a wide stun since PLDs have the theme of no cd on stun with Shield Bash.

Give'em this as well. Just like a WoW Paladin's consecration.

If your definition of a 'stance' is like mine: meaning provides a mechanic that gates or unlocks affects like so with DRK/WAR, then Sword Oath isn't a stance, it's a free-cost buff that can't be used in tank stance. Only thing that makes it a stance is the 'Oath' suffix it shares with ShO.

paper-stat comparisons of Berserk to FoF, or SW to C&S may suggest PLD is a good shape. But these abilities (including SwO) have to carry more water for PLD than their counterparts on the other tanks. That said the addition of a single ability could be the difference in where PLD fits in performance. I think SE is going to handle it fine, shocking confession.

So I'm more curious about how low level PLD/GLA is going to be affected by the combat change. If PLD sees new abilities at low level - replacing what is now lvl22's Provoke, lvl32's Awareness, and/or lvl10's Convalescence - that change combined with lvl 70 skills would add up to significant retooling.

I can't imagine Conva and Awareness not making it into the Role pool. Warrior is already getting shafted losing Internal Release, it'd be just extra salt to take away these two other skills that synergy so well for them.

Or I'm completely misinterpreting what they are doing with the role skills / cross class adjustment.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

If your definition of a 'stance' is like mine: meaning provides a mechanic that gates or unlocks affects like so with DRK/WAR, then Sword Oath isn't a stance, it's a free-cost buff that can't be used in tank stance. Only thing that makes it a stance is the 'Oath' suffix it shares with ShO.

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For the sake of discussion, I actually feel this definition wouldnt be best, due to abilities like Sneak Attack and Trick attack.
(Also, not only do tanks have stances in MMOs, so saying it cant work with tank stance isnt a very good example either.)

While Stances CAN effect which abilities u can or cant use through gating, they can also not do this.
They are more so a category of "Buff".
But the most common being a buff that lasts until you switch it off, rather than having a timed duration.
The second most important feature of it being called a stance, and not just a perma buff, is that it has to change your stats enough to change your playstyle.
Going from Tank to DPS for example. (More akin to changing roles, but sometimes you hold your role, while still changing stances)
It still remains possible to retains the exact same rotation, while trying to switch into a "DPS" rotation as a tank, solely from poor class design.
Which doesnt change if a type of buff is a stance or not. (2.x PLD being a great example of this, where they had no DPS rotation, so nothing changed for them.)

The 3rd most common definition of a Stance, also required that you couldnt have 2 stances on at the same time.
But with DRKs Darkside being a good example, it was only a matter of time, before that changed as well. (Technically it does have an MP cost, with an ever changing duration, but what if an MMO made the same mechanic, but with no MP cost? Which makes us have to redefine what a Stance is again.)

So now, a "Stance" is better explained as being the above 2, with occasional variations such as "Gating abilities" or "Stacking with another stance".

It would be really simple if they want to just have flash do blind naturally and its trait should add damage, Well this would work and be beneficial for even the other tanks to at least think about cross classing it for some instances(featherfoot on warrior, dark dance on DRK) but considering the removal of cross class, flash will probably just go to the wayside, and maybe itll be retooled for damage on pld, I mean it seems like a common sense solution to the aoe problem and early level tanking.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

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I keep hearing the damage component being added to flash and I'm not exactly sure I agree with that. I'd rather have a new aoe type attack given to pld to make use of its underutilized mp and some kind of (superior) utility added to flash.

But every time I think about possible fixes my thoughts always come back to the mp bar and it's potential. Mostly because when I think paladin I think holy knight smiting their enemies with a sword and holy power. Then I think of final fantasy tactics and the holy sword magic used by Agrias and Orlandu and how the solution is right there!

Can't edit cause I'm on mobile. When it comes to a better utility for flash I was thinking some kind vulnerability debuff in the vein of the slashing damage debuff or requiem.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

Can't edit cause I'm on mobile. When it comes to a better utility for flash I was thinking some kind vulnerability debuff in the vein of the slashing damage debuff or requiem.

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Alternatively, couldn't you just make Blind useful to counterattacks, instead of it actually indirectly reducing the proc chances of blocks and parries (a faint dps loss)?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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I considered that as well and I'm a bit torn. On the one hand if we make blind better it won't help much with the lack of aoe damage and it still wouldn't be useful on bosses.

Now granted not every ability needs to be good in every situation since a warrior won't use overpower on a boss for example. But making Flash better (while certainly a buff) isn't really what's needed for the class in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

I considered that as well and I'm a bit torn. On the one hand if we make blind better it won't help much with the lack of aoe damage and it still wouldn't be useful on bosses.

Now granted not every ability needs to be good in every situation since a warrior won't use overpower on a boss for example. But making Flash better (while certainly a buff) isn't really what's needed for the class in my opinion.

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In fairness, for a change like that to benefit PLD AoE, Shield Swipe would need a Low Blow reset mechanic, and/or a sort of stacking mechanic allowing it to strike *every* enemy you recently blocked for a portion of main target damage.

...At that point though, you may as well have Bulwark cause your shield to work against magic as well, and change Shield Oath to simply forgo damage reduction on shield moves and revert it to -20% damage dealt for -20% damage taken.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

In fairness, for a change like that to benefit PLD AoE, Shield Swipe would need a Low Blow reset mechanic, and/or a sort of stacking mechanic allowing it to strike *every* enemy you recently blocked for a portion of main target damage.

...At that point though, you may as well have Bulwark cause your shield to work against magic as well, and change Shield Oath to simply forgo damage reduction on shield moves and revert it to -20% damage dealt for -20% damage taken.

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could definately see a diablo-esque thorns-like ability added to bulwark, The holy knight/Agrias comment was awesome as well, I just felt Flash would be a more homogenous retooling to put them on par with the other 2 tanks when dealing with multiple target tanking. Also feel like pld losing might have a chance to be addressed in their newer skills since a lot of its holy theme is probably going away with the cross role system,even if admittedly they werent really that great, well stoneskin had its uses moreso stoneskin/protect,

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

It would be really simple if they want to just have flash do blind naturally and its trait should add damage, Well this would work and be beneficial for even the other tanks to at least think about cross classing it for some instances(featherfoot on warrior, dark dance on DRK) but considering the removal of cross class, flash will probably just go to the wayside, and maybe itll be retooled for damage on pld, I mean it seems like a common sense solution to the aoe problem and early level tanking.

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Actually this gives me an idea. Giving Flash the ability to raise dmg dealt to blinded targets by 5% alone helps make you "feel" as if you're contributing to AoE dmg. (Even if you're not directly, and even if its not very useful in some scenarios where mobs are immune to blindness) (Though id still like some of the other minor filler options, so u could also try to maximize blinds duration, w/o just spaming flash.)

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

a sort of stacking mechanic allowing it to strike *every* enemy you recently blocked for a portion of main target.

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You know I think something in that vein is a bloody brilliant idea as I think on it more. Up the potency of shield bash (not sure what would be a good number but bear with me on this idea) have the damage be a cone aoe directly in front of the target. Have the stun effect only apply to the primary target.

As far as bulwark goes, I've always felt that shield swipe should have no cooldown while it's active.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Actually this gives me an idea. Giving Flash the ability to raise dmg dealt to blinded targets by 5% alone helps make you "feel" as if you're contributing to AoE dmg. (Even if you're not directly, and even if its not very useful in some scenarios where mobs are immune to blindness) (Though id still like some of the other minor filler options, so u could also try to maximize blinds duration, w/o just spaming flash.)

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This isn't a bad idea. I might make the vulnerability up independent of blind though. It would apply the extra dmg contribution from tank stance too which helps push it further away from WAR and DRK styles. If it was done in such a way that it could impact bosses/single target, it would also help with tp issues since the PLD would use tp less frequently.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

In fairness, for a change like that to benefit PLD AoE, Shield Swipe would need a Low Blow reset mechanic

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Or Shield Swipe could be changed to be a conal AoE on GCD, still proced by blocking. It's called War Drum and it existed back in 1.xx.
Downside : Useless for OT.