Stop queuing for PotD if you don't intend to DPS at all.

I was going to post a big long post about every point made in this thread when I got home from work but I have to stay an extra five hours so I'm just going to post this: no one here is promoting the demonization of healers who don't DPS. We are however critical of those who choose not to and refuse to learn and understand how much a healer can offer beyond healing. If someone is trying their best and they are uncomfortable with dpsing in some content, that is fine. But if they are unwilling to expand on their skills and become a better healer and team player because they only want to heal, we have a right to critize them for being lazy and wanting to be carried. This is especially true for PotD because it can be ran without a single healer.

Sorry for any spelling mistakes or strangeness in this post. I'm on my phone.

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Originally Posted by MaloraYuki

You are right communicate. yet as I've said in this post multiple times if you have 3 healers all just healing you don't get anywhere. And sometimes when you say something to them they don't listen or they jump down your throat, because "they are healers they heal" which isn't always how it works in PotD. Everyone needs to communicate and understand what others are trying to say. This forum is a prime example of people not taking the time to understand what others are saying. Everyone wants to make the other party the bad guy.

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The forums are not the majority, just a vocal minority.

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Originally Posted by Clethoria

The forums are not the majority, just a vocal minority.

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Never said they were the majority. Just used it as an example to show lack of communication and understanding which I presumed was what you were getting at.

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Originally Posted by MaloraYuki

The posts weren't about healers being idle in regular dungeons tho it was suppose to be about PotD. Which is different. the argument in this forum came from the fights of "I pay my sub I play how I want" and also of people assuming people were talking about regular dungeons which until you jumped in we weren't. Sorry but it's people like you that look for fights... Can you find anything else to complain about your argument is getting old... Go ahead call me a bully call the rest of us a bully it seems to be your only defense.

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I was talking about ptod untill I saw quite a few posts that were off topic about healers. Your acting like you should be the only one allowed to say something. My first post here was talking about healers that may not know about stance dancing. My intention was to hope you give them a break. The rest was replies to other off topic comments. You cant blame all the off topic comments on me.

I wasnt the one to complain in the first place. Who is 'we' were talking about potd. I saw at least three posts that wernt exclusively talking about potd at the beginning. I may say things that others dont agree with, but conversations here are open to discussion. There will always be opinions that you dont like, that doesnt mean someone is looking for a fight if their opinion is different from yours. Its actually a joke that you are the one talking about communication, but your the one that doent want to listen to what someone else is saying.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I won't get on your case about lack of DPS contribution because those roulettes are intentionally designed for inexperienced players to learn. When you've reached Xelphatol or Alexander, you no longer have any excuse. Furthermore, I'll straight up comm any healer who at least tries to stance dance even if they panic out of it. At least they are putting forth an effort-- one I hope to encourage with commendations. It's the healers who flatout don't want to DPS that most people complain about.

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Im replying because you quoted me. You do not seem to understand that healers still need to learn afight like alexander before youknow when its safe to dps, so your comments are based on presumption. It is just thse same presmptions of what healers can and cant do which is what I am talking about

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I wasnt the one to complain in the first place. Who is 'we' were talking about potd. I saw at least three posts that wernt exclusively talking about potd at the beginning. I may say things that others dont agree with, but conversations here are open to discussion. There will always be opinions that you dont like, that doesnt mean someone is looking for a fight if their opinion is different from yours. Its actually a joke that you are the one talking about communication, but your the one that doent want to listen to what someone else is saying.

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your right it's your opinion I don't have to like it and you don't have to like mine. If I find your argument to be getting old that's fine and I can say it because like you just said it's an open discussion. :) have a nice day feyona, hope you figure out this bully problem of yours.

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Originally Posted by MaloraYuki

If I find your argument to be getting old that's fine and I can say it because like you just said it's an open discussion. :) have a nice day feyona, hope you figure out this bully problem of yours.

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The bullying problem isnt just mine. I spoke to someone yester day that is learning healing and was given a hard time in a dungeon, and had to log to get over it. How many more healers have left the game over it? And why is it ok to upset people like that? And why are you all seeming to condone it all? Because the last thing you want to hear is that there may actually be a problem for healers on this game atm being added to by higher and higher expectations of what we can do. If someone dies its healers fault, but they are supposed to do1500 dps as well or they are bad player if there isnt eough dps its healer being lazy etc. It may be an old argument but the aswers are old too like if your abad player u deserve to be kicked etc.

Can I also note for Healers to stop queing in POTD Floor 80 - 90 90 - 100 at +40 arms please? I don't care if you have heals. You're harming the efficiency of the party than helping. q_q

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Originally Posted by Cleftobismal

Can I also note for Healers to stop queing in POTD Floor 80 - 90 90 - 100 at +40 arms please? I don't care if you have heals. You're harming the efficiency of the party than helping. q_q

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Is this sarcasm or...?

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Originally Posted by Cleftobismal

Can I also note for Healers to stop queing in POTD Floor 80 - 90 90 - 100 at +40 arms please?q_q

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You're joking right? A group of dps at +42 enhancements can defeat the last boss with no problem at all and without a single death.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

You're joking right? A group of dps at +42 enhancements can defeat the last boss with no problem at all and without a single death.

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You haven't seen my runs. \o\ It doesn't work as well as you claim. /o/



Passable doesn't mean it's wanted. Especially if they're hardly doing a scratch. (Both Healing and DPSING) Let alone there is less room for error since their arms is extremely low. Ultimately leading to his/her quick death at the boss when they make a mistake.


If you're comfortable with +40's in a floor thats 2x their arms level fine. Just know there are voices like mine who aren't and would rather not go through the pain of having one in the party again.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

The bullying problem isnt just mine. I spoke to someone yester day that is learning healing and was given a hard time in a dungeon, and had to log to get over it.

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It's not bullying if someone is given advice on how they should play their job effectively. If I say "Tank, please use your AoE enmity skills", "DRG, please keep your Heavy Thrust up at all times", or "Healer, please do some DPS when people aren't taking much damage", it shouldn't make anyone upset. Now, if someone is saying something outright offensive, then it's an issue of harassment, and that person should be reported and moved from the party.

In short, it's not bullying or harassment to ask someone to play their job effectively or give them advice on how to do it.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

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I laid out "our side" in clear words and yet you are still twisting it into something its not. Anyone who gives someone else a hard time over healing when they are learning it and causes said person to log out because they can't handle the harassment should be reported. We do not stand with people who do this, we do not participate in this kind of activity. But, again, in PotD Healers need to realize that they are not essential and "learning" by just spamming heals and not dpsing is going to get you kicked from time to time because any one doing any sort of damage will make the run faster than they will.

I was going to go on to explain how one can tell the difference between one who is learning and one who is just doing the bare minimum deliberately. But I won't. You wouldn't read it anyway, or you would take it out of context.

I'm done.

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

I laid out "our side" in clear words and yet you are still twisting it into something its not. Anyone who gives someone else a hard time over healing when they are lea
I was going to go on to explain how one can tell the difference between one who is learning and one who is just doing the bare minimum deliberately. But I won't. You wouldn't read it anyway, or you would take it out of context.

I'm done.

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I wasnt specifically talking about you I just challenged what some of you were saying, the same way that you challenged what I was saying by taking what I said out of context. Alot of comments seemed to miss the point I was making completely. I dont think everyone can tell the difference between a learner and someone who isnt trying and that was in some of my points. Sometimes even if you tell them your trying you get told to delete your account etc. Because they dont care, they just want the bad player out of the way

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I wasnt specifically talking about you I just challenged what some of you were saying, the same way that you challenged what I was saying by taking what I said out of context. Alot of comments seemed to miss the point I was making completely. I dont think everyone can tell the difference between a learner and someone who isnt trying and that was in some of my points. Sometimes even if you tell them your trying you get told to delete your account etc. Because they dont care, they just want the bad player out of the way

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People may appear to be missing your points because you're having a discussion other than what most everyone else here is having. We've touched on learning players and how expectations for them are different and have since moved on.

It shouldn't be necessary to preface each and every comment on gameplay issues with a disclaimer about the new player learning curve and how bullying is wrong; at some point it should be assumed that we're on the same page in regards to basic courtesy unless the poster is clearly bashing on new players or otherwise being abusive.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

People may appear to be missing your points because you're having a discussion other than what most everyone else here is having. We've touched on learning players and how expectations for them are different and have since moved on.

It shouldn't be necessary to preface each and every comment on gameplay issues with a disclaimer about the new player learning curve and how bullying is wrong; at some point it should be assumed that we're on the same page in regards to basic courtesy unless the poster is clearly bashing on new players or otherwise being abusive.

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I dont think its that so much as they dont like what Im saying. Most of my responses were to everyone elses. So by default it was the same conversation. You can think that ofc if you want. Same as this reply. I may not say what you would like me to but its the same cnversation

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Im replying because you quoted me. You do not seem to understand that healers still need to learn afight like alexander before youknow when its safe to dps, so your comments are based on presumption. It is just thse same presmptions of what healers can and cant do which is what I am talking about

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No one is saying you have to DPS day one of progression. In fact, I wouldn't even turn off Grit much (if at all) until I learned the mechanics and what I can cheese through. We're talking about once you've experienced everything and know what mechanics are coming. If you've cleared A9S, you should know when to anticipate damage and when it's safe to DPS. Or you can take up solo healing the entire fight. There are healers who refuse to DPS ever. They simply won't turn on Cleric Stance even when they're well aware there won't be any incoming damage.

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Originally Posted by Cleftobismal

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Well, what matters to me most is simply getting through the instance. This is also why I mostly go in as PLD, since I can spot heal effectively when necessary, raise when needed, and mitigate and deal damage efficiently without hampering my parties ability to clear said content as quickly as can be managed. Anything over +40, while nice to have, won't speed up the run at all.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Anything over +40, while nice to have, won't speed up the run at all.

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Are we on the same page here? You just confused me.


Anything over +40 Arms in the floors 80-100's is totally gonna make the run faster. Especially when you have party members who can split up and cover rooms.


Unless you can convince me a party of 4 +40 arms will clear the run in the same duration as a +99. I don't buy it.

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Originally Posted by Cleftobismal

Are we on the same page here? You just confused me.


Anything over +40 Arms in the floors 80-100's is totally gonna make the run faster. Especially when you have party members who can split up and cover rooms.


Unless you can convince me a party of 4 +40 arms will clear the run in the same duration as a +99. I don't buy it.

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A group of 2 sch, a pld, and a blm, all around +43 arms/armor: 90-100 took about 24 minutes.

Another group of 2 drg a pld and a blm all around mid 90s, though the pld had a +87 weapon: About 24 minutes for completion, 90-100.

Both runs used 5 strength and 3 Rages.

Of course, this is just what I've seen on my own runs as pld, but I don't see any time difference.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

A group of 2 sch, a pld, and a blm, all around +43 arms/armor: 90-100 took about 24 minutes.

Another group of 2 drg a pld and a blm all around mid 90s, though the pld had a +87 weapon: About 24 minutes for completion, 90-100.

Both runs used 5 strength and 3 Rages.

Of course, this is just what I've seen on my own runs as pld, but I don't see any time difference.

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The math doesn't add up. We have the ability to have +80 arms for a reason. For those two to have the same time in your experience. The latter had to be inexperienced or not seasoned yet to complete the duty.

I still don't buy it.

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Originally Posted by Cleftobismal

We have the ability to have +80 arms for a reason.

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Well, you're not wrong. The reason is so that it's easier to acquire multiple Kinnas if you so desire.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

A group of 2 sch, a pld, and a blm, all around +43 arms/armor: 90-100 took about .

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Lol wtf this has got to be the shittiest evidence i've seen, one reason why this game needs a friggin dps meter.

1. POTD runs are not directly comparable, the random generation of mobs, traps and even required mobs to progress means you cant simply say it makes no difference. How would you know if the sch pt gpt a string of good floors whereas the 87+ group got crap spawns?

2. Unless the players were equally skilled you also can't compare. The gap between trash tier and decent is huge. This alone can mean minutes on the clear time

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

There's one issue I can see & that's people who are on ACN/SCH or AST & either haven't levelled CNJ or don't have Cleric Stance cross classed.

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This is impossible because SCH need CNJ to level up until level 30 15.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

It's my sub, I'll play how I want.

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It's my sub, I'll kick people who can't work as team

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Originally Posted by Cleftobismal

You haven't seen my runs. \o\ It doesn't work as well as you claim. /o/



Passable doesn't mean it's wanted. Especially if they're hardly doing a scratch. (Both Healing and DPSING) Let alone there is less room for error since their arms is extremely low. Ultimately leading to his/her quick death at the boss when they make a mistake.


If you're comfortable with +40's in a floor thats 2x their arms level fine. Just know there are voices like mine who aren't and would rather not go through the pain of having one in the party again.

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When I first enter PoTD from 51-100 as WHM my stat are worse (Because I trade to padjal weapon before) like until floor 91 it's still around +41 (I forgot the exact number), yet my team didn't complain. I'm just doing my best to maintain people's HP and spam holy for the AoE stun.

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Originally Posted by Eul

This is impossible because SCH need CNJ to level up until level 30.

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Level 15 not 30 lol

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

Level 15 not 30 lol

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Oh right I'll fix my post then :3

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Originally Posted by Eul

When I first enter PoTD from 51-100 as WHM my stat are worse (Because I trade to padjal weapon before) like until floor 91 it's still around +41 (I forgot the exact number), yet my team didn't complain. I'm just doing my best to maintain people's HP and spam holy for the AoE stun.

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That doesn't mean anything. I don't say anything when I see someone with such arms, as much as I'm not comfortable with them in the party. Although I will tell them if they try to heal "You don't need to heal me, you can focus on dps". For obvious reasons.

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Originally Posted by Eul

This is impossible because SCH need CNJ to level up until level 30 15.

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If you noticed I said ACN/SCH or AST. You can be ACN or AST without even looking at CNJ & all three (AST, ACN & SCH) allow you to be a healer without cross class Cleric Stance. Nothing I posted was necessarily incorrect. Yes, you require to have got to lvl15 CNJ to get the SCH soul crystal but that's trivial if you've been running PoTD.

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

If you noticed I said ACN/SCH or AST. You can be ACN or AST without even looking at CNJ & all three (AST, ACN & SCH) allow you to be a healer without cross class Cleric Stance. Nothing I posted was necessarily incorrect. Yes, you require to have got to lvl15 CNJ to get the SCH soul crystal but that's trivial if you've been running PoTD.

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buuuuut ACN isn't a healer, it's a DD. and ACN is also not even able to crossclass cleric stance.

How could you even classify someone healing as an ACN as a healer? There's more to being a healer than using a healing spell over and over.

An ACN who wants to run as a "healer" would need to drop all their points into MND for their one (1) healing spell that only has a potency of 400. They would not be able to heal multiple people and would only have Virus and E4E for CDs. No dispel either. Oh, but they can rezz. Totally wurf.

They would also make the weakest possible healer in terms of offensive power. So what exactly would be the point?

people, let's not forget this is a game.

i do enjoy throwing spells at my enemies, but only when i feel it's safe to do. it's my call, since the hp of my party is my responsibility.

and then i just log in to do my roulette after a hard day at work and am happy when muscle memory keeps my allies alive and can't be arsed to actually put effort in to make a 30 min run 3 min faster.

let's not forget, those "damn dds", the "lazy healer" and the "shitty tank" are all people, not bots.

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Originally Posted by kazeandi

let's not forget, those "damn dds", the "lazy healer" and the "shitty tank" are all people, not bots.

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To be honest, sometimes it's impossible to tell the difference.

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Originally Posted by kazeandi

let's not forget, those "damn dds", the "lazy healer" and the "shitty tank" are all people, not bots.

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Wanting to grant benefit of the doubt, along with having some capacity for empathy, is what stops me from creating drama for people who are making my experience worse. In some cases they can't help it or don't know better, and I'm willing to accept that I usually won't have tip-top runs with random groups if that means that others are able to enjoy and help support the game.

On the other hand, if that lazy healer or shitty tank is making it so that arguably no one is able to do what they want to do (i.e. clear the objective), I am all for putting in a constructive word and for trying to spread information that could help more players perform better.

I agree that it's important not to lose sight of the fact that players are (usually) people, but I also resist tipping towards the opposite extreme of rampant entitlement. Just as with legal freedoms IRL, I believe that each player's expectation to play their own way, free of criticism, with their own subscription money starts to be impacted as soon as it crosses the line into affecting the experiences of others.

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Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

i'm more surprised that you managed to land a team with three healers than that they weren't dpsing, tbh

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Funny, most of the time I get nothing but healers.

I did floors 50 to 60 with 3 astros and a conjurer before. I guess people run it as healer because healing is the easiest way to carry baddies.

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Originally Posted by kazeandi

let's not forget, those "damn dds", the "lazy healer" and the "shitty tank" are all people, not bots.

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Yes, and I always give the benefit of the doubt and are willing to support people who are new. However, entering PotD as a healer and thinking you can just stand around and heal? Not going to happen. I don;t even run PotD that often, but its pretty obvious everyone needs to do what they can to help the team as a whole.

Also, people are people. That doesn't mean they are somehow good or deserving of respect when they can't be assed to do something other than be carried through content.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Funny, most of the time I get nothing but healers.

I did floors 50 to 60 with 3 astros and a conjurer before. I guess people run it as healer because healing is the easiest way to carry baddies.

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I think its more they think healer is the easiest role. "because all they need to do is heal"

and seriously, no amount of healing can save some people.

I queued up for PotD a few weeks ago as SCH and was grouped up with 2 tanks and a level 45 WHM. 3 floors in the WHM says shes just going to heal, but we had very little damage incoming and the fairy was covering it just fine.
So... I suggest she use this place to practice DPSing as it's not really healing intensive. All I get back in response - "Why should I DPS? THAT'S YOUR JOB."

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Originally Posted by Butterfly

I queued up for PotD a few weeks ago as SCH and was grouped up with 2 tanks and a level 45 WHM. 3 floors in the WHM says shes just going to heal, but we had very little damage incoming and the fairy was covering it just fine.
So... I suggest she use this place to practice DPSing as it's not really healing intensive. All I get back in response - "Why should I DPS? THAT'S YOUR JOB."

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Wow. I love to DPS as WHM. If I was her, I'd love having a SCH fairy to basically handle the healing while I blasted away with Holy. What I'd like even better is to be TOLD I could just worry about DPS.

Ah, the cruelty of it all. *sigh*

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Originally Posted by Butterfly

I queued up for PotD a few weeks ago as SCH and was grouped up with 2 tanks and a level 45 WHM. 3 floors in the WHM says shes just going to heal, but we had very little damage incoming and the fairy was covering it just fine.
So... I suggest she use this place to practice DPSing as it's not really healing intensive. All I get back in response - "Why should I DPS? THAT'S YOUR JOB."

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Delusional white mages in PotD, nothing new :L

Just gonna fix something in the title:

Stop queuing for anything as a healer if you don't intend to DPS at all.