SE Please add jump and swiming

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Immersion is subjective.

The game doesn't "need" swimming or jumping, it could use it but by all means the game will not instantly be 100x better just because you can swim and emote jump.

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I was gonna say something along the same lines.

That something feels a certain way to one person does not mean it will feel that way to everyone.

The idea that "jumping adds immersion" is very subjective to begin with. I think it adds mobility. However, that kind of mobility is only useful or necessary if the game design requires or at least utilizes it. FFXI never required jumping and did quite well without it. Other MMOs like Lineage 2 never required jumping and did quite fine without it. Myriad single player games have never had a jump button and did quite well without it.. Zelda: Ocarina of Time is considered one of the best games ever made... no jump button.

Dragon Age... very successful game. No jump button.
The Witcher... successful game. No jump button.

Most of the FF titles, very successful series... no jump button in almost all of them.

And so on and so on.

Jumping in a MMO that's not designed around nor requires its use is a preference, not a requirement.

And to take the other perspective on it... Adding unrestricted jumping to a MMO could actually hinder immersion. Why? Because seeing people jumping around like hyper bunny rabbits in a high leve and dangerous area is about as unrealistic as I think you can get. And yet you see it time and again... People running high level dungeons, with deadly aggro all over the place, yet they're jumping off staircases, jumping on tables, etc, jumping non-stop. If they're in town, they're jumping on mailboxes, jumping on fountains, jumping on buildings.. jumping off buildings... That is immersion-breaking to me.

That's why I prefer a jumping system that is restricted, entails some kind of stamina bar or something to prevent people from spamming it and, preferably, not jumping unless absolutely necessary.

I'm puzzled about comments implying that FFXIV "needs" jumping and swimming to compete in this latest generation of MMOs. There are so many that are afraid of FFXIV not being original and becoming a clone of other MMOs, yet there is such a demand for so many details that are implemented in other games just because "it's the norm". There are many things that FFXIV needs, there are many things that last generation MMOs can innovate, just adding the illusion of freedom just for the sake of it are not amongst such things. In my opinion this is exactly what is dated, if you want to add something, give it purpose.

Then i ask you, why do you want jumping and swimming? because nowadays mmorpg have it and FFXIV should compite with them?

Those who think that this game needs jumping and swimming in order to succeed are wrong. Yes I would like to have jumping implemented but right now it would be useless. Make it have a meaning by creating zones that would sometimes require jumping. Play Xenoblade and you know where I come from.

It doesn't "need them in order to succeed," no. But it doesn't mean it shouldn't have them, either.

I say add it at least with some strategic mean's to it though!

I wouldn't really mind if they added jumping but I at least hope they would use it a way that actually be useful and not look horrible. Most MMOs form of jumping just look so beyond poor it's not funny. I should not be seeing people jump off of towers with a corny animation and then surviving at the end.

If they implement it I would hope it's more of a fixed jump of sorts so it doesn't look atrocious.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

What if they didn't would the game be doomed?

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look at how many mmo review sites mentioned this in all of the bad reviews it got. its hard to spot it with all of the bad stuff said but just about every one mentioned. please don't ask for proof of this i don't need to start linking old reviews, that initially kept me from buying the game. not having it does not help its "fate"

Personally, jumping and swimming doesn't appeal to me in MMO's. It looks ridiculous.
I'd personally rather have geographical barriers built out of ledges and water lines and keep the zones looking realistic and in tact.
It's only become an annoyance in this particular game because random ledges and barriers were placed in the middle of the playing field for aesthetics and has hindered player travel. The map revisions should be without such an issue so I see no need to have bouncing and splashing characters everywhere.

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Originally Posted by irongripz

look at how many mmo review sites mentioned this in all of the bad reviews it got.

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The MMO sites also basically crucified the game for not being WoW...So should FFXIV become WoW?

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Originally Posted by Jynx

The MMO sites also basically crucified the game for not being WoW...So should FFXIV become WoW?

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They crucified it for being horrible. Which it was at launch.

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Originally Posted by Shipp

They crucified it for being horrible. Which it was at launch.

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The lack of jump obviously being a key factor in this...obviously. If the game was a better game at launch I doubt many MMO-reviewers would feel the need to nit-pick the lack of a jump key.

Perhaps thats just me, using the review sights that pretty much looked for anything to slam the game on to make their negative reviews even harshers doesn't really make it a "Valid point".

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Originally Posted by Jynx

The lack of jump obviously being a key factor in this...obviously. If the game was a better game at launch I doubt many MMO-reviewers would feel the need to nit-pick the lack of a jump key.

Perhaps thats just me, using the review sights that pretty much looked for anything to slam the game on to make their negative reviews even harshers doesn't really make it a "Valid point".

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Exactly. If the game had actually included basic and standard features for MMOs, reviewers wouldn't feel the need to point out the complete lack of basic and standard features for MMOs. It's like... logic.

Review sites didn't have to nit-pick, nor did they have too search very long to find something to slam, considering this game was just asking to be slammed when it launched. Jumping was just one more prime example of SE deciding to be unique for the sake of uniqueness instead of adding a feature that is now standard for the genre. You don't decide to be unique for the sake of being unique. You decide to be unique when you are presented with a unique idea that sounds really interesting and possibly able to progress the genre out of this stagnation. Such as the active combat in upcoming MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

The standard mode of movement and transportation is running, walking, mounts and teleportation, all of which XIV has -- Jumping as a standard is an animation, it doesn't even let you get around "objects you'll get stuck on", only a few MMO does, which doesn't make it a standard.

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the standard form of movement. is moving left, right, forwards, backwards, up and down. this is in most games. with out 'jump" we are missing the standard form of movement. as for transportation i could easily put in bicycle,cars,vans, and many other forms of transportation in that broad category. But i do see your side of it. if left out forms of movement i don't like, i could make asinine comments, and make them sound like the standard. i personally would rather stick to reasonable arguments.

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Originally Posted by Shipp

Exactly. If the game had actually included basic and standard features for MMOs, reviewers wouldn't feel the need to point out the complete lack of basic and standard features for MMOs. It's like... logic.

Review sites didn't have to nit-pick, nor did they have too search very long to find something to slam, considering this game was just asking to be slammed when it launched. Jumping was just one more prime example of SE deciding to be unique for the sake of uniqueness instead of adding a feature that is now standard for the genre. You don't decide to be unique for the sake of being unique. You decide to be unique when you are presented with a unique idea that sounds really interesting and possibly able to progress the genre out of this stagnation. Such as the active combat in upcoming MMOs.

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Exactly. ( :D ) People want FFXIV to be unique. They don't want it to be like other MMOs out there, which is understandable. However, some people think that "unique" is making a list of standard MMO features and subtracting from that list instead of adding. "Global standard" comes up frequently when Yoshi-P talks about 2.0, I am sure he figures just as well that you can be your own game while at the same time having standard features, his plan seems to be building off of them and making them unique to this game.

I will say it again, though, as a note to others. There are people here on these forums that claim to be huge fans of the Final Fantasy series who say jumping and swimming will break the game and it won't be a Final Fantasy anymore. If you think that adding these things will ruin the Final Fantasy magic, you aren't a fan at all. Also, another repeat, swimming was in Final Fantasy X, along with underwater monster battles. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Shipp

SE deciding to be unique for the sake of uniqueness

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What a bold faced claim you have there.

Did it ever occur to you SE may have noticed something like a "Jump" feature would do abysmally with the system they are currently running? Jump has massive hurdles before it can even be imagined in the game.

Not only is there currently no content for it, the mechanic wouldn't work on the games infastructure "The one they launched on" So even if it did come up from dev talk it was likely to have been quickly shot down due to issues like server responsiveness.

I still don't get what you think adding a jump function is going to bring this game, even in 2.0 I don't see anything that I would enjoy coming from a jump function that I couldn't get some other way.

There is more than one way to go about issues like creating unique zones, boundries, reactive content, jump is not the end all answer to everyones prayers. Nor is it going to make things amazing, or possibly even add anything to the game. Maybe instead of implementing super mario platformer elements into the game, they could make unique zones you have to navigate on foot?

Why does jump have to be the answer?

Christ I might as well slam the game for not having orcs, lots of MMO's have orcs right? The distinct lack of orcs displeases me, it's a staple of the MMO genre. I don't get the "Logic" of slamming the game because it didn't have a jump feature, because within the bounds of the game it had 0 purpose. Would reviewers have givin it flak if jumping was useless? Probably not they wouldn't have even glossed over it I bet.

"The jumping system of this game sucks" I bet I can find tons of reviews that go indepth about how usefull the jump function is in games...probably not.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

What a bold faced claim you have there.

Did it ever occur to you SE may have noticed something like a "Jump" feature would do abysmally with the system they are currently running? Jump has massive hurdles before it can even be imagined in the game.

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I already stated jump before 2.0 is pointless, though I wouldn't care if they added it. I also stated that since 2.0 has been confirmed (as was linked to you already), 2.0 terrain should be designed around the ability to jump, hence 2.0 should launch with jump.

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Not only is there currently no content for it, the mechanic wouldn't work on the games infastructure "The one they launched on" So even if it did come up from dev talk it was likely to have been quickly shot down due to issues like server responsiveness.

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They've already confirmed it is coming. I am talking about 2.0, stop bringing up the current engine when that's a moot point.

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I still don't get what you think adding a jump function is going to bring this game, even in 2.0 I don't see anything that I would enjoy coming from a jump function that I couldn't get some other way.

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YOU don't see it. I, along with other people, do see the point of it. It allows the devs to design encounters with even more elements when you add jumping to the mix. People say WoW's jumping is pointless, even though some raid bosses utilize it, and some dungeons require jumping across ledges. 2 level 15-20 dungeons easily come to mind, Black Fathom Deeps at the beginning when you have to jump on the ruins after you swim across the first room. The other is Wailing Caverns, towards the end there is a small gap on a ledge that you have to jump to, otherwise you'll fall down into the water.

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There is more than one way to go about issues like creating unique zones, boundries, reactive content, jump is not the end all answer to everyones prayers. Nor is it going to make things amazing, or possibly even add anything to the game. Maybe instead of implementing super mario platformer elements into the game, they could make unique zones you have to navigate on foot?

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Or, they could make unique zones that you have to navigate ALONG with adding jumping. The two are not mutually exclusive.

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Why does jump have to be the answer?

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Why does jump have to be the problem?

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Christ I might as well slam the game for not having orcs, lots of MMO's have orcs right? The distinct lack of orcs displeases me, it's a staple of the MMO genre. I don't get the "Logic" of slamming the game because it didn't have a jump feature, because within the bounds of the game it had 0 purpose. Would reviewers have givin it flak if jumping was useless? Probably not they wouldn't have even glossed over it I bet.

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You see no purpose in it. Other people do. Game doesn't revolve around you or me, it revolves around the whole playerbase as a collective. If a large portion wants jump, jump should be added. Adding it is not taking anything away from you.

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"The jumping system of this game sucks" I bet I can find tons of reviews that go indepth about how usefull the jump function is in games...probably not.

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Yet the majority of MMOs have jump and you don't find one review stating it was a a bad decision to add it.

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Originally Posted by Shipp

Yet the majority of MMOs have jump and you don't find one review stating it was a a bad decision to add it.

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Nor do I see many even take note of it as a usefull feature.

I agree that the masses will determine wether jump is implemented or not, but as it stands Yoshida has even been quoted saying a large faction of the playerbase is set against jump.

My issue is what happens when such context and time sensetive systems like jumping a boss attack is plagued because a user doesn't have a connection as good as the others? Lag then becomes a very real threat even if it's a small ammount of lag. From what I understand people with DSL connections tend to experience a decent ammount of input lag in MMO's something like a precision jump could turn out to be a massive issue for them.

I will keep bringing up the current system because when I said it was obviously not put in because of the current system it is relevant to when reviewers tore it apart that it would have been impossible to implement. I'm still not seeing confirmation anywhere that it will be in the game, it's still under the review process in the dev-tracker.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Nor do I see many even take note of it as a usefull feature.

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See those reviews saying that the game doesn't even have jump? That's taking note it's a useful feature. Do you see reviews stating that auction houses are a useful feature? Do you see reviews taking note that proper party search tools are a useful feature? No, because they're expected. When a game chooses not to implement them, they get ripped a new one because they didn't add basic features expected of modern games in that genre.

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I agree that the masses will determine wether jump is implemented or not, but as it stands Yoshida has even been quoted saying a large faction of the playerbase is set against jump.

My issue is what happens when such context and time sensetive systems like jumping a boss attack is plagued because a user doesn't have a connection as good as the others? Lag then becomes a very real threat even if it's a small ammount of lag. From what I understand people with DSL connections tend to experience a decent ammount of input lag in MMO's something like a precision jump could turn out to be a massive issue for them.

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By your logic, every fight should be a tank and spank fight. I've never died to any movement mechanics in any game due to lag. I've died due to not paying attention. Most people who die due to not paying attention blame lag for their own short comings. Just like people in crappy parties in XI would pull their modem's cord, log back on 15 minutes later and say that they D/C'd and couldn't get back on. It's the same thing, people lie. I fought Ifrit and don't have a problem with this "animation lag" besides being locked into position when casting a spell, which is stupid. I should not be locked into position and unable to move after I have cast a spell. I shouldn't be locked in to position at all, even while casting. If I choose to move, either keep casting like XIV's system, or interrupt my spell like every other MMO.

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I will keep bringing up the current system because when I said it was obviously not put in because of the current system it is relevant to when reviewers tore it apart that it would have been impossible to implement. I'm still not seeing confirmation anywhere that it will be in the game, it's still under the review process in the dev-tracker.

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You don't know that it would have been impossible to implement. That is an assumption. You can keep denying that it's coming all you want, that doesn't change the fact that you have been linked three separate posts confirming it by people who work at SE.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Immersion is subjective.

The game doesn't "need" swimming or jumping, it could use it but by all means the game will not instantly be 100x better just because you can swim and emote jump.

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"Immersion is subjective" - Your answer for everything... that tireless response is subjective.

The game doesn't need airships or chocobos either since we have teleport, but its nice to have them isn't it? The more the game has, the more immersive it becomes due to the choices we make about how we want to experience the game. And yes, the game would be 100x better with more features like meaningful jumping, swimming and even climbing.

I keep wondering why the people against jump can't ever come up with a reasonable argument for their crusade against that feature. I say crusade because they are dead set against it and they show it with a passion. And yet, all i hear is " i don't see what it would add to the game, even tho' there's walls of text from people for it that explain why and how it would be a good feature. Even without the explanation, there's ton of MMOs out there that have it and that should be a good example enough. Oh and don't tell me that jump in WOW is only there to make you look like a monkey, because in WOW your freedom of exploration and general traveling is far superior to FFXI and FFXIV. It doesn't feel restrictive in any way. Pure freedom.

SO in the end it all comes down to these people are probably afraid of major changes or are just FFXI fanboys who want FFXIV to ressemble XI as closely as possible or just WOW haters who dislike absolutely anything that game has to offer, even if 80% of them never played it.

Bottom line if you don't see what jumping adds to the game, then just shut up about it and let the other people who want it enjoy it. You keep walking my friends that's all.

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Originally Posted by Onidemon

Bottom line if you don't see what jumping adds to the game, then just shut up about it and let the other people who want it enjoy it. You keep walking my friends that's all.

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How close minded, we are allowed our opinions as well.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

How close minded, we are allowed our opinions as well.

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And that is perfectly fine. However it's pretty selfish to say you don't think it should be in the game due to your perception of it being pointless when other people want it. Adding it takes nothing away from you.

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Originally Posted by Shipp

And that is perfectly fine. However it's pretty selfish to say you don't think it should be in the game due to your perception of it being pointless when other people want it. Adding it takes nothing away from you.

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It takes much away from me, it hurts the asthetics of the game, and leads to content where I am forced to use the function wether I want to or not.

Saying it has no effect on me is naive. I might as well say not having it doesn't effect you, and I'd be just as wrong.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

How close minded, we are allowed our opinions as well.

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Indeed you are allowed your opinions. I won't deny you that. But what is close minded is "I don't want something just for the sake of not wanting it and so everyone else shouldn't have it either"

I might even call that pure selfishness knowing that these are most likely optional features. If you don't want to use jump then don't. Nobody is demanding that SE makes it part of core gameplay but we only ask that the option is there. If you want to take the long route and walk around like we do now then keep doing it. I on the other hand will jump down the cliff and do my own thing will i wait for you to get there... and keep waiting and waiting and waiting... god what's taking you so long? :)

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Originally Posted by Petori

Those who think that this game needs jumping and swimming in order to succeed are wrong. Yes I would like to have jumping implemented but right now it would be useless. Make it have a meaning by creating zones that would sometimes require jumping. Play Xenoblade and you know where I come from.

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you and everyone else is missing the point. this game will always have more limitations as long as there is no jumping and swimming. your can not compete in a race when you start the race in last, and your car is limited to less than your opponent.


now for all this uniqueness crap.. there are many ways to be unique with out completely ignoring a very meaningful action. you are actually taking away from the uniqueness that could be there with out having this feature. its like saying only having one style of mount make us unique because everyone else has a variety. i feel the people that has variety is more unique than the dull minded people with out creativity.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

It takes much away from me, it hurts the asthetics of the game, and leads to content where I am forced to use the function wether I want to or not.

Saying it has no effect on me is naive. I might as well say not having it doesn't effect you, and I'd be just as wrong.

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Only when having a conversation with someone who comes from FFXI will you hear things like jumping makes a video game ugly.

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Originally Posted by Onidemon

Only when having a conversation with someone who comes from FFXI will you hear things like jumping makes a video game ugly.

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I played Ultima Online as well, it survived many years without a jump button.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Jump in the future is confirmed
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post208815

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that confirms nothing, that only confirms a forum admin saying something he should not have.

The question is not, can we have jump? the question is, does FFXIV need jump? and the answer to that is no.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

I played Ultima Online as well, it survived many years without a jump button.

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It is still going btw ;p

Why don't you guys put yourselves in a developper's shoes? Your starting a brand new mmo. First you take a look around and see what defines a mmorpg in 2011. What features have become a standard when it comes to gameplay. So for sure this is something you will want in your game right? I mean when you want players to come to you, why would they if you offer less then the competition right from the get go? The least is to start on par with the competiton. You want to offer as many possibilities gameplay wise as possible. Why would you want to restrict yourself? Even more, you will want to do something with these features that the competition has not done yet.

You don't get players to come by offering less and bank everything on your unique. You think BMW will come up with a new car, with no AC, no leather interior, no cruise control, no abs, no cup holders, no electric windows and doors but be like well our car looks prettier and realistically think people will come to them? No, you offer standard feature first and then more.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

It takes much away from me, it hurts the asthetics of the game, and leads to content where I am forced to use the function wether I want to or not.

Saying it has no effect on me is naive. I might as well say not having it doesn't effect you, and I'd be just as wrong.

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Pumpkin helms shouldn't be allowed because it's ruining my experience of realistic aesthetics.

Sorry, but that excuse doesn't work. And as I already said, saying you don't want jump, because you don't want to have boss encounters where jump in involved tells me you want no challenging content, only tank and spank fights.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

I played Ultima Online as well, it survived many years without a jump button.

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Not like Ultima could do anything with jump with the type of graphics it has....

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Originally Posted by Shipp

you want no challenging content, only tank and spank fights.

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Yup because thats exactly what I said, Challenging content always involves jumping because thats ultra challenging. Make sure I press the jump button at the right time guys!

Challenge can come from more places than bunny hoping over the greatsword swing of a giant you know right?

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Yup because thats exactly what I said, Challenging content always involves jumping because thats ultra challenging. Make sure I press the jump button at the right time guys!

Challenge can come from more places than bunny hoping over the greatsword swing of a giant you know right?

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Jumping adds another layer of mechanics that can be implemented. You have stated you don't want to see it because it will affect you in this way. What else can I possibly take from this?

Tank and spank fights are not challenging. I can't really recall any challenging fights in XI besides gimmick fights. Fights like Dynamis Lord weren't challenging. They were extremely ridiculous since the whole run could be one-shot. That's not a challenge, that's a cheap mechanic. I want situational awareness to be a key to fights. Jumping allows more options for that.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

It takes much away from me, it hurts the asthetics of the game, and leads to content where I am forced to use the function wether I want to or not.

Saying it has no effect on me is naive. I might as well say not having it doesn't effect you, and I'd be just as wrong.

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it would not effect you because you do not have to play the content if you chose not to. now if you CHOSE to play the content you are no forced into jumping. its a mechanic that other want.

by your analogy, if one group wants to play with a kind of ball and you don't, it effects you because it "takes away from you" what ever that means, "it does not look as good as other balls do to you", and if you want to play with the others that do want it, your forced to play with it. so you would rather there just not be that kind of ball at all. you children seriously need to learn to play nicely with others. stop trying to take the ball from us because you don't want to play with it and you THINK no one else should either.

to be honest not wanting jump just because you might actually have to do it, is just lazy. might as well do away with pressing any actions at all because I am forced to do so if i want to complete content that is being made. the game should play its self.

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Originally Posted by irongripz

it would not effect you because you do not have to play the content if you chose not to. now if you CHOSE to play the content you are no forced into jumping. its a mechanic that other want.

by your analogy, if one group wants to play with a kind of ball and you don't, it effects you because it "takes away from you" what ever that means, "it does not look as good as other balls do to you", and if you want to play with the others that do want it, your forced to play with it. so you would rather there just not be that kind of ball at all. you children seriously need to learn to play nicely with others. stop trying to take the ball from us because you don't want to play with it and you THINK no one else should either.

to be honest not wanting jump just because you might actually have to do it, is just lazy. might as well do away with pressing any actions at all because I am forced to do so if i want to complete content that is being made. the game should play its self.

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Yup, well put. We can also look at it with existing features in the game like the ifrit fight and the instanced dungeons. If someone doesn't like or want to do them they are not forced to. They can still go and do everything else so it is no reason to penalize everyone for something you don't want to do or use.

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Originally Posted by irongripz

by your analogy, if one group wants to play with a kind of ball and you don't, it effects you because it "takes away from you" what ever that means

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No it means I wont be able to go to the playground if I don't use that kind of ball.

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You don't get players to come by offering less and bank everything on your unique. You think BMW will come up with a new car, with no AC, no leather interior, no cruise control, no abs, no cup holders, no electric windows and doors but be like well our car looks prettier and realistically think people will come to them? No, you offer standard feature first and then more.

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not having those makes that car a unique piece of crap that i wouldn't buy lol

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Originally Posted by Jynx

No it means I wont be able to go to the playground if I don't use that kind of ball.

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That is because you ASSUME that jumping will be NEEDED to play the game or certain aspects but that's only you assuming. Do other mmos force you to use it? I think not.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

No it means I wont be able to go to the playground if I don't use that kind of ball.

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No, it means you simply don't play with that ball at the playground, and that analogy doesn't even work for MMOs. The ball analogy did, your branch veering off the beaten path didn't.