Tanks using their enmity combo while being OT

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Originally Posted by Canadane

If you're having enmity issues, perhaps you should be the OT and let the warrior MT.

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Careful, you'll hurt someone's pride with lines like that! Less DPS for everyone!

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

By your logic, yes it should hold true, but in raid/trial encounters, path should only be used when needed, not because the MT can't keep hate.

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Every 20 seconds it's needed unless it's a burn phase.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

If you're having enmity issues, perhaps you should be the OT and let the warrior MT.

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Nobody's having enmity issues. We are talking about maximising group DPS, you know, the thing you're not doing.
I really wonder how can someone completly miss the point, even after it being repeated over and over for 12 pages. It's kind of impressive and sad at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Nobody's having enmity issues. We are talking about maximising group DPS, you know, the thing you're not doing.
I really wonder how can someone completly miss the point, even after it being repeated over and over for 12 pages. It's kind of impressive and sad at the same time.

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That's exactly the point though. If you DO want to maximize DPS, you have the Warrior MT, and the other tank go OT. THAT is actually maximizing group DPS. A paladin or Dark Knight MT isn't maximum DPS, it's always been Warrior MT for maximum DPS.

This is of course assuming that we're talking DPS stance main tanking. Last I remember, DRK beats out Warrior MT DPS in any situation wherein 100% tank stance up time is required, but only then, last I'd heard.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

WAR on the other hand, while having access to unchained every 2 mins, still loses at least 800 potency if you count an average of 4 fell cleaves per min. also you won't use inner beast asap considering it's a defence tool and unchained needs wrath stacks aswell.

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These numbers only hold true if you need to stay in tank stance for the entirety of the fight, which only happens when your first concern is 'survivbility and progressing through an encounter'. Typically, DPS only starts entering the equation once the group has already hit enrage, which is the point at which tanks start fine tuning their usage of cooldowns to minimize or even potentially eradicate tank stance up time. During this stage of an encounter, with 100% tank stance uptime, DRK DPS beats out Warrior's due to the mentioned points.

Once it gets down to actually farming the instance, though, Warrior MT DPS beats out everyone else by a rather wide margin. (I believe stated numbers were DRK 8% behind Warrior's total MT DPS?) This happens because a Warrior can much more easily push both hate and DPS then either other tank, rendering it a moot point.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

stuff

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MT DRK doesn't change it's rotation at all, except that you don't have blood weapon (until you end up dropping grit) but gain reprisal and low blow procs in exchange.

WAR on the other hand, while having access to unchained every 2 mins, still loses at least 800 potency if you count an average of 4 fell cleaves per min. also you won't use inner beast asap considering it's a defence tool and unchained needs wrath stacks aswell.

so I really doubt that MT WAR, OT DRK will do more damage than the other way around.
MT WAR, OT PLD is definitely a gain though (for now)

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

If you DO want to maximize DPS, you have the Warrior MT, and the other tank go OT. THAT is actually maximizing group DPS. A paladin or Dark Knight MT isn't maximum DPS, it's always been Warrior MT for maximum DPS.

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Flatly incorrect.

DRK deals more damage as a main tank than as an off-tank, because a main tank DRK deals all the damage of an off-tank DRK, plus whatever extra damage you get out of Reprisal and Blood Price.
WAR deals more damage as an off-tank than as a main-tank, because as an off-tank they need to replace zero Fell Cleaves with Inner Beasts, and as an off-tank they can reserve Vengeance, Raw Intuition, and Infuriate purely as Abandon-generators without needing to save them for mitigation.

If A > B and C > D, then there is no way that B + D > A + C, regardless of whether or not D > A.

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Originally Posted by Crater

Flatly incorrect.

DRK deals more damage as a main tank than as an off-tank, because a main tank DRK deals all the damage of an off-tank DRK, plus whatever extra damage you get out of Reprisal and Blood Price.
WAR deals more damage as an off-tank than as a main-tank, because as an off-tank they need to replace zero Fell Cleaves with Inner Beasts, and as an off-tank they can reserve Vengeance, Raw Intuition, and Infuriate purely as Abandon-generators without needing to save them for mitigation.

If A > B and C > D, then there is no way that B + D > A + C, regardless of whether or not D > A.

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This exactly. A MT DRK ideally would not have to use grit and through the use of a ninja this would be possible.

A MT DRK in this scenario loses nothing and gains extra Dark Arts, Reprisals, and Low Blows.

A warrior would still be doing their maximum DPS and probably more.

However, As soon as the DRK has to fight the warrior for aggro it is more DPS for the WAR to tank.Of course these are ideal scenarios and the maximum group DPS you can achieve is highly dependent on a bunch of different factors that im too lazy to lay out and it really isnt the point of this thread.

If we want to talk optimal min/max, you have the WAR pull with NIN Shade Walker + early 3x FC (pre-Infuriate + RI @ 1s etc) so that Vengeance ticks hit the boss and WAR is in Deliverance asap.

Even more min/max, you just use 2 WARs.

Regardless, though, in a DRK/WAR comp you'd end up with more group DPS if you let the DRK take over after Berserk fades.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

...it's always been Warrior MT for maximum DPS.

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Wasn't SwO pld able to outdps war w/o Defiance as mt pre-heavensward?

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

Wasn't SwO pld able to outdps war w/o Defiance as mt pre-heavensward?

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Yeah, things have changed immensely though. They could've possibly brought this back if they scaled up Shield Swipe attack power instead of putting it oGCD, but oh well, hopefully the fixes in 3.2 will be good.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

If we want to talk optimal min/max, you have the WAR pull with NIN Shade Walker + early 3x FC (pre-Infuriate + RI @ 1s etc) so that Vengeance ticks hit the boss and WAR is in Deliverance asap.

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Could you not also have the WAR do the same thing except OT, Shadewalker the DRK as he pulls out of Grit, and achieve the exact same DPS + Reprisal/Low Blow Procs and a 4x DASE chain thanks to BP+BW at the cost of some Vengeance counterattacks?

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Storm's Path being a selling point was news to me up until Heavensward, despite picking it up in 2.0 for a bit. It wasn't even until I started browsing the forums that I noticed people claiming it was the greatest thing ever, and yet I have never found any particular reason to use it in most content, except while leveling 38-49 for it's minor self heal when I saw the healer was having a hard time for whatever reason. Warrior's selling point back then was Inner Beast.

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Okay, I apologize, but at this point I have to stop and ask if you even raid.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Could you not also have the WAR do the same thing except OT, Shadewalker the DRK as he pulls out of Grit, and achieve the exact same DPS + Reprisal/Low Blow Procs and a 4x DASE chain thanks to BP+BW at the cost of some Vengeance counterattacks?

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Depends on the fight (mainly if the boss stops attacking for any periods in the opening), but Vengeance is a 15s 50 potency reflect buffed by Berserk, IR, potion (iirc), and crit stacks. Pretty strong, dunno if Reprisal/Low Blow/extra DASE would make up for it, but haven't exactly mapped it out.

As a side note, with a DRK/WAR composition during early progression, it's better to have the DRK pull just to have Reprisal and Path up asap. Usually this is what you start with, and unless the DPS check is suuuuuuper tight you don't really want to start switching roles around.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Depends on the fight (mainly if the boss stops attacking for any periods in the opening), but Vengeance is a 15s 50 potency reflect buffed by Berserk, IR, potion (iirc), and crit stacks. Pretty strong, dunno if Reprisal/Low Blow/extra DASE would make up for it, but haven't exactly mapped it out.

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Vengeance return hits can crit? Is that a thing that happens?

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

Vengeance return hits can crit? Is that a thing that happens?

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I can't imagine they wouldn't be able to, they're 50 potency attacks so they should be subject to crit% like normal attacks, dots, heals, etc.

If for some reason they're not, it's still a 50 potency reflect buffed by Berserk which on its own is pretty dang strong.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

I use my BB combo and I rarely rip hate off my MT. Even if I do it's usually an add that doesn't matter, like in A2S.

You're giving an unqualified "don't ever do this" advice and it's not that simple.

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Talyaaaa we're gonna discuss this later xD

Read much more of this entire thread than i'd like to admit lol but it was entertaining. This thread should've been titled BB vs SE/RA. OT wars are not going ham with all these BBs without plds/drks using RoH/PS, which is where the overall dps loss is(which has already been brought up in this thread). Look at the numbers. When it comes to enmity generation, it's not all about the damage since the BB multiplier makes RA/SE pale in comparison. Yea plds have a reason to use their enmity combo so that dps loss can be justifiable but for drks, dps loss is all it is. Maybe wars should just mt lol dont know myself about that, haven't bothered to look at the gains vs losing reprisal/lowblow/shieldswipe.

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Originally Posted by KinSlayer009

Don't post anything ever again.
http://i.imgur.com/GV28cDE.jpg

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Also what are you 5 years old? What's the point of posting if you're just going to bash someone. Maybe they didn't know BB was highest potency combo. Grow up. Don't post anything ever again.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I can't imagine they wouldn't be able to, they're 50 potency attacks so they should be subject to crit% like normal attacks, dots, heals, etc.

If for some reason they're not, it's still a 50 potency reflect buffed by Berserk which on its own is pretty dang strong.

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I can confirm Vengeance reflect hits do crit; I play with floating damage texts on and see them constantly.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Nobody's having enmity issues. We are talking about maximising group DPS, you know, the thing you're not doing.
I really wonder how can someone completly miss the point, even after it being repeated over and over for 12 pages. It's kind of impressive and sad at the same time.

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I'd like to point out, Canadane is one of the few people on this forum with great common sense and tends to be rather witty, and the OP is about the MT having enmity issues when the OT uses a BB combo, only the hereafter delves into maximizing dps.

#halfright ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Vengeance return hits can crit yeah. Noticed it when I saw a crit on my main attack, a crit on my AA, and a 3rd ... weird 501 crit???? Wait what's that? ohh vengeance is up, cool those return attacks can crit.

Regarding the topic, wished to mention an exemple. Been struggling with Thordan Trap Pf's past week, I had a Pld i210 all str, mt, pulled the boss, died, boss came to me, trying to recover, for some reason I lost aggro to the Whm into Defiance and using BB as first intention. "Tanks hold aggro, do your job" ... let's not argue.

Later, after the Whm ate 2 times the same AoE and died we made it to adds, for the approximatly 1000th time, I use provoke/tomahawk on the add, and ... wtf, the add goes to the whm, and the whm get ... rekt. "Tank you scrub can't keep hate on a mob" ... let's not argue #2.

Then what happened here, Pld was standing in SwO after his first RoH combo pull on ShO, his aggro was so low at phase change, when I paid attention, the Whm was like 2 on the enmity list but his bar was totally full, and mine a bit lower.

Who blame, Pld trying to max his dps but maybe a bit too greedy, Whm probly not using SoS, or War losing an add with the copied aggro table from phase1. I don't know, I asked the Pld to let me Mt, and hopefully no more aggro issues.

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Originally Posted by LuceliaUltima

Who blame, Pld trying to max his dps but maybe a bit too greedy, Whm probly not using SoS, or War losing an add with the copied aggro table from phase1. I don't know, I asked the Pld to let me Mt, and hopefully no more aggro issues.

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Sounds like the Whm was spamming Medica II, or as I affectionately refer to it, "Cool it on the Cure VI plz".

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

Sounds like the Whm was spamming Medica II, or as I affectionately refer to it, "Cool it on the Cure VI plz".

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No no no don't you get it? The entire point of this thread is if the MT loses hate its 100% their fault all the time no questions asked and under no circumstances should a gud player that is not the MT ever consider their enmity generation. That's a train that stops for nobody! ><

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Each time you use RH (would it be in your opener or anywhere in the fight), the only question you'd have to ask yourself is "why can't I do a RA instead?".
If the answer is:
a)because the WAR OT won't apply SP, so I need to keep RH debuff,
b)because the WAR OT's Butcher's block will generate too much enmity, so I need to generate more,
... then it's a potency loss for the group in either cases, not even accounting the fact that RH debuff is worse than SP.
Same line of thinking applies to "why can't I be in Sword oath right now?". If it's because of BB from the OT WAR, then it's a problem and a great loss for the group.


Of course, if it's not any of these very few and specific cases, then it's probably fine.

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AND

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

This guy gets it.

Like in my raid I have a planned out set of enmity combos on a boss in each phase and know generally how much threat my healer(s) is going to generate. Any extra I have to use on Paladin OR Dark Knight is a straight damage loss. Warriors doing BB/SE for extended periods of time does more enmity than what I have planned and is a straight raid dps loss to correct for.

And yes I have cleared savage turns on both Paladin and Dark Knight.

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Thank you for clarifying! It sounds like we are not far off on the RoH usage (with my present exception to a physical heavy fight – meaning I have some new things to work on)

I run into too many people that simply don’t have a high level of understanding about how PLD can be optimized. “Spam Flash, ?what is SwO?, etc etc. The unfortunate side effect is that I have found what I think is normal is nowhere close to many other peoples definition of normal.

There was an entire linkshell conversation that a friend of mine witnessed, where they said that there were no PLD’s that could push out over 1k as OT and couldn’t MT over 600 ( I think that second number is right, but may be wrong, I wasn’t in game.) Neither of these are true, I do them and honestly if I can manage level of play, so can anyone who puts forth effort. *** side note, my TP was floored at about 2:45- 2:50, dammit SE

Witnessing so many tanks that only feed into the negative stereotypes of each tank class (I’m a PLD I don’t do damage, I’m a WAR hur dur mah deeps, I’m a DRK but really I’m a former DPS – what is a cool down?) I simply don’t take the definition of normal for granted.

So my apologies Instrumentality, for my initial confusion about your statement.

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Originally Posted by LuceliaUltima

.....Then what happened here, Pld was standing in SwO after his first RoH combo pull on ShO, his aggro was so low at phase change, when I paid attention, the Whm was like 2 on the enmity list but his bar was totally full, and mine a bit lower.

Who blame, Pld trying to max his dps but maybe a bit too greedy, Whm probly not using SoS, or War losing an add with the copied aggro table from phase1. I don't know, I asked the Pld to let me Mt, and hopefully no more aggro issues.

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Sadly, Syz has a “valid” point, though in actuality Iagainsti is correct. Healers only get that high if they are a Medica 2 bot, or are in panic healing mode and way over AoE. But boy oh boy, tell a healer that is guilty of that and 8/10 will tell you where to stick it.

I’ve noticed this more and more as we are testing out a new healer for our raid group. These result in mana issues, which in turn suck the damage out of your BRD/MCH .

While there's been a lot of discussion about fault, I don't think that's really the take-home message from this thread. As a tank, you always have to adjust your play-style to the people you're playing with. There's always something more that you can do on a personal level to help improve raid performance and bolster others' weaknesses.

If your WAR OT absolutely refuses to deviate from a stock two-combo rotation in response to the present enmity levels, then you will have to use more threat combos or stance dance to compensate. There's no point in sticking to your guns, losing aggro, and then arguing about it while dps gets cleaved and loses their positionals.

In situations like these, it's better to cut your OT some slack. Sometimes, people just want to be able to enjoy the game without dealing with the hassle of being a real tank or a real dps. Sometimes, people just want to relish the coarse sensation of their face gliding across the keyboard, and being forced to watch enmity bars gives you eye-strain and gets in the way of that. Don't begrudge them their fun; adapt and move on.

We're not really talking about this kind of tank.

The principles discussed in this thread apply to situations in which both your MT and OT are actively collaborating to coordinate their enmity generation and maximize raid dps. The enmity lead might seem uncomfortably slim at times, but this is both intentional and planned for; MT is actively trying to expend as much of their resources into dps as possible. In these situations, should we get the WAR to sneak in one more BB while MT widens the threat gap? Or should we get WAR to pull back a bit while the MT pushes more dps? What's the best way for us to maximize our combined dps and get the most use of our combined cooldowns and resources?

These are the sort of tanks that we're talking about. If you feel this doesn't apply to you, don't worry about it.

Okay so here's a scenario.

WAR and DRK are fighting a thing. DRK is MTing outside of Grit after having established enmity with a 3-4 GCD Grit opener w/ Power Slash, dropping Grit afterwards. Both are now in their DPS stances. DRK is contributing proc-DPS and has access to Blood Weapon and Blood Price MP, WAR is getting all their cleaves, full Berserk uptime, and keeping Storm's Eye up, with Butcher's Block combos in between.

DRK is dealing 1200 sustained DPS (accounting for having Storm's Eye from the WAR).

WAR is dealing 1200 sustained DPS.

Both are of equal gear and identical Attack Power.

Now lets say, for the sake of this instance, that 200 of that WAR's 1200 DPS is from BB combos. Given the modifiers of Skull Sunder (3.5) and Butcher's Block (5.5) we can average out that that 200 DPS from the BB combo is modifying that fraction of their DPS by a factor of 4.5x. Any number really, will work here, these don't need to be accurate to prove a point.

Lets say that in the opener, the DRK generated 20000 points of enmity (damage dealt*any modifiers). The WAR generated 10000.

Now, with them both dealing 1200 DPS but the WAR dealing 1900 TPS (threat per second), in well under a minute, the WAR will catch up with the DRK's lead.

So, the WAR can either allow the DRK to maintain their lead by using SE in place of BB, unless SP is needed, and deal 1190 DPS instead of 1200, or, knock the DRK down to 1150 DPS by forcing them to use Power Slash more than is optimal.

I'll also note that the use of Power Slash is not only a DPS loss but an MP (and therefore further DPS loss) for the DRK, whereas repeated SE usage means Maim and the Slashing debuff are less in danger of falling off should there be a few seconds of downtime for a mechanic, which is a potential DPS gain for the WAR, as well any other users of slashing damage.

Letting the WAR MT (outside of arguably the opener as many people have said) in this scenario is also a DPS and mitigation loss for the raid. There are likely to be fewer Fell Cleaves, no Reprisal (therefore less mitigation) or Low Blow procs from the DRK, and no Blood Price returns forcing a more restrictive rotation. Arguments stating that so-and-so should just MT are fallacious and assume a premise that was never put in place, which is that there is some ridiculous gear discrepancy rendering these numbers moot, and posit that if the WAR must sacrifice any amount of potency it can only be due to a lack of skill or gear on the part of their MT, which is needlessly antagonistic and also categorically untrue. Are you not hitting the peak of your personal DPS by a couple dozen points of damage per second? Perhaps. But is that more important than a net-loss for the -group-? You may see it as you being forced to play suboptimally but know that you risk forcing another player to play exponentially MORE suboptimally, thus a net-loss for the group. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one.

That being said, WAR is still a tank and any tank should know how to read enmity meters, and therefore, they can know at any given time if it is in fact safe to use a BB combo for extra DPS, and can easily come to the conclusion that if their enmity has reached a level where the meters between them and their MT are scarcely a pixel apart, the responsible thing for them to do in that scenario is to stop generating excess enmity. It is an extremely small sacrifice to make for the sake of the group and is NOT your MT's fault unless you are in pug content and the MT very clearly and demonstrably does not know what they are doing; and even then, in the interest of getting oneself OUT of the DF and moving on with one's day, my recommendation would be to not troll the guy and just work around his inadequacies, a wipe followed by you lecturing him won't teach anybody anything, it'll just piss people off and lengthen the period of time that they're stuck in the duty finder with you.

You and your party are not supposed to be fighting for a clear against your MT's enmity, you're fighting for a clear against the boss. Pull together, not apart, kill the boss, use ALL of your tools and judgement to make that happen as cleanly as possible; you are not an island unto yourself if you're in a party with 7 other people.

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

Sadly, Syz has a “valid” point

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I think you missed the sarcasm, there.

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Originally Posted by AI_wass

I think you missed the sarcasm, there.

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Nope, I got it like Von Miller got Cam Newton on Sunday.... BOOM

The truth of the situation (healer problem) becomes obscured by the perception (that it's only the fault of the MT for loss of emnity).

My point - get your popcorn and butter, because if you tell a healer that situation is their fault, the salt shall most undoubtedly fly.

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

Nope, I got it like Von Miller got Cam Newton on Sunday.... BOOM

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https://media.giphy.com/media/w5fmyQcg3yI4U/giphy.gif

T.J. Ward's reaction to the Von Miller dance is the best in the NFL

http://i.imgur.com/XE7n4KX.gif

He's like "I dunno what you're doing, man, but I feel you."

Edit: Also to keep it a bit on topic, I guess we all kind of agree now? This is cool.

No. There are only a few reasons why I don't Butchers Block as OT, and they're because the MT is in Deliverance/NoGrit/Sword Oath and is DPSing and their DPS outweighs the 50~80 DPS I gain from using my BB combo (almost 3K BB Crits bro). Also if the MT specifically asks me not to butchers block in my opener I'll just double Storms Eye. If I'm ripping aggro it's because one of us is not paying attention to the threat meters, and it's usually always the MT. The MT should be doing everything they can to keep that from happening. Warrior MTs NEVER have problems with losing aggro if they do their opener right. Heck, they can even be in deliverance and never lose aggro to a BBing OT if played right.

If the MT just NEEDS to pull in Deliverance/NoGrit/SwordOath then bring a long a Ninja. Aggro should never be a problem and if it is the MT sucks and needs to "git gud" or get better gear.

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Originally Posted by Liyonn

No. There are only a few reasons why I don't Butchers Block as OT, and they're because the MT is in Deliverance/NoGrit/Sword Oath and is DPSing and their DPS outweighs the 50~80 DPS I gain from using my BB combo (almost 3K BB Crits bro). Also if the MT specifically asks me not to butchers block in my opener I'll just double Storms Eye. If I'm ripping aggro it's because one of us is not paying attention to the threat meters, and it's usually always the MT. The MT should be doing everything they can to keep that from happening. Aggro should never be a problem and if it is the MT sucks and needs to "git gud" or get better gear.

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Well, bro, my SE crits are almost 3k too without the added enmity modifier, so again BB combos are not good when you're OT and even though maintaining aggro is the MT's job, you're not making it easier and your reasoning of miniscule damage increase is not a good platform. Heed your own "git gud" advice ;D

It is like a revolving door of people not reading the thread and making the exact same wrong points that the previous ten people have made.

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

It is like a revolving door of people not reading the thread and making the exact same wrong points that the previous ten people have made.

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This is why, friend, you should do what I do in these forums...... Bring a huge big bag of popcorn and your favorite drink as you read through the pages. :p

@Whoever thinks BB is all that jazz... It's 10 potency higher than SE. Yep, only 10.... Maim being 10 lower than Skull Sunder is why the combo costs 20 less potency. And 20 potency over 6 GCDs hurts all of no one... really. Specially if the others don't have to worry about you ripping hate (and you popping defiance and/or CDs to stay alive).

In this topic:

People who truly want to optimize vs selfish players.

MT: "Can you tone it down on the BB please?"
OT: "Can you tone it down on the badness?" *cleaves the raid*.

Lets just give BB a frontal positional. Surely then the people who say that the OT ripping hate (by spamming BB mindlessly) should be MT will be made easier if they already are in the front of the boss right? Triggers a proc for more damage if cleaved.


Sorry i'm not usually this sarcastic and rude, but some of the post here just have me a bit salty lol. People forget this is an MMO not a MSPO. Teamwork is often overlooked.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

@Whoever thinks BB is all that jazz... It's 10 potency higher than SE. Yep, only 10.

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The reason we got this at lvl. 50, and not 30. it is the Marauder/Warrior end all-be all ability.

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Originally Posted by Gameplayzero

Lets just give BB a frontal positional.

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This is interesting. Although you'd see some people getting cleaved to get that extra damage.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

This is interesting. Although you'd see some people getting cleaved to get that extra damage.

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if there is anything to take away from this forum, I think a good chunk of players would definitely do that. No matter if it was a 5% more potency boost. Most likely blaming the healer if they died.

but off topic, having OT positionals would be very interesting in theory. Idk how well the reception would be depending on how many positional the tanks would have. I'd be all for a few specific moves or "combo enders" designed to be like that in the future but only a few.

Maybe I should make another topic about this lol.

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Originally Posted by Gameplayzero

In this topic:

Lets just give BB a frontal positional. Surely then the people who say that the OT ripping hate (by spamming BB mindlessly) should be MT will be made easier if they already are in the front of the boss right? Triggers a proc for more damage if cleaved. .

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Good idea, bad integration.

Problem with this is, sometimes as a tank, you have to dodge or move fast inside a combo(lower end- dodging a succubus' thunder casts, high end? Dragon gaze) where the fastest route is through the Boss/Mob sprite. I would lose that attack by moving out of the "front" positional. Where now when I'm running under the Minotaur's legs to dodge his Swing attack and still landing a BB, I'd have to eat it to land BB and wish for a proc to reward me for being a bad tank for eating dodge-able damage?

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

Good idea, bad integration.

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well the post you quoted was mainly just a bad joke. People doing mindless BB spam are most likely going to be tanking if they rip aggro and soon will be in front of the boss anyways lol. Was me just being sarcastic since thats what MT warriors do if they have another warrior as OT who actually applies storms eye. Just BB when they can.

Now the second post was me being legitimate. But I forgot that the issue is that you can't hit those positionals if you are MTing in your dps stance. Which really sucks. I mean you can argue thats a way to make it so tanks still do less damage in comparison but eh. I guess the balancing thing would be to make the potency increase from the positionals a lot better so that its still worthwhile for OT in dps stance? But that could come with it fair share of problems as well :/. And I can't just say specifically make the OT have positionals cause thats overly complicated to design imo. Like how Ravana specifically pelts the OT during a phase. In a fantasy world that would be a nice way to do it, but thats not how it is. There would have be a lot of work around to this.

But with some people hating on tank damage as it is, giving them pseudo dps mechanics might just make some of the fanbase even angrier if tank damage doesn't get nerfed that hard next patch.