Proposal: HQ mat-to-HQ mat conversion of 100%

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Originally Posted by Golophei

Just 2 quick obvious questions to this proposal.

1.Why would anyone bother to craft and sell any NQ items for profit if HQ materials guaranteed 100% HQ items?(I guess only for people who whored the rank up andover stock)

2. Wouldn't It completely destroy the NQ market?

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Hmmm, maybe the title of the thread is misleading because the poster of this thread mentioned to improve the HQ rate from 1% to 10%. (example : from HQ3 raw mats (iron ore+3) to Iron ingot+3)
Not really a 100% thing.

As for the NQ market, my opinion is that since many are spam crafting to rank up. As long as there's material, they will go for it, since there wont be sufficient supply of HQ mats to rank up and hope for HQ finish products anyway.
As such, it's inevitable that there's oversupply of NQs. I'm ok with it since my mentality towards crafting to cap is "Get prepared to lose tons of gils".

Which means to say that if I can managed to sell those NQs without a loss, that's good. If it's flooded in the market, I will just have NPC them.

As for fusing of NQs, getting chance to HQs, I felt that there isn't really a need.
"Since I'm the one who wanted to rank up by spamming NQs, I'll just have to NPC them if the market is flooded"
That's my mentality. (Just a penny of my thought, no offense to anyone)

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Originally Posted by Golophei

2. Wouldn't It completely destroy the NQ market?

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NQs would still be good for grinding, I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Are you considering the possibility that a lot of people don't care about their exchanges being monetarily equivalent? That maybe some people want to give stuff away to their friends because they are...friends?

I give away shards and mats to my friends all the time. Even in the early days when shards were worth a lot more than they are now. I could have over 50 million gil now if I had just kept everything to myself, but I don't care. I'm not the only one who feels this way.

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No, I'm not because while you can raise your heart ring in the air and scream that it's so on the internet, I know that you don't have miners going out to gather for YOU, and as such there's not enough materials to go around a shell like you claim. Two town crafters leeching off the entire gathering population of the shell pretty much taps it out of any stray resources.

Tell me how many shards you've given away when you spend 3 hours doing nothing but farming shards, then we'll talk about the power of friendship and love. I know you'd like to strawman me into this harsh, cruel, friendless person because it makes your story sound good, but I do the same thing you do. I just don't lie about how well it works for personal reasons. Sloppy seconds, which is really all you should be asking of FRIENDS in this game that they got incidentally and not for their primary use, will not fuel a crafter to anything.

But hey. You keep telling yourself that the person who you've tricked into giving you gold sand and ore is your FRIEND if we're strawmanning here. Or rather, keep telling them that.

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Originally Posted by urhryu

"Since I'm the one who wanted to rank up by spamming NQs, I'll just have to NPC them if the market is flooded"
That's my mentality. (Just a penny of my thought, no offense to anyone)

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And the only one that will work. NQ crab bows are for NPCs. Honestly the system shouldn't even encourage them to behave the way they do and just spam glut until they get lucky, which is why I say change it. These crafters want guaranteed profit and fame from a mountain of common crap they create.

Subsidizing NQ trash products is as stupid an idea as subsidizing car emissions.

Now, if you want to talk about giving crafters a way to subrefine materials into HQ from NQ, that might work. For instance, a R26 smith can smelt iron, but a R36 smith can turn NQ ore into HQ ore. Then again, I doubt the town crafters will like that idea. They're hypocritical and only want the ability to turn THEIR trash into gold. They don't want NQ and +1 ores to be worth anything, that's what they use to spam-to-HQ.

I know I said on the first page that I'm fine with the system as it is but reading more posts I think it does need changing for HQ mats/parts. It should not be easier to go get a Brimstone +3, Iron Plate +3 or whatever else +3 from a mob than it is to make one by crafting with +3 mats. Using +3 mats shouldn't guarantee you a +3 mat but it should be easier. Finished items don't need changing.

I think a good step might be to allow touch up on mats, even if nerfed a bit compared to finished item touch up. You're almost guaranteed some form of HQ when using +3 mats when you can touch up a lot. I HQ2/3 Hedgemole Needles for fun with a +3 mat simply because it's a low rank synth and I can do at least 10 touch ups. If I could do that to brass/silver/iron I'd get an HQ ingot a lot easier with HQ nuggets from HQ ores.

I don't see the huge importance of gathering with the rank cap at 50 however. Doblyns destroyed the market for copper/zinc/silver/tin ores, especially +3s. Even as a rank 40 miner the rate I get HQ3 silver is a lot lower than farming those off doblyns. Likewise it's easier for me to get +3 Limonite off ants than off mining. The same could probably be said farming logs off mushroom mobs vs botany.

Where DoL is going to shine is when the rank cap increases. When we're having use for +3 gold, mythril, darksteel ores and tier 3 gems, ebony, teak and other high rank logs. This shit won't be cheap to purchase. At 40 I rarely see HQ gold and mythril, I don't know how rare it is at 50. I plan to have both MIN and BTN at 50 before the rank cap goes up however. Neither are/were a requirement to get GLD and CRP to 50. You can get gold sand at 29 and walnut logs at 15. I made a fortune selling HQ gem rings made from HQ nuggets made from NQ gold sand/ore before the market crashed and more people realised the e-peen factor isn't high enough to justify one more DEF.

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I buy all the HQ ores on the market whenever I'm in there looking for tin ores, and there are hardly any ever on sale.

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You BUY tin ores? Jesus, I should stop NPCing even the +2/3 ones I get. I thought that ore was useless/worthless, and it is to me, but people not realising certain shit is useful might be why you don't see much of it in the wards. It pains me when I see people synthing HQ ores with main hand getting 16/20 nuggets and they do it because they don't realise it has more value sold to crafters who will have more luck HQing it than getting a few more nuggets to make brass/silver rings with. But when an HQ ore/log only sells for 200-1k more gil than an NQ I can see why it happens. I was skilling up on HQ yew logs because of that.

Ugh, don't get me started on doblyns. They destroyed any influence miners could have hoped for as economic leverage. Now diremites are dropping +3 nuggets like they have Bessemer vats in their rear ends. You don't see mobs dropping easy grinding materials for any other crafts, through 50 battler levels at that. You have all these mobs that drop +3 versions of things I get headaches just thinking about wasting materials to make. And the battlers get PAID in shards and SP for doing it. The ease at which iron is hauled off by lowbie miners and the glut of silver on the market from battlecrafters drove all 3 smithing jobs into the ground extraordinarily fast. Battlecrafters control our steel production. They control the +3 ring and chain market, +3 ingot market, the high-end HQ BS nuggets, the the silver market now. It's ridiculous.

But yeah Tin ore. Who would have thought that it is your only shot at unlocking the +2 and 3 versions of the final Blacksmith hammer.

Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if some lowbie mite pooped tin nuggets +3.

The worst part is the higher mites that no one kills drop mythril nugget +3s, so once the cap raises and more shit is made from mythril expect that to make any HQ mythril ores you're saving worthless. I often wonder what fallen captains and such can drop. There's a lot of high rank mobs like that which will come into play with any cap raises. Knowing SE they'll go add some rank 60-70 doblyns that can drop gold ore too.

SE need to alter the loot pools of mobs that drop crafted items, ores and logs and take away the +3 versions. The only +3 items a mob should drop is something you can't get by crafting or gathering it.

Given this a lot of thought on the break, and this still stands. The turning of nq into hq has to stop just as much as the degradation of hq to nq for no good reason. There needs to be a +3 material market, now. The only way that will happen is to restrict hq materials. Remove all hq mats from mobs that cross over to gathering nodes. Tighten up the frequency that lowbies get +3s. And to empower materials, not crafters.

Turn hq chance into a yes or no question. Do you have hq mats? If no, nq. If yes, your chance of hq will be determined by your merits as a crafter.

The excess comes from too many crafters marrying up too common a material for too many low chances of hq.

You know you can synth gold nuggets now right? >.>

I have 12 of em sitting in retainer right now.

I still don't understand this proposal, HQ materials are pretty much there for low level crafters to have a easier time to craft a item that is way above their rank (any bonus to a HQ rate should be very little as it seems to be), at least that is how I am using it. HQ rates are already way easier than FFXI, rank cap in FFXIV is 50 and nobody is above rank 60 where HQ low level crafts was consistent in a craft and we are having HQ items for nearly any rank. I was never a crafter above 60 in FFXI but I understood the crafters that have reach 100 craft deserves the bonus of HQ. And I was paying extra for their devotions in the time they spend.

Crafting is already super easy in this game just more time consuming from having to spend 2 to 5 minutes in 1 craft (I never use HastyHand on crafts above my rank don't want to lose the materials).

50 is the cap right now, hence why no one is 60.

Assuming you didn't know that.

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Originally Posted by Scarface

50 is the cap right now, hence why no one is 60.

Assuming you didn't know that.

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That is my whole point there, 60 was pretty much the level when you were able to HQ low levels items consistently. I understand this is FFXIV and not FFXI but rank 50 is still a really low rank yet we have HQ of every rank. I think the HQ rate are really high already seeing +1 in alot of places with just a rank 50 crafter.

Well, the foundation of the game is built at the moment for 50 to = 100 (ffxi).

As far as seeing a lot of HQs...I've made about 4-5 +3 Weapons / Tools. About 20-25 +2's, and roughly 50-60 +1's, so yup I'd hope they would be fairly common.

I think I speak for everyone when I say if they made 100 the cap, none of us would be maxed yet(6 months into the game), lol

Rank 49 to 50 is 100k SP... Just to give you a visual of what a grind to 100 would be like.

100k ain't that bad if they add higher craft 10 ranks above 49. Sometimes I can get a 600-800SP from a craft 10 ranks above mine if I am successful. But I am not near rank 50 so I will leave this topic til then so sorry for the intrusion

I dont craft much outside of alc from fishing. But this thread is rousing my interest in crafting. Some great suggests have been mentioned:
-repeat normal syn (similar to the repeat function from leves)
-once you select Synth have the Recipes from previous attempts highlighted as oppose to having the Guildleve Request highlighted.
-speed up the animation for crafting or...
i. Have the crafting abilities be more effective
- (speculation) Have the HQ system be a little more simplified
- DO NOT GUARANTEE HQ for a synthesis!!!!! (it never was so in xi. if I'm correct the closest you could get to HQ in xi %50)
One of the biggest issues among crafters are the balance of fun interactive crafting & fast-efficient crafting. I suggest that Hasty Hand be reconstructed (SP adjusted too) to be more successful with NO POSSIBILITY of HQ. This will give the average crafter a fairly reliable grind while still respecting the more-dedicated crafter's efforts [with better SP and chance of HQ].:rolleyes:

However having repeated/added suggestions to improve the crafting system, it is impossible to accurately assess the degree of changes needed until we have some viable data. We need know exactly where we are in terms of crafting-time data, HQ-possiblity data, effectiveness-of-crafting-abilities data, etc... to gauge where we want to go. While all the while considering that this is MMO (time sink)-they have to keep you p(l)aying to succeed.:o

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Originally Posted by Scarface

As far as seeing a lot of HQs...I've made about 4-5 +3 Weapons / Tools. About 20-25 +2's, and roughly 50-60 +1's, so yup I'd hope they would be fairly common.

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You cherry pick the easiest ones to make and repeat them. I'm not interested in flipping steel chasers, Jade Crooks and Engraved Bhuj's for gil even though they're very nice things.

What the quality of the steel chaser hammer head was that you lump in with the +3 nails and grip for steel chaser hammers is the more relevant question. Probably NQ or +1. If you have two steel chaser hammer head equivalents in your synth, it's over. It becomes ten times harder to +2 and 3 than any of the things you pad your numbers with, and by harder I mean you have to grind mats 10 times longer and throw more NQ crap away to build the final product. Is there a logical reason why some endgame synths are 10-100 times easier to HQ3 than others? Not at all. People will say ohhh it's because a thermal alembic can do this and that, that alchemists are such and such. Really there's no reason. That's where the ingot chip balance fell, and it fell well short.

It's just a balance issue that needs correcting. I'm not saying make an aeolian as easy to +3 as a Jade crook. I'm saying don't make a freaking thermal alembic as hard to make as an Aeolian+3.

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Originally Posted by VagabondPriest

I still don't understand this proposal, HQ materials are pretty much there for low level crafters to have a easier time to craft a item that is way above their rank (any bonus to a HQ rate should be very little as it seems to be), at least that is how I am using it.

Crafting is already super easy in this game just more time consuming from having to spend 2 to 5 minutes in 1 craft (I never use HastyHand on crafts above my rank don't want to lose the materials).

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If quality is such a poor determinant of HQ rate that you've taken to using HQ mats to make synths easier to NQ as opposed as making harder synths easier to HQ, that's further proof that the system needs changed. The system's so broken that you calculated that the extra SP you get off burning +3 materials is worth more than the odds that they'll give you something of better value.

XIV traded a lot of suppression tactics in favor of time. Parties won't leave you in town if you're a lolancer now, but tnl:sp/hour ratios are much higher than in XI. You dont' have to spend 100 million gil a level, but you have to level for a hundred hours instead. Those are sortof good things, but they have their obvious drawbacks. Turns everything from a goal-oriented gameplay to a grindfest.

Then to throw another grindfest of mat spamming onto the grindfest of crafting is cheap gameplay. Korean or F2P product-caliber gameplay.

People don't comprehend the ridiculous difficulty spread between equivalent gear synths. Or if they do, they figure they can just profit off that difference all the more. Not gonna happen. A lot of people tell themselves, "I'm gonna be the best there ever was, known throughout the server for my +3 makin ability." Not going to happen. The wall is too high, you cannot break free.

You act as if because of the name of the item makes it a difficult synth? As far as me hand picking synths, I craft everything I can make gil on, or use. Bannert Lance is 45 GSM, Jade Crook is 45 Carp, with a 40+ sub... Not sure if you were bashing me because GSM/Carp doesn't have rank 50 finished item synths, or because I've made +3's of stuff you haven't?

I agree Ingots are a pain to +3 by the way. As much as engraved bhuj is like "lol rank 30something" I still need to make a Brass Ingot HQ :p

Jade crooks aren't easy to HQ, the mats however are easier than anything mentioned above. Making them easier I guess.

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Originally Posted by Scarface

You act as if because of the name of the item makes it a difficult synth? As far as me hand picking synths, I craft everything I can make gil on, or use. Bannert Lance is 45 GSM, Jade Crook is 45 Carp, with a 40+ sub... Not sure if you were bashing me because GSM/Carp doesn't have rank 50 finished item synths, or because I've made +3's of stuff you haven't?

I agree Ingots are a pain to +3 by the way. As much as engraved bhuj is like "lol rank 30something" I still need to make a Brass Ingot HQ :p

Jade crooks aren't easy to HQ, the mats however are easier than anything mentioned above. Making them easier I guess.

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No, the materials that make the item make it a difficult synth, not the name. They completely dominate it.

I'm not bashing you based on either of those things. I'm just not impressed with the kinds of +3s you count towards the +3 rates being fine the way they are, because they're the easiest of the easy. As far as not making things you have, I haven't dunked on a 5th grader either. There are many things that I can do that I haven't done because I have no interest in doing them. We are not interested in the same things. I want to make +3 steel ingots because Zander needs them to try to make Puff a thermal alembic and I'm the only one with the power to do it. No gil. No fame. No fortune. They want it, so I want it.

Steel mortar is three Steel Ingots. Steel ingots are level 32 synths. Brass ingots are level two. Two. Your equivalent would be electrum ingots, but they're only level 21. Steel nuggets are more expensive than electrum. Think about the prospect of trying to +2 and 3 electrum ingots because you had to have them for a shot at a +2 or +3. Think of all the money you'd lose when you're stuck NPC'ing the NQ final products, selling the +1s for piddlydinks...and never getting enough +2 and 3 electrum ingots for a +3 final synth. That 200 million gil would go up like a fart in the wind. It would ruin you.

This is the reality of too many of the R40-50 synths. A steel mortar+3 costs over 200 million gil to make and over a hundred hours of farming and synthing steel. You think what you do is hard, but it's not hard compared to the sheer stupidity of your peers' synths.

So what to to? Change the synth requirements? How? You can't inherently change that alembics take plates. Synths will always take plates, ingots, chains. Double and triple-synth mats will always exist. So you have to change the rates at which these double and triple synths HQ. This ain't a mahogany branch+3. This ain't acidic secretion. This ain't BRASS ingot.

I'm not trying to make it easier on you and your competition. I'm trying to make synths with a common flaw more reasonable. Your synths only have a small taste of that common flaw.

When I asked if you had any brass ingot+3's it was for Aeolian synths. We're interested in different things. There might be what...two aeolian +1s on the server. I made one of them.

Steel Mortar+3? Really? For what? To HQ some dumb glue that you can make using an NQ tool. Seriously, Alch tools are probably the most useless crafting tools, probably because its the most useless craft.

You being a crafter, you should know that synthing a mat that's rank 20 something is the same as synthing a rank 30 something, the difficulty is zero. However, the mats may be harder, they may be more expensive...thats no reason to change the HQ system. My suggestion would be, make something that's actually useful, and easier..... Like anything, but Alch tools..Lawl.

Moving on..Hoorah on the Aeolian, but again why not just invest the time into Longswords+2/3? Probably more likely than Aeolian, but hey who am I. I'm just the guy who makes top tier end game weapons for 3 different classes, but I just pad my numbers by pumping out HQs for like half your LS. That's comical.

Jade Crook - Best Weapon
Engraved Bhuj - HQs are easier and more likely, hence better than Barbarians
Bannrett Lance - Same comment as above.

Don't sit here and make it seem like I just spam Bronze Needles then post "Oh I made this X times". HQ mats or not they're still high level synths, and aren't a cake walk in mats either.

But you do sit there and spam bronze needles compared to these synths. Doesn't really matter how useful you think they are. You're a good place to put our excess gil that we have no use for, so of course the shell is going to trade their incidental crap for things you spent quite a bit of time making. Hell I'll probably rip the Jade Crook off your bazaar when I get back on, because I'm sure as hell not taking the time to gather up materials if you'll do it for me.

I don't make BS and GS weapons because they're a waste of my time. Not because I can't. For weapons, I have you who is free and willing to take gil for that. I get gil from trash +1's I make when trying to +2 and 3 rarer things for the shell. Suppose I have you in part to thank for that, 'cause I don't have to synth the basic weapons.

Keep the thanks coming. I love the "you're synthing bronze needles compared to this" lol. Anyways, seems like the topic has gone off course..It's been fun though.

The concept goes over your head. To review your position, the system is fine the way it is because you're good at +2 and 3'ing the easiest things, and the synth types that are too difficult for you, for which you've made 0 +2 or 3's don't need changed because they don't matter to you.

Moving on.

Don't forget what LS made the +2 Barb Axe for you guys. Just saying...mannnn

Wait, have you +2'd anything? Ever? Lawl, I'm sure you haven't +3'd anything but nuggets. You jelly?

Yeah, don't forget whose synth went unstable and you lost half its quality.
Better lucky than good I guess.

Fact remains that the +2 was because of us, in spite of your poor performance. Thanks for bragging about how good we are though. That +2 is a feather in our cap. Shame it wasn't a +3.

Right, because those mats are impossibly hard to farm. Especially when you have 100 LS members, its just unrealistic to ask for +2 mats...just insane I tell ya.

edit: Got any +3 nuggets?

Lol look at you still trying to take the credit for 300 quality's worth of our materials when you blew 150 of it. No matter. I'll get leatherworking up and do it right myself the next time. Just can't find good help these days I swear.

Fine by me, I couldn't care less.

ANYWAY gadflies aside.

Double and triple synth mats. When you stack two and three of them into synths, it makes them exponentially more difficult to HQ to the point where they need adjustment towards the level of much easier synths that can be HQ'd with one shot mats or farmed by any DoW or DoM.

This idea is still just as poorly thought out as it was last week.

The idea is more than sound. There are wide difficulty differences between HQ materials of equal levels. It's simple imbalance. Increasing the HQ retention between parts resolves the discrepancies. Everything would trend toward the level of your precious crab bows or jade crooks.

Maybe you don't like the idea because it'd open up economies that are more important than yours are. But hey, it'd give you a thermal alembic and steel mortar +2. We'd only charge 10 million instead of 110 million. Why are you whining?

After all this time, we still have personally-fabled crafters up in here who *actually* think they can beat this system and make names for themselves in it. Gonna take advantage of that cruel weedout process and be the best there ever was!

Or really, the only one left.

1 million gil for anything that benefits Alch is a waste of time.

3 million gil for 1 magic accuracy proves both the buyer and seller fools. Hypocrite?

This message is hidden because Scarface is on your ignore list.
This message is hidden because Peregrine is on your ignore list.

Sorry, I'm too busy being awesome to hear the whole lot of nothing you two jokers are yammering on with.

Awwe but you and him are cut from the same mold. I thought you two would be best buddies.

Lol, this dude has a personal vendetta for me or something. Have you been stalking me for a while and now have enough info to attempt these foolish comments?

3 million gil for something that takes hours and hours of gathering, and tons of luck. You, of all people should know that items are priced based upon their rarity and usefulness.

Scarface, come on now. You're not exactly the least predictable kind of crafter in the world. I'm not stalking you. Your enterprises are just clear, limited, and expected. You're not the only one who has thought of all these things. You certainly aren't the only one who can do these things. Again, all I have to do to produce black pearl ring+2's three times faster than you can produce +1s is to spend a little time mining a location that I could destroy at my level and you're stuck I dunno...asking for oysters or getting them off mob drops. Bloodshore.

If there comes a time where gil has a function in this society, rest assured that I will be coming straight for ya. Until then, you stick to making me and the shell shinies we like, and we'll keep pushing gil we don't want onto you. It's a pretty good relationship. No sense ruining it.

But the materials system needs changed. You want to cry me a river about how tough black pearls are, but the synths I set my sights on have two or three black pearls in them. As such, your +3 silver nuggets get watered down quite a bit, locking +2 and 3 access.

Then do it? Simple words.

Servers are back up. Its your time to shine, pimp...lawl.

SO... I, as a 45 blacksmith, did 3 crafts of BaghNakh talons (r21 recipie)... used +1 iron nuggets... got to 300+ qual all 3 times... nothing. Then i say screw this, just did standard synths with normal nuggets... got HQ 1 at 57 quality (2 pairs).

...WTF?!