Recover HP/MP while standing still, out of battle, and enmity zeroed

I totally agree with you Neptune and surprisingly on most of your arguments.

Recovering HP/MP while staying still is put there to slow players grinding rate (even further) and thus spending more time on the game (not needed, boring and un-utilized time).

I don't care that this is needed because they implemented this and that! Who said that it was needed? Why add "new" features if it will slow down the game?

I really think that since 1.18 the game is being turned slowly to FFXI (long recasts, low HP/MP regeneration,....etc) which is a BAD thing.

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Originally Posted by Sontawila

I totally agree with you Neptune and surprisingly on most of your arguments.

Recovering HP/MP while staying still is put there to slow players grinding rate (even further) and thus spending more time on the game (not needed, boring and un-utilized time).

I don't care that this is needed because they implemented this and that! Who said that it was needed? Why add "new" features if it will slow down the game?

I really think that since 1.18 the game is being turned slowly to FFXI (long recasts, low HP/MP regeneration,....etc) which is a BAD thing.

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Thanks. Preach.

It's been too easy to level thus far. People are out-leveling the content. It needs to be slowed down.

I'm quite certain that "Refresh" will eventually show up anyway so I'm not too worried but I agree that just standing around to regen is stupid so I support a /rest animation.

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Originally Posted by Davorok

It's been too easy to level thus far. People are out-leveling the content. It needs to be slowed down.

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This is obviously off-topic, but when is enough? Should we just now be hitting rank 50 one year after release? There is like 1% new content in this game after 1 year compared with the entire game. I don't think it's reasonable to assess the leveling curve compared to the content since most of the planned content has been absent or postponed.

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Originally Posted by Davorok

It's been too easy to level thus far. People are out-leveling the content. It needs to be slowed down.

I'm quite certain that "Refresh" will eventually show up anyway so I'm not too worried but I agree that just standing around to regen is stupid so I support a /rest animation.

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imo sitting is just as bad if not worse than standing, the idea of having to stop to regen mp/hp doesnt make fights more difficult, it just makes the time between fights longer. i dont want any resting like gameplay mechanics if it was up to me. The only time i want to see a rest animation or something like that is for weakness

This is worse than FFXI. No MP regen with enmity means no resting for MP during a party battle, particularly a boss fight. That means you only have Tranquility/Exaltation and Siphon MP (and possibly Featherfoot) to get more MP during a battle. With healing mp costs so high, that's not going to be enough for boss fights. At least in FFXI, mages could rest while DD and tank fought, if they were low on MP.

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With healing mp costs so high, that's not going to be enough for boss fights.

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Yikes. We're all going to die.

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Originally Posted by Davorok

It's been too easy to level thus far. People are out-leveling the content. It needs to be slowed down.

I'm quite certain that "Refresh" will eventually show up anyway so I'm not too worried but I agree that just standing around to regen is stupid so I support a /rest animation.

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/rest animation? problem solved!!!

Do you understand what we are talking about? Standing or sitting, it's STILL a waste of time. SP is easy? maybe. But is it fun? not by a far shot.

If they want to slow SP down and make it fun then I might be for it, but prolonging game time with longer grind for craft materials, longer time to regen HP/MP, longer time to recast abilities, longer time to participate in leves/quests.....etc. is poor game design that I'm totally against!

Hm
How many time would you need to regenerate your mp full in 1.19?

I don't think it would be the same time like in 1.18.

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Originally Posted by Rinsui

Yikes. We're all going to die.

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while there will be parties that kill boss over and over.......

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Originally Posted by Ylferyf

This is worse than FFXI. No MP regen with enmity means no resting for MP during a party battle, particularly a boss fight. That means you only have Tranquility/Exaltation and Siphon MP (and possibly Featherfoot) to get more MP during a battle. With healing mp costs so high, that's not going to be enough for boss fights. At least in FFXI, mages could rest while DD and tank fought, if they were low on MP.

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I'm not convinced it's as bad as that. "Incurring" (as in "incurring enmity") means to bring down upon yourself. It's vague enough that it not might not be as bad as you believe it to be. It could mean you can't recover mp if you're on any enemy's hate list, but it could also mean you only can't recover mp if you're doing things to increase enmity (as in, if you stop curing for a sec, you can recover mp right away). It could also mean you'll recover mp as long as the enemy isn't targeting you which would be even less prohibitive.

Gyah. Why is this happening? Again? I don't know how this is going to help anyone slow down on their grinding (That's a retarded argument anyhow, we just got chains back, if anything that's making skilling up a lot easier) or make battles more 'interesting' and 'dynamic'. Besides, in the boss battles we have now standing still in one place isn't really an option what with the ghosts in both DH fights, or the running around you have to do to beat the timers. More MP management isn't really...well, if that's what the fight is I expect all others to carry their own potions and learn how to use their skills more efficiently so I don't have to heal you for being such a dumbass. Cures have a cool down, and require quite a bit of MP as it is. Perhaps if tanks and DD were better equipped to take a bit of AoE damage and block it we wouldn't be using upwards of 400 mp in seconds.
So to that I say, bring your own potions and don't rely on healers to heal everyone. :3 That's MP management as well.

Ethers only give you around 50 mp (Cure 2 requires 75 mp) and a medicated debuff anyway.

You shouldn't have to depend on potions and ethers to get you through a battle. I'm not saying they should remove them from the game, but it sounds like you're suggesting we lean on them like a crutch and suck it up.

Anyhoo, mage strike or not I'm def not going to waste my breath trying to argue for progress' sake because no one seems to posses the skill necessary to form a counter arguement beyond "You're stupid and lazy" and seem to just want to raise a bit of hell. > w> That's nice.

All I really want is for them to explain the changes in depth.

Also as a second though, I hope the changes to AM have made them more badass, otherwise the recast and shared timers mean absolutely nothing to me.

We could just wait and see how the changes are once the patch hits tomorrow. Not like they can change it now and no point speculating on how it works or decide whether its seriously that bad till we try it. If it ruins the game it will probably be adjusted in 1.19a like how the terrible SP from guildleves were changed in 1.18a.

I'm willing to bet its fine though, since they have been testing the new content with it for quite a while.

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Originally Posted by Oscillate_Wildly

Also as a second though, I hope the changes to AM have made them more badass, otherwise the recast and shared timers mean absolutely nothing to me.

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Nice to see you again Oscillate_wildly, although it is disturbing as ever to see your sig. *scrolls down to hide sig*

*comes back*

I do wonder if they have changed AM.. before you could get off a near-1k shot if you popped Profundity II and Blood Rite right before it ticked off.

I'm back! :U Sort of, still busy with other hobbies but as usual I'm popping back to take care of the new content. And yeah idk I could always get around 800-900 otherwise if I used the right one on the right mob or NM. But I haven't tried it on a boss battle. Perhaps we'll want to by using the right combo then eh?

I was thinking about changing it, I've added about 5 new voldemort gifs to my gif folder. Just can't decide which one to use now.

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Originally Posted by Oscillate_Wildly

I was thinking about changing it, I've added about 5 new voldemort gifs to my gif folder. Just can't decide which one to use now.

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Anything. ..Anything.

lol. good to have you back.

The standing still to recover hp/mp feels like a complete step back , sure have not seen the patch update yet but this is something i hope you can reconsider.

Regen during big boss fights is the only thing that makes them reasonably possible. If I couldn't put my weapon away and regen my MP because 'omg the boss has me on green or yellow enmity!', then I wont be able to be much of a help during a fight. I'd say I'd just carry ethers, but the BEST one in the whole game only offers a lowsy 150mp. So yeah... as a CNJ, this was my biggest disappointment in the 1.19 patch.

We have to keep in mind they are changing stats big time - just look at the Ifrit video hp/mp numbers. And we don't know the rate at which we will regen while standing still - it may be much quicker than we imagine. Aaaaand, we don't know how they will be tweaking spells/skills/abilities/traits/etc in the upcoming patches to accommodate this as well.

As for long battles, this is a good move - rather than disengaging we will be forced to manage the new mp system, which will undoubtedly introduce combat mp regen mechanics such as Refresh and Bard buffs alongside the new improved stats and skills.

In short, there is hope yet.

What i dont understand how this system isn't any different than now....... Before 1.19 you run for a bit you get like 30 mp from running to next spot if that,then in boss fights you have constantly put away your wep to get mp back,and STAND STILL. Now all you have to do is cast in passive mode and STAY STILL to get mp back how is that an step back. Unless you guys are running in circles during boss fights i don't see how this change is effecting you.....

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Just to clarify, your point is that the immediate reaction to MP cost changes on cures was to bring in more healers, who took up what should have been DPS slots. This was done under because it required 4-5 healers at the time to keep the tank alive.

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Originally Posted by Neptune

That's exactly right! Also that is a mere sub point in the larger discussion about the merits of objecting to patch notes or announcements. My goal was to foster some discussion about this issue, and there has been a lot of likes on the OP, which is good. Maybe we will at least see some official comment on the reasoning behind changing the regeneration to a stand still activity.

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If that's your exact (sub) point, then I have to say that you're wrong. I provided video evidence of people three days after the patch defeating the Ogre with 3 healers all playing sub-optimally.

Now, let's go back to your chain:

DEV TEAM => GAME DESIGN => COMMUNITY => PLAYERS

Now, the Dev Team decided to make healing harder. That much was obviously accomplished, no question. I've given video evidence that the game was left balanced such that 2-3 healers would be enough, assuming they showed a modicum of skill. And remember that they were talking about encouraging skillful play at the time, which I think we can both agree doesn't mean just stacking healers.

Now, then, if the content was balanced for 2-3 healers, where did the idea come from to bring twice that? Any way you look at it, the problem wasn't at the design level, it was at the community level.

So we're going to keep whining about this instead of waiting for the patch to see how it really is?

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Originally Posted by PrettyPrincess

So we're going to keep whining about this instead of waiting for the patch to see how it really is?

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of course PP, I thought we have already been indoctrinated in this since the forums were established. pre-whining before trying it!

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Originally Posted by Xmbei

of course PP, I thought we have already been indoctrinated in this since the forums were established. pre-whining before trying it!

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Oh right. HOW COULD I FORGET!? D:

I know there are a lot of changes that happened last patch. I am also a mage and felt the system was tuff on mages. Then i just adapted and learned to change my style. I mean I never used spirit-bind b4 last patch and now i use it. I leveled other jobs to balance out my mage. I have a healer in my LS that can main cure the tank on orgre and batraal fight solo. It leaves me the option to nuke alot more. We even 7 manned the whole thing after a player dc'ed. Adapt to the situation guys, i have seen its success when done correctly. There are more changes comming. Try them out first.... see what can be done differently..... ask for advice.... if all else fails, make a post complaining about what u dont like and why its not working for you.

Remember when there was no MP regen? Remember when we were praying to the gods for any kind of regen, we didn't care how. We've sure come a long way, now we can freely bitch about the means of MP regen.

Probably this feature has future plans and featherfoot is one way to make up for the time being. Why don't we just WAIT AND SEE how it goes before we rage eachother to death. It's probably not as bad as you people are making it out to be.... I mean geex one more day peeps...

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Originally Posted by Neptune

Can I just ask was it such a big crime to partially regen while doing another task in this game like travelling, closing the distance to another enemy, or trying to get back some MP during a boss fight while doing nothing but casting cure 2?

Did we have to rewind the clock on all the progress this genre has made since it was nothing but a timesink designed to keep people paying a monthly fee as long as possible?

Is it really necessary for me to stop everything, stand perfectly still, and do nothing for 30 seconds to a minute every 3 or 4 fights while soloing?

Also I'm aware that there is another thread with somebody who thinks it's a great idea to rewind the clock back to 2002 and add an animation to the stated change, but I don't support that topic.

Why should we stand still in this game when we can go play another game that will regen us to full after standing still for 20 seconds every 10 minutes or so?

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This is the cost of being able to cast without drawing your weapons. If they did not put this limitation on players Healers would be able to run around healing and fleeing from any possible damage and never come close to running our of MP. Without this kind of restriction we would be right back to where we were before 1.18 with parties being invincible as long as they has a Mage to Spam Cure.

Or they could have given mages a cosmetic stance for healing without a weapon out that still counted as having a weapon out.

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Originally Posted by Oscillate_Wildly

Or they could have given mages a cosmetic stance for healing without a weapon out that still counted as having a weapon out.

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To do something like this they'd have to add another option to the current passive > active > passive cycle. Without some kind of additional indicator taking up more screen space it would be hard for some to tell if they're in passive or active (no weapon) stance. I think the current fix is fine, it doesn't complicate things as much.

I'm for having HP/MP regen when out of battle, with no emitity, etc while moving, but it should be low, and standing still should be the best option. Even if it didn't start regening until after 10 seconds after a fight.

One thing for sure, MP abilities will be in higher demand. :)

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Originally Posted by Firon

What i dont understand how this system isn't any different than now....... Before 1.19 you run for a bit you get like 30 mp from running to next spot if that,then in boss fights you have constantly put away your wep to get mp back,and STAND STILL. Now all you have to do is cast in passive mode and STAY STILL to get mp back how is that an step back. Unless you guys are running in circles during boss fights i don't see how this change is effecting you.....

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You can't get MP back if you have any kind of enmity, even green enmity is enmity and you'll have that in a party. So you can't regen MP until the battle's over.

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Originally Posted by Ylferyf

You can't get MP back if you have any kind of enmity, even green enmity is enmity and you'll have that in a party. So you can't regen MP until the battle's over.

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Don't say that like you're sure. The term can be interpreted many ways, however it appears none of us have any solid proof as to which interpretation is the correct one.

We'll just have to see after the patch which interpretation ends up being true:

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Originally Posted by AmyRae

I'm not convinced it's as bad as that. "Incurring" (as in "incurring enmity") means to bring down upon yourself. It's vague enough that it not might not be as bad as you believe it to be. It could mean you can't recover mp if you're on any enemy's hate list, but it could also mean you only can't recover mp if you're doing things to increase enmity (as in, if you stop curing for a sec, you can recover mp right away). It could also mean you'll recover mp as long as the enemy isn't targeting you which would be even less prohibitive.

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Originally Posted by Ylferyf

You can't get MP back if you have any kind of enmity, even green enmity is enmity and you'll have that in a party. So you can't regen MP until the battle's over.

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No the post says...

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Players will not automatically recover HP and MP when incurring enmity.
HP and MP will automatically recover only while the player is stationary, regardless of whether or not he/she is engaged in battle. The amount of HP and MP recovered will increase based on the amount of time a player remains stationary.
The recovery amount will reset under the following conditions:
The player is attacked
The player moves or performs an action

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The Bold part clearly states that even if you are in battle you gain mp. That bold line would not make any sense saying you can get mp as long as you don't touch the mob. The system they are implementing is the same way it is now why can you guys understand that.

1.18: If i want to Gain mp i have go into passive and stand still to gain mp back.

1.19 You have to use no actions to gain mp while in passive its simple as that.

What makes both of these systems exactly the same is the fact that pre 1.18 if you use an ability while in passive you loose your mp regen cause you go into active. 1.19 you loose mp regen by using skills, systems are the same just think of using an skill in passive mode in 1.19 will put you in active mode to speak of.

They had to make passive mp gaining this way so you would not gain mp while casting would be OP.

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Originally Posted by Ylferyf

You can't get MP back if you have any kind of enmity, even green enmity is enmity and you'll have that in a party. So you can't regen MP until the battle's over.

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Seems to me, the intention to let you cast cure spells without drawing your weapon is to take out the constant switching between passive and active mode in order to recover mp between cures. However, they didn't want to make mp regeneration more constant than it had been previously (i.e. you didn't recover mp in active mode). So generating enmity halts mp regeneration, but it's no different than going into active mode and casting a cure; you wouldn't be regenerating mp in that scenario either.

Basically, you should be able to regenerate as much mp as you did before the patch, the only difference is you don't have to switch in and out of active mode. I'm quite sure this is the intended effect.

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Originally Posted by Firon

No the post says...

The Bold part clearly states that even if you are in battle you gain mp. That bold line would not make any sense saying you can get mp as long as you don't touch the mob. The system they are implementing is the same way it is now why can you guys understand that.

1.18: If i want to Gain mp i have go into passive and stand still to gain mp back.

1.19 You have to use no actions to gain mp while in passive its simple as that.

What makes both of these systems exactly the same is the fact that pre 1.18 if you use an ability while in passive you loose your mp regen cause you go into active. 1.19 you loose mp regen by using skills, systems are the same just think of using an skill in passive mode in 1.19 will put you in active mode to speak of.

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No need to revert back to this line of discussion. I made a thorough wall-of-text post going into great detail supporting the very same argument you're making. Nevertheless there exist situations that satisfy all of the conditions provided in the patch notes, however illogical or redundant it may be to account for them, that would still result in you only regenerating while your enmity is absolutely zero.

I don't want to repeat or go into details again, so I suggest you go back to around page 7 or 8 and read my discussion with Neptune over the matter.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

No need to revert back to this line of discussion. I made a thorough wall-of-text post going into great detail supporting the very same argument you're making. Nevertheless there exist situations that satisfy all of the conditions provided in the patch notes, however illogical or redundant it may be to account for them, that would still result in you only regenerating while your enmity is absolutely zero.

I don't want to repeat or go into details again, so I suggest you go back to around page 7 or 8 and read my discussion with Neptune over the matter.

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Oh i read it I am just saying some ppl's reading comprehension is a little low in these forums sometimes. They did not change anything about mp regening in a sense but people just can't understand :)

I think the only downfall here is that you will not be recovering MP while you run. Everything else is fine, if not better than what was until now. Running and recovering MP helped on fast Darkhold runs, where everything was timed perfectly.

This will just make MP management even more complicated, which will increase difficulty. Isn't what everyone wanted, harder stuff?

Since i play as melee and as mage, suggestion to all melee now: you will have to heal yourself more often now :P

The reason why they did this was to be able to implement casting spells without drawing your weapon. That would be seriously F'ed up if mages can sit there casting spells under a constant MP Regen xD

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

lolwut? I remember getting called a troll for confirming that DH can be cleared just fine without ARC/CON pts, until I posted pics on the forums proving it. And lol @ 4 mages, it can be cleared with 2, or even only 1 if you have the skill.

Seriously man, shit's gonna get nerfed and buffed left and right as the patches keep rolling in. If you're any good at playing casting classes I'm sure you'll adapt just fine. And besides, Featherfoot is the answer to your problems.



Lol, mage strike :D

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How much mp does feather foot regain a second?