being new and @ level 50 is killing my interest

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Originally Posted by DacienSanderon

But new players can't? You not seeing the double standard and thinking you somehow deserve more than a new player is part of why you don't comprehend what this thread is about.

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What content is there for new players to enjoy? Pretty much everything is tied to the 3.0 MSQ, from flight to dungeons and raids, job quests (at least for AST) draw upon Ishgardian lore and locales, and if you're looking to grind to level up, Northern Thanalan is the place to be, not Ishgard. They'd just be wasting their time standing in Ishgard instead of completing the 2.0 MSQ, which they would still need even if they could get into Ishgard, because the 3.0 MSQ gates Heavensward's content, exactly like how 2.X dungeons and primals were gated behind the MSQ. It's not a new precedent for this game, in fact it follows the same formula that has been implemented since 2.0.

Being able to press escape and skip the storu nullifies the whole story reason. I have no clue what happened in the 2.0 to 2.5 msq yet here I am in Ishgard having fun with the HW content.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

There are so much gated content in XI, what are you talking about...? Sea, Aht Urgan, any of the basic 75 content outside of maybe Dynamis and HNMs, ZNMs, Salvage, Odin. You guys seriously remember FFXI in a totally different way than I do.

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Maybe we had different experiences. :)

Yes, there was all that gated content, but I always had friends to do it with. Linkshells were really helpful back then, too. I never had a problem finding a static for CoP, Sea, etc. I never felt in a rush to complete them because I knew we would eventually. Maybe also because it was super hard back then so it's not like the whole server was gonna complete it from the get go. lol Maybe that helped lessen the pressure? That and the static's commitment and passion to beat it. XD

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Originally Posted by Tyla_Esmeraude

Maybe we had different experiences. :)

Yes, there was all that gated content, but I always had friends to do it with. Linkshells were really helpful back then, too. I never had a problem finding a static for CoP, Sea, etc. I never felt in a rush to complete them because I knew we would eventually. Maybe also because it was super hard back then so it's not like the whole server was gonna complete it from the get go. lol Maybe that helped lessen the pressure? That and the static's commitment and passion to beat it. XD

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You can say the same about 14 though. You can under size any of the old content (we 3 manned all the necessary dungeons for High Level Roulette for a fresh 50 in under 2 hours), and considerate Free Companies will help you get current with the newest content. Also, there's no rush to do anything in 14, even if you think there is with weekly resets. I run a casual Free Company, and the majority of them are casuals. They're just now getting to Bismarck Extreme, collecting their 170s, and asking about Alexander. They're having fun too, so just like in XI... play at your own pace.

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Originally Posted by DacienSanderon

People don't play MMO's to run old content. Ever. This isn't a single player game. This is a genre where people like to progress in the latest content along with all the other players and face new challenges that the developers create.

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I certainly agree with your last sentence above, but your first sentence above indicates you draw the exact opposite conclusion from it than I do.

This is a genre where people want to progress, and the more to progress through the better. It's a genre where people want to do so together with others, which can be (and in the case of this game needs to be) done all the way through that progression. And they want to keep facing new challenges, which only happens while progressing and stops once you reach the end. On every point there, the more content there is to progress through the better.

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Originally Posted by DacienSanderon

If progression were all that made it fun no one would play MMOs because you can get that same experience playing any single player game out there.

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Except for the social part about playing through it with friends (or making friends by playing through it with strangers). And for the fact that in time, after a couple expansions a whole host of content patches, MMOs generally grow to be a lot larger than most single player games. So an MMORPG is like a super long single-player RPG that you get to play together with thousands of other players.

But certainly if someone doesn't like the RPG genre in the first place, extending it into a massively multiplayer format isn't likely to change that. The whole RPG genre, spanning both its single and multiplayer sub-genres, is highly focused on progression. You're always trying to advance something, whether that's story, level, gear, or whatever.

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Originally Posted by DacienSanderon

Also, progressing in 3 year old content is not the same as progressing in something just released

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Huh??? Of course it is. Content is content. Progression is progression. The content released a year ago is as good as it was a year ago. It's only "old" content to those who have already done it a zillion times and gotten tired of it, but that doesn't apply to new players. (Now there are certainly some portions of content that either of us might regard as better or worse than other portions of the content, but the timing of when they were released has no bearing on that.)

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Originally Posted by DacienSanderon

But new players can't? You not seeing the double standard and thinking you somehow deserve more than a new player is part of why you don't comprehend what this thread is about.

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So I guess my friend who just started 2.0 the other day and is enjoying making her way through that is just a figment of my imagination, then.

She hasn't even bought HW yet. She's in no rush to get there right away because she knows she will eventually. Right now, she's just playing the game at her own pace and having fun with it.

How exactly is it not sustainable? It's called an expansion for a reason, it's like a sequel. When you've done all you can in one game, something new comes out to provide new content. Crying that you want that content right away without finishing the main stuff first makes no sense. I've said it like 3 times already on here, what exactly do you expect on doing in Ishgard before completing the main story quests?? The whole ARR story Ishgard has their gates closed off with no access allowed, so how would that make sense to let you just go wandering in now? What do you expect to find there other than enemies that will wipe you in 2 hits since they are significantly higher level that you are? If you just want to see what it looks like then watch a video on YouTube or something. An expansion is to add new and more content to keep players happy. If you're a new player then sorry but there's no way you're bored or out of content with ARR already.

Everyone else knew HW was coming out for months and completed all the quests to be ready for it. So whining about it being unfair that you now have to do the same is basically just too bad. If you're actually a new player, as in you started in the past few weeks after HW came out, then I'm sorry but there's absolutely no reason or need for you to do anything in the expansion. Unless you are playing hours every day, it takes months to fully learn the game and how it all works. If anyone should be annoyed it's the existing players. The ones like myself that have run WoD and other dungeons a million times collecting tomes and hoping for drops on our gear to get better equipment, only to have one of the first few quests in Heavensward give us gear that's significantly better. At least you get to actually skip a ton of stuff and won't be running raids over and over and over and will just be moving on. I'm not bitter about that, it's just reality. Plus I've bought a lot of MNK level 50 gear in Ishgard and given it to my level 50 friend who still has a ton of quests to do for the main story before getting to Ishgard. So you can buy or get people to buy gear and so on for you which is ilvl 115 helping you get through the trials.

You have tons of classes to pick from, sorry if you want MCH or DRK from day one, but you have to work for it. Don't act like you only get 2 classes to choose from and have to settle for one, there's tons of DPS classes to keep you busy up until HW.

Be patient my friend. There's no race to the end. Enjoy the story and read the plot, and with one step at a time you'll make it to Ishgard.

Why do I have to play the game to unlock stuff?

WHY!?!?

I'll never get the hurry for someone to rush to the end of everything so they can talk about how bored they are of the endgame raid - especially in XIV where there isn't exactly a ton of new extreme lvl 60 content all the time.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

XIV is an RPG as much as it is an MMO. Just deal with it.

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There isnt much rpg in XIV. I do agree with bringing this argument up every now and then tho, as it reminds me I need to replay some real rpgs again sometimes. (neverwinter, DA, Mass effect, Kotor, Spellforce, etc)

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Originally Posted by 416to305

Lol too funny, sorry man life is unfair, can't have everything handed to you. Put it this way, I'm 30 and want to learn violin. I try and it's hard as shit, but my neighbour who is 30 plays like a total pro because he's been playing since he was 5 years old. Does that mean that I should get some kind of magical bonus because he has 25 years on me and I'm new?

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Well if you were to enlist your neighbours aid, im sure you would learn much faster. One might argue that qualifies as some kind of magical bonus. Why, if you were (are) at very good terms with your neighbour, that might even happen naturally.

Unfortunately in mmos these days we are not often on good (or any) terms with our neightbours.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Well if you were to enlist your neighbours aid, im sure you would learn much faster. One might argue that qualifies as some kind of magical bonus. Why, if you were (are) at very good terms with your neighbour, that might even happen naturally..

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But that's exactly what I said. My friend who is still at 50 I help out by buying him the MNK gear in Ishgard which is ilvl 115 and better than the gear you get with tomes of poetics. Each item is like 15,000-25,000 gil so super cheap. So anyone who is in a FC can easily ask anyone to do the same since the items are tradable. That way you can blow through any of the primals or dungeons required to complete the MSQs in ARR without having to run raids and dungeons over and over to collect gear trying to up your ilvl a bit. I remember when getting Ifrit's weapon was exciting, now it's useless. So just this alone is pretty much the same as giving a huge bonus. We were surprised you could even do that. Maybe the OP doesn't realize just how long it took to get this same quality gear before by using tomes, where you'd do daily roulette and get like 100 of them or do Titan HM and get like 15, when most pieces like body needed 875 of them to buy.

My point is when I hit 50, my gear was like ilvl 50 or less. I had to do Ifrit and others over and over collecting tomes to get better gear, then Syrcus Tower for Oil/Sands of Time to upgrade that, then finally WoD when I was geared enough, work on the relic weapon etc, which took months alone but you had to do it since some of the required dungeons or primals needed ilvl 90 as a minimum. Now you can simply buy on the market board or get a friend to buy you gear in Ishgard and you're instantly ilvl 115. If that's not a HUGE bonus right there then I'm sorry but I don't know what more someone else wants.

You actually require far less help then that. It should be possible to run all of the MSQ duties in an undersized group with some 60s. Done Garuda HM in duo as WHM/Ninja (not super geared, like 170~), so with 3 60's it shouldnt be too hard to do all the duties that dont hard require 8~ people.

I think people in this game are too used to just going DF as ive rarely seen Undersized party been brought up as counterargument to trouble finding groups/long waiting time in queue.

Oh I agree, I just mean even if you want to speed through the MSQs having the better gear helps. I didn't do them much until HW was coming out then I had to play catch up. So I was already around ilvl 120 when I had to do my final 30 quests and I found them so easy as WHM as any time you'd get the "You sense a hostile presence!" type where 3 mobs appear, Holy would kick their ass so fast that it was almost too easy. So just saying, you can literally hit 50 and be instantly geared right up now where as before that took a lot more work, so that right there is significant savings in time if you're in a rush to get to HW.

I wanted to weigh in. I bought Heavensward to play DRK, and I am like 6 days in, played time, and I'm.... getting close. The excitement is gone :/

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Boot your tank because the King should never be right in the middle of anything going on.

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Uhh, that's where the King spawns. Not to mention the fact that the King is targetable about 8 seconds before the rest of the moogles are + 5 of the 7 lesser moogles cannot be tanked and hang out in the middle for a few moments more after they are targetable, so he practically begs to get AoE precasted on.

Have you ever actually done this fight?

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Originally Posted by Kyonika

They are only going to roll out the red carpet after I have fully completed the MSQ up to 2.53 (incl. all high level raids required for that progress).

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This is a lie. Neither the Binding Coil of Bahamut, Crystal Tower or any of the Extreme Primals are required to finish the main scenario. Only a few 4-man dungeons (Qarn in 2.1, Snowcloak in 2.4 and Keeper of the Lake in 2.5, I believe) and each story-mode primal fight (Good King Moggle Mog XII, Leviathan, Ramuh, Shiva), as well as Steps of Faith. None of that is high level raid content.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Why, if you were (are) at very good terms with your neighbour, that might even happen naturally.

Unfortunately in mmos these days we are not often on good (or any) terms with our neightbours.

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Akrista and I are trying to reach out and help Raikou with this, so at least some neighbors are worth having.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

You actually require far less help then that. It should be possible to run all of the MSQ duties in an undersized group with some 60s. Done Garuda HM in duo as WHM/Ninja (not super geared, like 170~), so with 3 60's it shouldnt be too hard to do all the duties that dont hard require 8~ people.

I think people in this game are too used to just going DF as ive rarely seen Undersized party been brought up as counterargument to trouble finding groups/long waiting time in queue.

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At the same time... how meaningful really is that content if a new player ends up being carried through it? We had the same issue in FFXI where rather than progressing through the different quests, limit breaks, airship, AF, etc. in a group of people who were progressing together, you'd end up just having one lvl 75 guy sneak/invis you and carry you through it.

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Originally Posted by Viktor_Bot

I wanted to weigh in. I bought Heavensward to play DRK, and I am like 6 days in, played time, and I'm.... getting close. The excitement is gone :/

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People here do not seem to understand the idea that some people don't like to experience 95% of the game with a class they don't even want to play on the way to unlocking the one that they do. How are people supposed to be excited about DK for example after they've literally just done all of the stuff that they'll end up doing again, to get to the point in the game that they were?

Also, on a side note, go and check out how people are running some of the story dungeons. You will literally not have time to even view 2-3 cutscenes before the entire thing is over. People will just farm it, despite you asking for them to slow down and tell you to watch the cutscenes from the inn, of which only a few are actually view-able. On top of it, all of them are nerfed, taking all interest out of actually doing them.

Yeah but in fairness the new classes are exactly that, new. It's not like anyone who is an existing player is getting a huge advantage, we still had to level other classes to it. I'd almost prefer they started anywhere though and worked like any other, from 1 to 60 vs starting at 30, just that you'd need the expansion to unlock them.

Regarding the cut scenes, err this is kind of a mixed bag. While I get it that people want to watch them, you have to realize that 99% of the people in there are in it from roulette and are running them for tomes or exp, where you only get it after completing the dungeon so getting in and out asap is the goal. So while it's nice to pause and let people watch them, it's a major waste of time when everyone has seen them already and some dungeons like CM have a cut scene every few minutes. I never watch them and watch them later in the inn just to be considerate to the other players, because at the end of the day you're the anomaly, and I'd just feel too bad sitting there watching them knowing there's 7 other people standing around unable to do anything while they wait for me. It also prevents us healers from putting Protect or Stoneskin on you while you're viewing them, as it can't be cast on a player watching cutscenes. There's none that are so critical you have to watch them, it's just as easy to watch later. This though has nothing to do with the expansion, it's just the inherent nature of the game. You'll probably find it more an issue now though as before at least new players gave a tomes bonus, so if someone asked nicely most people don't mind waiting while they watch them, but now there's really no incentive to be in there for long.

Either way though, only a few are required to do the main story, not sure why everyone acts like you're forced to do crystal tower and other things that are optional. You have to do the primals, which you only have to do once and are super fast, and then just a few dungeons like Keeper of the Lake. Everything else is optional. I don't mean this in a rude way, but honestly get in a FC and people will be glad to help out if you ask if anyone wants to run a dungeon with you taking their time and letting you view the scenes. If you just ask even in duty finder if people mind, most won't, even if it is annoying. It's the people that don't ask and just sit there watching them that pisses everyone off to the point that most won't wait and then you'll be watching the boss fights from locked outside of the room. Learned that lesson in one early level dungeon the hard way. Since then no viewing cutscenes for me unless they are the ones at the end.

When I first started playing I was in the same boat, even posted on here saying wtf I keep trying to view cutscenes and when they are over people have already started the boss locking me out. However now that I've been at it for a long time, I realize that it's not really being fair expecting people to sit and wait, when they are trying to run the dungeon over and over as fast as possible.

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Originally Posted by 416to305

While I get it that people want to watch them, you have to realize that...

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Let me fix this for you.

While I get it that people want to finish their roulette quickly, they signed up for a story dungeon and know full well the possibillity of any of the several other members they are paired up with may be new. Man I hate the whole concept of the duty finder to be such a toxic addition to the game. Convient as hell but toxic all the same.

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Originally Posted by 416to305

Snip

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Well you also have to understand that people here are saying "FF has always been a story based game", "Don't complain if you don't appreciate the story experience". Well, the reality of it is that people don't even let you do that. And, if you're not there to experience the story like everyone here says, it's just mindless grind, since you get nothing of value out of it, especially since all of the mechanics have been nerfed and you're stuck in there with a party that's greatly overgeared for it. And no, there are cutscenes that you can only view in the dungeon, for example you won't find out what happens with Nero at all, if you don't watch the cutscene in the dungeon. I've personally never had an issue with taking the time to watch cutscenes but it's not a stance that many share.

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Originally Posted by Lucidbro

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as you have probably already been told that is only two dungeons and SE has learned from it's mistakes there. You can A. do the dung and watch cutscenes at the inn or B. just watch cutscenes.

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Originally Posted by justinjarjar

as you have probably already been told that is only two dungeons and SE has learned from it's mistakes there. You can A. do the dung and watch cutscenes at the inn or B. just watch cutscenes.

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Or C, go with a group of friends who will let you watch cutscenes. That's what friends and FCs are for.

I'll answer this question.

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Originally Posted by Raikou777

Is this normal for this games community?

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Yes, yes it is.... I started in 1.0 and then with ARR beta and everything was sunshine and rainbows. Then came ilevel and speed runs and everything became toxic unfortunately.

Some friends of mine are in the same boat sort of. They both got the game and the expansion and just got their characters to lvl 50 and just finished the 2.0 storyline. But they both want to play the new classes (Astrologist and Mechanist) but are annoyed they can't until they reach Ishgard. I understand the frustration about not being able to get to play the new classes but I told them this whole thing is storyline locked. It wouldn't make any sense to reach Ishgard before the events of 2.0-2.5. Honestly if you have no interest in the story then you should probably un-sub. The only thing I kind of don't agree on was locking out the advanced classes. Still have them locked until you reach lvl 50 but not area locked.

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Originally Posted by DacienSanderon

There is nothing like this on the main page. Heck, even when I click on the "buy now" I see nothing like it. I'm sure there is something vague buried somewhere in there but you're really grasping at straws if you think that's an adequate warning.

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As another player pointed out, the warning I was thinking of was in the early access section on the main page. That's a pretty poor place for it. I concede the point and apologize.

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Originally Posted by DacienSanderon

But new players can't? You not seeing the double standard and thinking you somehow deserve more than a new player is part of why you don't comprehend what this thread is about.

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It has nothing to do with what I deserve. It has to do with older content preparing players for newer stuff. The MSQ isn't just there to deliver story. It's there to make sure players see a certain number of trails and dungeons to prepare for the later content. It's there to teach you group content.

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Originally Posted by LaurelinKementari

This is a lie. Neither the Binding Coil of Bahamut, Crystal Tower or any of the Extreme Primals are required to finish the main scenario. Only a few 4-man dungeons (Qarn in 2.1, Snowcloak in 2.4 and Keeper of the Lake in 2.5, I believe) and each story-mode primal fight (Good King Moggle Mog XII, Leviathan, Ramuh, Shiva), as well as Steps of Faith. None of that is high level raid content.

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Thank you for the correction. That's reassuring to know. :)

I was speaking from a point of ignorance, 'cuz I only know what others have said: "back in teh day, we had ta beat all deez dungoens, da HM n EX primals, deez raidz and stuffs and grind out tomes and zodiacs and weapoonz like we grindin' on da dance flo yo -- So you gotta too, and you gonna like it! ... An' den we gonna paaty like its yo birthday!" lol

Though, after completing my MNK and talking to my trainer's geek friend, I actually want to do Crystal Tower. I'm kinda looking forward to that - but after I get my healer/dps up to par. ;) -- cuz my MNK apparently loves the AoE circles too much.

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Originally Posted by 416to305

When I first started playing I was in the same boat, even posted on here saying wtf I keep trying to view cutscenes and when they are over people have already started the boss locking me out. However now that I've been at it for a long time, I realize that it's not really being fair expecting people to sit and wait, when they are trying to run the dungeon over and over as fast as possible.

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One of the reasons for a roulette bonus and a new player bonus is to entice people to help new players.
What's not fair is expecting to people to skip cut scenes.

I hated doing the first 50 dungeons you have, since they're part of the main scenario roulette and people blast through that. It was my first time and I had no idea what was going on. I had to skip all cutscenes and just run behind everyone doing absolutely nothing since everything died before I could target it. The dungeons were over in a couple of minutes, I killed all the bad guys without even noticing it was them, and then it was over, just like that.

I think that is horrible at most. Isn't the focus the story? I went through lots of quests and cutscenes to learn who do ascians, the empire and the ultima weapon were, just to kill them all in a matter of seconds and not even know what happened.

P.S.: I'm still trying to run it the appropriate way, but it seems to be impossible to find a group that doesn't want you to go "bot mode" and destroy things.

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Originally Posted by Ortamus

Dacien, you have no idea of how much I appreciate your existence right now.

Edit: This kind of warning should also be made wherever the expansion is sold.

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Thats not a bad idea, but I do feel you should still have to play through the old content before heavensward.

Some of the cut scenes are long, it's unfair to players who are on their 100th run to be expected to sit and wait for others to watch them especially when there are tons of them. I'm speaking from both sides here, used to get so pissed off when I couldn't watch them but I quickly learned that's not the environment in this game, that 99% of people want to speed through it and don't care about you watching them. So I gave up on it and have never watched them since other than in the inn if I really want to. Now that I'm on the other side of the fence having seen them and running the dungeons for tomes, I can see why people would get annoyed having to watch them. Either way the reality is that if you want to watch them, you pretty much need to go in with a preformed party. I have NO problem waiting if someone asks, but it happens all the time. I just did CM this morning and each boss had about 2 or 3 DPS missing because they were viewing cutscenes and the tanks would just rush in with everyone else. In some cases the boss was killed and they were still viewing cutscenes. So even if you ask nicely, there's still no guarantee that anyone is going to let you watch them. So I'm just saying if it's really important you're best to do a preformed party from friends or your FC, otherwise it really is up to the majority as to what they want.

To Dyegov, I get that as same thing happened here, but the main story quest dungeons like CM and Praetorium are old and there's no value to anyone running them other than roulette for bonus exp now or tomes in the past. No one wants to spend hours in there when there's no point, so can't really expect people to go through it slowly explaining everything and pulling all mobs just so you can see what it is like, plus after 1 or 2 runs you'll know exactly what to do. That's really why you need a preformed party if you want to take your time. Trust me, once you're on you're 10th run of it in the week from getting it in duty finder over and over, you'll be thankful that it's so quick to blast through it. I'm not trying to sound elitist or say I agree with this, it's annoying to me as well. But that's how the game is designed. If they actually gave reason to take your time or pull everything, then it would be different. But SE designed it that all you ultimately want is to complete it, so it's only natural people will find the quickest most efficient way to blast through it to the end.

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Originally Posted by 416to305

Some of the cut scenes are long, it's unfair to players who are on their 100th run to be expected to sit and wait

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Then they can form a premade or not q. They are rewarded for doing so.
Waiting sucks I am not going to say it doesn't but personally I will never grief some one or kick some one for doing it and will defend their choice to do so.
The first week HW was out I got grief for watching cut scenes and have seen people get kicked for it

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Originally Posted by Tuathaa

Then they can form a premade or not q. They are rewarded for doing so.

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You're rewarded for completing the dungeon with a new player. There's no extra reward for waiting.

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Originally Posted by Tuathaa

Waiting sucks I am not going to say it doesn't but personally I will never grief some one or kick some one for doing it and will defend their choice to do so.
The first week HW was out I got grief for watching cut scenes and have seen people get kicked for it

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You can not wait on them while also not griefing them or kicking them. People getting kicked for watching cutscenes happens, but that's reportable and a separate issue from whether or not to wait around while people watch the cutscenes.

To go back to the topic at hand, there is a story reason why you cannot skip content.

Why can't you go to Ishgard? Because of the story.

Why can't you have access to the new jobs? Because of the story.

Why can't you just pick whatever dungeon you want to run right off the bat? Because of the story.

Most everything you want is intricately tied to the main story. You wan't to skip the story? Too bad. Just play the game, I promise, it's good.

Also, to those people really impatient about others watching the cutscenes? Go get something to drink or make a snack. You're playing a video game and, to be honest, you literally have nothing else more important going on. If you did, you wouldn't be playing a game. So, just sit back, give your hands a rest, and wait the 2-3 minutes that it would take to watch a cutscene. Remember, your time isn't more important than the other three people in your group. Don't ruin their play experience just because your grinding for an armor set.

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Originally Posted by 416to305

Some of the cut scenes are long, it's unfair to players who are on their 100th run to be expected to sit and wait for others to watch them especially when there are tons of them.

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It's also unfair, if you are new, that you are not allowed to watch cut scenes on your first time through.

So, try asking with: "It's my first time here, so can I please watch the cut scenes? Please please please." Followed by a /pray or /grovel emote.
If you are on the Japanese side: 「私がここに来るのは初めてなので、カットシーンを見てみよう？。。。お願いしま～～～す。」 Followed by a /pray or /grovel emote.

It should work like 9/10 times, right?. Besides, what's the worst that could happen? They say "no," and they kick you or you have to drop group and you have to re-queue? w/e it's all good.

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Originally Posted by Mhikail

Shouldn't of gotten the expansion until you finished 2.0 then.
First question is because it expands onto the game...that's why
it is called an expansion... o_o

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No offense, but they should have mentioned that. I bought it expecting to be able to just go through all of it after a break I had taken. They basically kidnap your money until you finish shit you dont want to do.

Just imagine if there was no duty finder how fast people who kick others from dungeons for watching cuts scenes would wind up blackballed by the community.