That's all you're worth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
Momentum =/= ability to move in random directions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tilgung
A car with forward momentum isn't going to suddenly be able to drive in reverse at the same speed.
That time in the animation where they're not even on the ground? Yeah, it'd be really tough to maintain the force of their kick AND somehow manage to repeatedly shift directions they're moving.
Kind of like how when you jump, even in the game, you can't randomly change directions mid-jump.
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07-11-2015, 05:26 AMAiselia
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07-11-2015, 06:42 AMViviza
All this complaining is nice, but you know they're not going to completely revert a new mechanic they've introduced.
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07-11-2015, 08:05 AMChazNatloIt would be nice if the conversation drifted from "Our class is ruined!" and "They changed it and I am uncomfortable with this." and "You don't get it, you're not a Bard." to thoughts of how to fix it within the framework of "seriously, they aren't getting rid of Wanderers, they want to you be stuck in place from time to time." Since the lack of mobility ISN'T the problem, WM is fine by it's self, isn't it? The issue is how it interacts with Bards other actions. Are there changes to these other actions that could make the class mesh better? Would it be better if Wanderer's rooted you in place via a status ((A non curable bind, for instance)) and lost the casting timer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Viviza
Edit: Also, the comparisons to the other classes need to stop unless the comparison only makes the class harder to play, not Kneecap the DPS. Jump does pitiful damage unless you are exactly where you shouldn't be? -
07-11-2015, 08:21 AMAiseliaNo, because that would make perfect stance dancing necessary for basic survival and be harder than any class to avoid things, in which case I'd expect top DPS for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChazNatlo
There's been plenty of suggestions in several different threads about how to make it better than it is now if they want to limit mobility.
For one, why does the cast time need to be 1.5 sec? A .5 sec cast time prevents you from running while shooting just as much, and would line up better with attack animations and OGCDs.
Another, why have cast times? Why not just remove it when you move and you have to put it back on when you stop? (This is honestly what I thought it was going to be from initial announcements)
At the worst, the only thing those "ruin" is the use of Repelling Shot because of its necessary mobility, but that would be outweighed easily by the extra damage. -
07-11-2015, 08:22 AMLeafElksthorne
Cryptic, I'll give you that.
I think we know what it is though. It's a big FU from SE to all BRDs who enjoyed the play style of BRD. -
07-11-2015, 09:36 AMLeafElksthorne
haha. I started another thread bringing up the very valid point that:
We paid for this game expecting something we've had for 2 years. It's not just "this sucks I don't like this ability" it is literally, BRDs who have been playing this for 2 years gave real money for a job they never wanted... it was a bait and switch and I feel ripped off.
lol and it was deleted by SE. -
07-11-2015, 09:38 AMSen_TerrechantIt was a terrible thread with a terrible analogy that didnt fit the current situation at all. Sooo ya know, kinda deserved to be deleted.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafElksthorne
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07-11-2015, 09:38 AMSovereignAegisQuote:
Originally Posted by LeafElksthorne
I was replying to that other person who stated every class had "huge changes" and that Bard's are just whiners.
I want to put it in this very thread because a lot of people seem confused on Bard's change and think it is trivial... IT IS NOT A TRIVIAL CHANGE, IT'S HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Those changes are extremely minor compared to the dramatic change Bard got.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sen_Terrechant
-WAR still is a phenomenal tank, they are not a DPS class at all. They are a high performing tank that does a massive amount of damage, their role didn't change whatsoever in the slightest. If anything they became THE most lucrative tank of them all to have in a well-known / familiar environment.
-WHM is NOT expected to DPS more, SCH is NOT expected to DPS less- I have absolutely no idea where you got this from. I main SCH and so this line in particular is irksome- the day someone tells me to DPS less is the day I leave that party/static. Mana management is still superb, DoT potency + broil spam is still superb, fairy still offsets heal with virus + eye for an eye and shields. I abhorrently disagree with this.
-Furthermore WHM DPS more? At present their mana problems in most fights are awful, and spamming stone and their new aero is a horrendous idea in long fights. Does stone 3 improve their damage output? Yes. But any WHM who contributed to DPS before at certain select parts can/knows when to now. Nothing changed for that.
-SMN Stacks are a joke to watch out for, I am also a fully i179 SMN and have taken it numerous times to Ravana. It's basically just a compliment to their rotation and is far from a staggering change- if anything it is widely agreed that it was a substantial buff that put them in a strong state. Not a massive playstyle change, spamming ruin 2 now is sometimes interjected by spamming ruin 3 for 12 seconds then bahamut-bombing the enemy- ruin 2 can still be cast at the same time. -
07-11-2015, 09:59 AMenilAlso had some terrible hyperbole (2% of bards?, no-one at SE ever played the job?), and some inappropriate language...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sen_Terrechant
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07-14-2015, 06:31 PMGrimm08
"Dramatic Change"
You have a cast time added Only while in WM as well as no auto attacks? But your abilities are given a 30% Damage Boost and it can be toggled off and on now without any kind of cast time? Unless you're outright dodging mechanics, what use is there to move?
I agree for the most part with Sen, the change was an addition to make the job better, which it did. Just because it's not what you wanted, it's not bad.
A small note on another thing that was said on WHM "At present their mana problems in most fights are awful" No. They're not. If your WHM is having mana problems while DPSing, they are subpar at best. Mana management comes with a mage class (except BLM in the same regard). If you can't manage your mana while healing and DPSing, you shouldn't be playing that class. -
07-14-2015, 06:35 PMcgbspender
Every new raid/boss post expansion requieres a lot of moving. And we do have a a 15sec CD to toggle it on/off.
That said, the recent changes made to bard seem to have fixed it (partly) and allow us to reach decent dps. -
07-14-2015, 06:43 PMArtairYou do realize you can toggle WM off and back on right? Toggling a stance isn't exactly difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by SovereignAegis
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07-14-2015, 10:03 PMGreywolfamakirIf You don't like the new BRD, You are right posting here.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafElksthorne
You can change your main job.
You can wait for changes in 3.05 (I dont expect "real" changes tbh)
You can cancel your account.
You can play with WM off and be almost "carried" by your team.
http://i.imgur.com/A3oVL5m.png -
07-14-2015, 10:39 PMSovereignAegisWM being off is only a trivial 10% DPS increase when not moving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir
In heavy mechanic fights WM off is an increase in DPS.
So WM off isn't being carried the difference in a real fight is non existent. -
07-15-2015, 12:23 AMEphierI was unaware that 10% (b4b) 24/7 boost to DPS was "trivial". Good sir, when you play a DPS even getting 20 more DPS is meaningful, and you think 10% is trivial, you are funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by SovereignAegis
WM is toggle with a 15s cooldown, there is no reason not to be toggling it as mechanics are coming.
If a BRD is trying to go against the system and not use WM and be on their old 2.0 BRD play style, they shall be removed from my parties. No need to gimp yourself just cause you do not like something. -
07-15-2015, 12:39 AMSekundessounetQuote:
Originally Posted by Ephier
Besides, the dude was only a lvl 32 Bard a few days ago, so him whining about "having the playstyle he got for YEAARS CHANGEF !1!!§1!&" is kinda ridiculous. And he's responsible for the most part of "Bard" complaint on this forum these days. -
07-15-2015, 12:44 AMViarHe still is. Just ignore him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekundessounet
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07-15-2015, 12:53 AMGreywolfamakirtrivial...TRIVIAL...TRIVIAL...TRIVIAL...TRIVIAL...Quote:
Originally Posted by SovereignAegis
Ok...You used to be carried hard I guess :) -
07-15-2015, 01:11 AMSolsanna
Anyone considered that giving a class DPS on par with other classes and full mobility and range at the same time is inherently overpowered and they did this so that BRD can be a DPS that can keep up with other DPS by sacrificing said infinite mobility? It's not possible to balance a class with infinite mobility in a game where most of the challenge is dodging things, the only things that can be done are either reduce their damage so that they're subpar as a dps class but more survivable, or to remove said mobility to bring them in line skill-wise. They did the former, and then settled on the latter.
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07-15-2015, 01:12 AMEphierOMFG someone gets it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solsanna
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07-15-2015, 01:30 AMAiseliaAnyone considered that mobility isn't the end-all of the issues with WM?Quote:
Originally Posted by Solsanna
Of course not, because that would require an understanding of the issues, and it's easier to just assume it's all about the mobility. -
07-15-2015, 01:38 AMEphierEnlighten us to its problem please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiselia
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07-15-2015, 01:43 AMSekundessounetWell, when 80% of the Bards on this forum are complaining that "NO MORE MOBILITY THEY RUINED MY JOB", yeah, you tend to think that their problem is the mobility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiselia
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07-15-2015, 02:08 AMAiseliaNo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephier
I, and others, have brought up the problems with having cast times on the class outside of the mobility in several threads, multiple times. There is even a thread by Snowaeth that very clearly and succinctly spells out the issues and attempts to suggest solutions, even within the constraints of the current WM.
If you can't read that on your own, then it won't make a difference if I spell it out for you. -
07-15-2015, 02:20 AMEphierSo you can complain, but when someone asks you what you think is wrong with the class you refuse to answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiselia
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07-15-2015, 02:23 AMAiseliaNope. I already answered it, as I said. I just refuse to restate what I've already said multiple times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephier
I also pointed you to a place where you could get a far better explanation than I could give, so if you really cared, you could go there and read that. If you refuse to go read that, you clearly don't care. -
07-15-2015, 02:32 AMSolsanna
He's likely referring to the issue of lost procs on bloodletter and the like, which really it depends on parses, if you miss procs but are still dealing decent damage, then it's likely intentional, as what matters in the end is what your numbers are compared to other classes.
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07-15-2015, 02:32 AMKayoteThe only other "arguments" ive seen are those concerning using two off-GCD abilities between GCD shots and SS procs. However if our DPS is the same, its all irrelevant. Just because in the old rotation you popped two off-GCD abilities between shots for max DPS doesnt mean it needs to be so after 3.0, or the the class is broken because they dont align perfectly. Hell, maybe its still better overall DPS to use two even with the delay in the next shot, maybe not. Same goes for SS procs, theyre like 10s long, more than enough time to use it. Sure, you may lose a second proc now and then... but again, is our DPS ok? Then there are really no issues. Different is not broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiselia
Feel free to at least post the link with these new valid problems and ideas though... -
07-15-2015, 02:37 AMSolsanna
Seems in that Snoweath thread the major complaint isn't the dps but the clunkiness of the class due to how WM works. Unfortunately as a company I'm relatively sure that they're more interested in DPS numbers and less interested in playstyle preference. They'd likely suggest you just try a different class, which is what I might also suggest, because despite many complaints, there are also many people who like or do not have an issue with the changes.
They quickly addressed the most important issue, the DPS issue, if they address playstyle later, we'll see. But they won't do so anytime soon, just look at DRG.
The reason the class felt so "streamlined" before was because it was insanely mindless and simple. The fact that it's gained complexity is the issue for most people. Same issue being felt by BLMS. -
07-15-2015, 03:00 AMFyce
WM Cast times does the following:
- Mobility is reduced, but the job's still the most mobile one in the game, by far.
- Spare time to use instant oGCD is reduced to ~1-1.5sec. This also affect the amount of time you have to aknoledge a proc and use it.
- Auto-attacks are gone. Negative side effect: makes Barrage useless. Positive side effect: you are able to move in every direction with little care about facing your target (in short: no more mandatory strafing).
- General "swiftness feeling" of the job is impacted. While this statement is objective, the effect it can have will vary from a player to another.
- Overall DPS increases in general. Exceptions depending on the fight may be present. Players must know what stance to chose (in short: know the fight).
As Solsanna said, if in order to keep all the advantages of the job SE would've put Bard's DPS way too low, the complains would've been way worse because of the amount of DPS check in HS. "Hey, you are a bard? Well, nobody cares about your swiftness and mobility, we know that Bard's DPS is sub-par, so get out of the group" would've been the sentence most eared by Bards.
It's clear at this point that the balance of this job lies in a few words: you can't have everything. WM is here to proves that and Bards have to accept it... or play without it to keep "what they picked the job for", but remain sub-par DPS. -
07-15-2015, 03:05 AMRikkustrifeIt hasn't though, at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solsanna
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07-15-2015, 03:12 AMAiseliaI'd argue this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyce
Summoners have two cast-time abilities outside of DWT that are necessary to maintain. Ruin 1 does the same damage as Ruin 2 but you can move while using Ruin 2 and you have enough MP to use it during high movement phases. The only time Summoners are particularly locked down are for the 5 sec it takes to cast Bio 2/Miasma, then the <15 sec of DWT using Ruin 3 (less than because your last hit will be the instant cast DF).
Summoners do not suffer a DPS loss by using Ruin 2 over Ruin 1 if they need to move, while Bards would suffer a DPS loss if they had to turn off WM.
Oddly enough, I feel less limited in mobility while on an actual caster than I do as a Bard.
You also can limit mobility (if necessary) without adding cast times.Quote:
you can't have everything.
If anything, it has become less complex and challenging because the cast times give it a slower pace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solsanna
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07-15-2015, 03:22 AMEphierLess complex than 2.0 BRD? How?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiselia
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07-15-2015, 03:25 AMFyceThe fact that you said that SMN have to be rooted for 5s every now and then, plus 15s every minute proves my point since that will never happen with a Bard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiselia
Besides, go try doing a good job in someine like A1 (keeping DoTs on both bosses), killing two adds while using Ruin II and I can guarantee you that your MP pool will be gone in a blink.
Bards, even in WM, remains mobile at range at all time. No other job can do that. -
07-15-2015, 03:26 AMKaze3434http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/8001661/Quote:
Originally Posted by SovereignAegis
oh look, something something kettle. -
07-15-2015, 03:26 AMKumori_Kumo
Hm.
I mean, I don't play a Bard. I mostly tank. But at the same time I'm lookin' around at other classes.
Does Bard do a ton of damage? The Bard I remember sure didn't, but I might be mistaken! Probably not though?
Does Bard do great utility? Ninjas give me all the TP I want and Machinist seems to be like five times the toolbox of any other class.
So... if all that's true, I guess the question I'm asking myself here is... why a Bard? Why would you roll one now if it's not the total run-and-gun fun in the sun class with middling damage? I've always thought it was "the simple job" but there's room for that. Some people like simple jobs. You can't tell people they're wrong for their choices. But I'm not much of a DPS, so enlighten me! -
07-15-2015, 03:27 AMWintersandmanOut of curiosity how much time over the course of a 3-5 minute fight are you forced to move?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiselia
This is just a perception seeing how your ability timers are significantly shorter than other casters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiselia
Does it may that much of a difference? Bloodletter aside.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiselia
How does it slow things down? Just because you don't get to run around like a jack rabbit doesn't mean anything is slower.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiselia
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07-15-2015, 03:32 AMRikkustrifeWell bards did more damage than people here seem to think, but yes they did lower damage than the other dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kumori_Kumo
Otherwise you are correct.
It is a simple job, but black mage was just as simple, black mage now seems a lot more complex though.
I don't know why some people like the new changes, but some do -
07-15-2015, 03:38 AMZamii
please, make me into a fist mage as the OP's title said, then i would be able to show all the whiners just how easy it is to use cast times and still dodge everything.
ok, so its not the class you played originally, guess what, this is an MMO, things change; sometimes you like them, sometimes you don't.
but you know what, your not restricted to bard, if you don't like the class anymore, then play something else. -
07-15-2015, 03:43 AMRikkustrifehow does a 1.5 seconds wait for almost every attack not make it slower?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman