Disappointed by Alexander (story) difficulty, fear Savage difficulty

One thing I just want to point out/ask for clarification: I've seen a few times here on the forums that in Japan, the Binding Coil is called Savage Coil of Bahamut or some such, while the Second Coil Savage we have, is called Brutal there. If this is true, then when Yoshi talked about Alexander Hard being harder then FCoB Savage, would that mean he is basically just talking about the regular FCoB basically? It would explain why it seems there will be such a difference in diifculty, in that it won't actually be quite as hard (And also leaves room for there to BE an even harder version it seems.)

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

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I wondered this too..the naming conventions we have all seem a bit strange, what with all the hard modes that are actually story modes, and extreme modes that aren't that extreme. I remember the quote you talk about, saying something along the lines of "about as hard as Final Coil Savage" - whether it was meant as a kind of joke or was just a translation of the japanese name for final coil, I don't know.

But I'd be very surprised if the difficulty jumps from Alex NM to something on par with savage SCOB. I'm expecting coil difficulty tbh, maybe a little harder.

Alexander NM = a fresh reset in the difficulty curve of raiding for new raiders, with DF in place to encourage new blood to get their feet wet and allow players room to learn their job, get to grips with basic raid mechanics, etc.

This stuff honestly isn't any worse than what T1-4 were like once 2.1 hit and folks were running around in i80, which was actually the 'intended' item level for BCOB.

Experienced raiders are going to feel it's massively easy because they're used to later turns of Coil, where small missteps can mean death or wipes and players are pushed to their absolute limits rolewise. The playerbase as a whole is more skilled, so what was hard three years ago isn't hard any more.

Once Alexander NM is barren of experienced raiders preferring Savage you will see a spike in failure rates in DF.

Alexander Sav = A continuation of FCOB's difficulty curve for experienced raiders.

Also it's called normal mode, not story mode.

im just waiting for the flood of topics titled "wahhh alex savage is too hard SE pls nerf" in 2 weeks

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Originally Posted by ErzaScarlet77

im just waiting for the flood of topics titled "wahhh alex savage is too hard SE pls nerf" in 2 weeks

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That's maybe the one bad thing about losing the content gate.

Now, we have people who will try to step into Savage who clearly shouldn't be there if it's going to be harder than the Final coil of bahamut.

What I hope the locks look like:

Alexander NM1 -> Alexander NM2 -> Alexander NM3

Alexander NM1 -> Alexander SM1 -> Alexander SM2 -> Alexander SM3

Basically, don't let beating Normal Mode unlock Savage mode. Have Savage Mode be unlocked by first clearing the first round of Normal Mode (as an obvious pre-req) and then lock the Savages thereafter into themselves.

Coming from someone who loves to raid, I'm just happy to be and see people actively raiding again.


Off topic note: SE, 3.1, GobTank mount. Dyeable. Crestable. Acquired by tokens, and not an unreasonable amount. We need this. Please make it happen.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Coming from someone who loves to raid, I'm just happy to be and see people actively raiding again.


Off topic note: SE, 3.1, GobTank mount. Dyeable. Crestable. Acquired by tokens, and not an unreasonable amount. We need this. Please make it happen.

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With an upgrade like Magitek mount so we have the chain?

Sure, why not!

And if I can make a selfish MCH request, moar gunblades. Different types/designs from the Blue Steel/Wolf Knifelock.

And bugger all, Cid's new coat and Y'shtola's new boots are hella sexy! 10/10 would give up Hydealyn's blessing again for my own versions of their gear :D

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Now, we have people who will try to step into Savage who clearly shouldn't be there if it's going to be harder than the Final coil of bahamut.

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Nah, it'll be just like old times. PF flooded with "No <x> bonus" entries and people buying/begging their first run to 'break in' to raiding. The only difference is they'll have to get a carry for four encounters instead of six.

Personally, I don't see what the problem is. A4 isn't 'hard' but from what I've experienced, it weeds out crappy players damn fast.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

That's maybe the one bad thing about losing the content gate.

Now, we have people who will try to step into Savage who clearly shouldn't be there if it's going to be harder than the Final coil of bahamut.

What I hope the locks look like:

Alexander NM1 -> Alexander NM2 -> Alexander NM3

Alexander NM1 -> Alexander SM1 -> Alexander SM2 -> Alexander SM3

Basically, don't let beating Normal Mode unlock Savage mode. Have Savage Mode be unlocked by first clearing the first round of Normal Mode (as an obvious pre-req) and then lock the Savages thereafter into themselves.

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The unlock order will not matter since it won't be on the DF. People without statics will try to pug, then realize it doesn't work, then either give up, or actually make a static to learn the fight. Just like coil.
In case you don't remember coil never got put into the DF until the gear was irrelevant due to max ilvl increase (which happened to be when they unlocked the next raid). Final is the exception, but it was obviously the last one so they had to put it in eventually (still a good 4-5 months after). Let's not make problems that are non-issues. Natural order will sort things out. If the difficulty is second (or first) coil tier, then it will naturally fall into the case I described. If not, then it's a non-issue because the fight is pug-able. I hope they learn there lesson and not make the requirements so low, that you basically have no gear progression to clear it (like final coil).

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Originally Posted by Orbiaus

I don't find these hard but i've seen many players struggle with them. Do the mechanics stay the same for the savage version? If they do, this is a great way of learning them. Most wipes are due to failure to understand mechanics dps players are really bad and they are doing like 400 dps avarage. Coil was a pain because of that.

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I fixed it for you.

I keep going back and forth on this and think that overall it was good for them to do this like they did but I wish it was a little bit tougher...just a little bit. It is just too on par with CT difficulty. I cannot wait for Savage...want the weapon.
The Gate on savage will be having to have a static and then we are back to normal so all is good.

orz

That about sums up my experience with it so far, and that's only just trying to get through the first floor. I would hope that over time it's going to get easier, but right now this is where the highest tier gear comes from, so until esoterics comes out this is the best we can get... and once that happens, people won't even care about this stuff anymore.

I'm not going to be doing this 4x a week to get mere *segments* (tokens) for gear that's 1) only 10 item levels higher and 2) very soon to be outclassed anyway.

Its humorous to see people overreacting and thinking Alexander's Savage difficulty will be on Second Coil's tier. Are you serious? Do you know how many people cleared that shit without over-gearing? Its common sense. Savage's difficulty will no doubt be typical Coil difficulty upon release.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I'm not going to be doing this 4x a week to get mere *segments* (tokens) for gear that's 1) only 10 item levels higher and 2) very soon to be outclassed anyway.

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You noticed the word "Prototype" in the item names?

I the german client this word is within "(" and ")".

So I would expect, this gear will be upgradeable and Alex savage will drop the upgrade mats for it, maybe beside the same tokens.

If it will come this way, I'm pretty shure the upgrade mats will follow the same rules as the the old day lootrules in Coil.

So most will run savage turns once a week for the upgrade mats and than the normal turns for filling up the tokens.

I think Alexander NM is at a perfect difficulty for people just doing it to enjoy the story. Something like this should have been done for Coil too, and I am very happy to see it implemented right in Heavensward. If anything, Alexander Normal is a feather in the cap for SE in what has been a very smooth and accessible expansion launch, kudos.

To those wanting to cut their teeth in something harder, well give it a couple of weeks and I am sure savage will provide you with ample challenge. I definitely want to continue seeing future Alexander Floors released with the NM/Savage mode parallels.

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You noticed the word "Prototype" in the item names?

I the german client this word is within "(" and ")".

So I would expect, this gear will be upgradeable and Alex savage will drop the upgrade mats for it, maybe beside the same tokens.

If it will come this way, I'm pretty shure the upgrade mats will follow the same rules as the the old day lootrules in Coil.

So most will run savage turns once a week for the upgrade mats and than the normal turns for filling up the tokens.

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Pretty meaningless if I can't even beat the normal modes to get the base armor anyway.

After 2 years or so of seeing "Get good" threads directed at those with issues to coil difficulty, I am ready for the midcore/hardcore player reckoning that will be Alexander Savage (or at least should be). If you want the story, do the faceroll version, but if you want the best armor/weapon in the game at the time and the added superiority then the content should be significantly difficult.

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Originally Posted by Omegakiyohime

After 2 years or so of seeing "Get good" threads directed at those with issues to coil difficulty, I am ready for the midcore/hardcore player reckoning that will be Alexander Savage (or at least should be). If you want the story, do the faceroll version, but if you want the best armor/weapon in the game at the time and the added superiority then the content should be significantly difficult.

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There will be no reckoning to speak of if the content is over-tuned.

The hardcore players wont care. They'll just do it, get it done and continue to tell you to "git gud".

The midcore players will suffer because the content that was at a challenging level before without being too difficult has already been nerfed into oblivion to satisfy the casual crowd, leaving the game with little to no midcore content. The players that have the skills to transition into hardcore players will do so, the ones that don't will give up and do something else.

The players that had issues with coil difficulty before are already asking for nerfs to Alexander, or they're complaining about the ilvl requirement.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

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And? I don't think mid-core players that can't transition to Savage should be getting rewards on par with those that can and do, and I don't think SE should put in a middle step outside of the usual 3-month later upgrade item drop.
The endgame 8-man serves 2 purposes. The first is to expand on the story, while the second is to provide a challenge and reward those that overcome that challenge. NM achieves the first while Savage should achieve the second and imo, it should not be clearable by anyone that's not playable at their highest ability or atleast close to it. As to midcore players having no content, they'll have content. Savage should provide a sufficient challenge to them. If they can't clear it, then they can either get better or forgo the rewards.

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Originally Posted by Omegakiyohime

And? I don't think mid-core players that can't transition to Savage should be getting rewards on par with those that can and do, and I don't think SE should put in a middle step outside of the usual 3-month later upgrade item drop.
The endgame 8-man serves 2 purposes. The first is to expand on the story, while the second is to provide a challenge and reward those that overcome that challenge. NM achieves the first while Savage should achieve the second and imo, it should not be clearable by anyone that's not playable at their highest ability or atleast close to it. As to midcore players having no content, they'll have content. Savage should provide a sufficient challenge to them. If they can't clear it, then they can either get better or forgo the rewards.

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Nobody is saying they should recieve the same rewards for hardcore content as those who are tackling the highest levels of the game.

You specifically said a reckoning for the midcore/hardcore crowd, but the issue is more that any content without the (savage) level of difficulty has usually been nerfed until it's faceroll easy effectively cutting midcore content out of the game.

Due to the constant demands for nerfs (see: echo) for the average midcore player there are only two options when it comes to types of content;

faceroll easy or savage.

also love the irony of you complaining about the number of "get good" threads while simultaneously telling midcore players to "get good"

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Originally Posted by Ryel

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And? Maybe midcore players can ask for a nerf after the fact so they can tackle savage. I don't think they SE should be in middle level.

And yes, there will be a reckoning and a sudden realization that a lot of people are not as "hardcore" as they think they are. I cleared both coils (while I was still raiding) before the echo so I'm well aware of the fact that many people viewed clearing "coil" as some statement of their skill, when it really was a statement about their gear level after a couple of weeks.

That being said, if coil/alexander didn't contain a related side story, I'd be ok with the lack of a story mode as well.
Life is full of irony.