The nerfs to Empyreal Arrow and Sidewinder?
Empyreal Arrow: 240 x 1.2 = 288 potency, 220 x 1.3 = 286. Wow, 2 whole potency lost, buff brd plz.
Sidewinder: (150 + 100 + 100) x 1.2 = 420, (100 + 75 + 75) x 1.3 = 325. So yes, Sidewinder hits for less, but consider that every single other attack as well as our DoT damage has increased by a further 10% since 3.01 from Wanderer's Minuet:
2160 (total potency from Straight Shot, Heavy Shot, Repelling Shot, Blunt Arrow, Flaming Arrow total, Windbite total, Venomous Bite total, 3.0 Empyreal Arrow and 3.0 Sidewinder) x 1.2 = 2592, compared to:
2040 (total potency of above skills but with 3.01 Empyreal Arrow and Sidewinder) x 1.3 = 2652. Looks to me like a dps increase wouldn't you know.
BRD/MCH Fixed!
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07-09-2015, 01:27 PMSirionArmar
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07-09-2015, 01:28 PMSirionArmar
If people wish to boycott Bard or Machinist because they feel like all we have received since HW are nerfs, be my guest. If people wish to remain as BRD/MCH but choose to ignore WM/GB, I will be the first to judge you for underutilising the job and essentially kneecapping yourself, as you are doing nothing but lowering your own dps for not even trying to master the supposedly "brand new" (see any casting class) playstyle. It's been a couple of weeks, I guarantee you did not master 2.0 bard this quickly. You didn't create the class, Square Enix did, and they have the right to do with their assets as they wish. I enjoy the changes, and I think Square Enix did a good job of quickly fixing the initial issues with the class. I was hoping that with the 3.01 fixes there would be less of this garbage about these classes circulating but you just can't please everyone.
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07-09-2015, 01:53 PMDinahDemiurgeSounds like you'd love blm. Some of us chose bard because it wasn't a bow wizard.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirionArmar
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07-09-2015, 01:58 PMSirionArmarActually, I barely play BLM, only got it to lv 26 for Swiftcast for my WHM. I don't have a single dps caster above that, and I only have WHM to 50. Please do your research before attempting to insult people, it only makes your own arguments seem petty and sad. And sure, I'll admit it, I enjoy being a bow wizard, and I will also enjoy being able to not only support my team better, but do larger dps numbers than you.Quote:
Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge
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07-09-2015, 02:01 PMDinahDemiurgeIt wasn't an insult. Don't be paranoid.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirionArmar
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07-09-2015, 02:11 PMSirionArmarI'n not being paranoid, sweet of you to think so however. I am simply willing to fight for my favourite job in the game. I'm sick to death of people belittling it and outright rejecting it; the term "Bow Wizard" is one such term that is often thrown around with disdain. You'll have to forgive me for revealing the truth to people, but if you can't take the changes leave the job to those who actually love it instead of whining about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge
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07-09-2015, 02:16 PMDinahDemiurgeI left the job a while ago as it feels slow and clunky to me now. Moved on to a job that fits my fast paced preferences. No hard feelings to all the BWZsQuote:
Originally Posted by SirionArmar
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07-09-2015, 02:32 PMnuyu11Most of bard dps come from auto attack and all previous skill are instant cast, you only have 2.5sec GCD.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirionArmar
With WM you got 30% dmg buff but without auto attack and plus more 1.5 more cast time.
Without WM in 3min you can do many skill + auto attack = DPS
With WM you can do less skill because of additional casting time - auto attack + 30% dmg.
I love bard and still play it but I only use WM as a opener nothing much most of my DPS so far come from auto attack.
If our cast time is 1sec and our GCD is 2sec that would be fair trade for mobility and losing auto attack. -
07-09-2015, 02:41 PMSirionArmarTrue auto attacks did a large portion back in 2.X but you gotta take into account the Barrage change as well as the effect of Determination being reduced for auto attacks. Pre-Heavensward auto attacks were roughly 30% of our dps. Once 3.0 hit due to the changes it dropped to 20-25%. Now with the 3.01 changes WM is no longer a dps loss, which was one of the largest issues people had with the skill. Also WM has the added benefit of scaling incredibly well with increasing gear, which will soon be a reality as more Alex gear, Esoterics and Alex Sav gear is gained. I'll admit the addition of the instant cast certainly does make stance dancing much more viable, and yeah, its still worthwhile to turn it off post opener, especially in movement heavy fights. Personally I like keeping it on though, Iron Jaws is a damn nice skill to possess.Quote:
Originally Posted by nuyu11
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07-09-2015, 04:00 PMLunarEmerald
If you continue to play bard in serious content then you better get used to using minuet as much as possible. Otherwise you're just gonna be hurting the group and I guarantee if you have dps issues, the group will be the first to blame you. With the recent change, there's no question that minuet is a dps increase.
It may eventually reach the point where bards that refuse to minuet are kicked. It's almost like refusing to use your job stone. -
07-09-2015, 04:19 PMlordjoosie
There's no denying that 3.01 BRD is better than 3.0 BRD, or that a bard using WM out damages a BRD that doesn't. It's also true that a slap in the face is better than a kick in the junk. But I still don't like to be slapped.
There is no excuse for a BRD to do less damage than another DPS, (and if you think BRD is now on par with other DPS you need to stop letting duty finder partys pump your ego, ) unless his/her utility offsets the damage lost.
As it sits, a bard not casting songs adds nothing to the party beyond their own damage, aside from maybe some saved mp on cures in some fights. Give us 5 or 10% less damage when not in WM for that. When we do cast songs, they have a built in damage penalty to offset the benefit to the party. Raise it back to the old 25% that'd be fine.
But they need to either raise our damage till it's on par with other DPS, or make our songs free of penalty. -
07-09-2015, 04:32 PMAlahraI sincerely doubt we'll see the former happen without a major paradigm shift in design. "Support DPS" is currently something the developers do consider to be a real thing in the game. I could see them removing (or at least lessening) the penalties on the songs, though--having to cast them is a loss of DPS already.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordjoosie
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07-09-2015, 04:38 PMWarlyx
just let me shoot bloodletter while casting ...so frustrating....watching it proc at the begging of a cast and near the end :_(
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07-09-2015, 05:24 PMAmulreiFinally! Someone seems to grasp this concept.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordjoosie
My biggest problem with MCH/BRD is you are penalized for being a utility class even if the utility in question is not in play or even of any use. You don't need TP/MP auras when leveling, doing dungeons, dinking about the open world and even in most trials. Unless hardcore raiding, you are unlikely even going to consider the aura as viable. And yet both the MCH and BRD are punished for even having access to this utility every moment of their existence only to then be hit with a further penalty to their damage when they finally do get to use it.
Meanwhile, DRGs get to run around screaming away with their party wide crit auras and do not lose a single point of DPS. Go figure... -
07-09-2015, 05:27 PMAmulreiThat would be valid if 1) The utility was always useful (which it isn't) 2) made up for the damage BRD/MCH miss out on (which it doesn't) or 3) utility was something limited to these supposed utility classes (which since HW, very much is not the case).Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
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07-09-2015, 05:34 PMMrYaahYour argument that bard needs buffs is that it isnt as useful in dungeons and while leveling? First of all, bard aoe and burst is amazing which works really well on dungeons and when killing trash where you kill a few mobs then have a gap where you're hitting nothing and your cds recover. If anything I'd argue that bard is one of the better dungeon dps. Also why does it even matter if you do 5% less dps than someone else in a dungeon or when killing that mob for a quest, the kind of people who only do dungeons and quests dont care about dps. Do you seriously parse yourself when you do haukke manor and think to yourself, well SHIT im doing so horribly in this dungeon and theres nothing I can do about it until square enix buffs my class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amulrei
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07-09-2015, 05:42 PMNoira
Yaah sadly I knew a few people who do that. It really matters to them even inside dungeons.
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07-09-2015, 05:50 PMCBellzFoe Requiem is almost always useful. The only situation in which it wouldn't be is if you had a healer who didn't dps. That situation would be extremely rare in Alex Savage, where fights will be tuned to account for healer dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amulrei
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07-09-2015, 06:11 PMFateAudaxSays the Scholar player. Lol. I love these guys. They tend to think they are expert in a job when they are main-ing another job.Quote:
Originally Posted by sirDarts
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07-09-2015, 06:54 PMNoira
I play all jobs I don't have a main but I do play the jobs to the fullest. The increase is more with it on than off.
All this salt because you guys don't want to adapt. -
07-09-2015, 07:02 PMFateAudaxYou can't taste the salt because it's not affecting the class you are playing the most and you have no right to pass it off as we don't want to adapt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noira
Stop being sanctimonious just because you aren't affected. -
07-09-2015, 07:10 PMAnnietheCat
It's not a matter of not wanting adapt. Many of have tried it, and many of us are good at it. It's not hard to do. Our ability to adapt isn't the problem. We aren't being lazy, we aren't being bad players. The problem is that this is a completely different play style, and one we didn't choose. Yeah, the cast times are quick. But If we wanted cast times at all, we would have went with a mage class. Except we didn't. Many of us absolutely, without a doubt wanted a ranged physical dps class. That's all we're saying. It's a matter of "we tried this, we learned it, and it is a play style we don't like". Many of us have been playing bard for a year or more. Many of us were happy with our old play style. Our run and gun style hurt literally no one and it wasn't a problem. But now that we say this isn't a play style we like, everyone is telling us to suck it up because we don't need the mobility. That's why people are complaining.
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07-09-2015, 07:11 PMNoira
LOL no I just don't pretend like changes aren't coming to a job.
Each class requires skill and planning now, bard is no different.
Stop complaining because you thought it wouldn't be touched.
I happen to enjoy the changes made to Bard and plan to finish it to 60 and raid with it. -
07-09-2015, 07:17 PMFateAudaxCurrently, amongst the 2.0 jobs which got hit the hardest is Bard, and we got hit with a cast bar. If it was some melee class who got hit with a cast bar, I wonder if people will be starting threads and be like "yea, it's fine. Melee with cast bar is like totally normal. We'll just learn to adapt.", "Thanks Yoshi.P! Totally love my new melee class with them cast bar. Now we're real melee."Quote:
Originally Posted by Noira
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07-09-2015, 07:23 PMAnnietheCat
I've already mentioned how bard players are split on what they want to see from the job itself. No one thought it wouldn't be touched. We didn't think we'd have our play style ripped from us and forced to be a bow mage. It's cool you enjoy the changes. I'm glad someone does, because the devs worked really hard on it. But many people still hate it. This is one of those times when Yoshi-P's time in other MMOs is going to be harmful to us because with how split players are over our new changes, this game could benefit from the addition of specialization. As much as I dislike both SWTOR and WoW, the way they handle jobs and the freedom of choice is something they both do right. The people who enjoy the changes aren't the problem. But pretending we all have to like them because half of the career bards like them is a problem. If there was a choice between WM and something else, fine. But at this point we're forced into a play style that many of us hate. Not all, just many.
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07-09-2015, 07:31 PMlordjoosieUnlike a lot of folks, for me it's not at all about not liking the changes. I can play the job either way and be fine. It's about balance. The roles are supposed to be balanced. This isn't a wish of mine. It's a stated goal of the designers of the game. Every healer class should heal/support the party equally, every tank class should be equally useful to a party. And every DPS class should provide the same damage to a party whether it be by straight damage, or it's own damage combined with added damage for the party through abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noira
Bard currently, no matter how it is played, does not, so it needs to be adjusted. They didn't make these changes because they thought bard wasn't difficult enough to play. They thought it would balance the job. It has not. -
07-09-2015, 08:38 PMcodofwisdomCorrect. I see some trying to deny it, but it's true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noira
Yes, some of us wish that Bard wasn't changed so drastically. Yes, some of us think that the changes are for the worse.
But to me, all of it is salt, salt, salt.
"We're no longer Mobile! We have to hold still to cast!"
We give up a second, a SECOND of movement, to hit for 30% more. Going to get hit? Cancel the animation, and use Bloodletter. Unless there's a hazard, you were holding still anyway. When there's about a quarter of a second left on the timer, you can move and STILL get the attack off. Your mobility is not gone. You're just annoyed that you have to make a choice.
"We have a cast timer!"
So the initial attack is delayed by a second. You start up the next attack as soon as the last one hits, and you'll probably notice how the cast timer and the CD on skills are practically the same. So the cast time basically negates the CD for the next attack.
"They changed my class!"
They've evolved our class. I'm sorry, I've only been playing a couple of months, but I'm pretty sure that if I played the same class for a couple of years, I'd be sick of it. Now, you have a fresh class to master. It feels like we're complaining about having to practice, and get better.
We would have complained if Bards didn't change. We complained because it did change. We complained that SE spent so much time developing our class in HW, that they changed the Play-style itself. -
07-09-2015, 09:50 PMRiceisNiceEvery other class gets something that adds onto what they can already do, or improve on their previous short comings. Bard (and BLM from what I hear) get something that changes their gameplay drastically from how it was level 50. The casting time alone is cumbersome when it comes to bloodletter procs and their 4 different oGCDs. It's frustrating to see my bloodletter reset twice in the middle of a heavy shot cast, and when I see straighter shot proc halfway into my next heavy shot. BLMs on the otherhand don't find a reason to fit in thunder because enochian is straight up more efficent use of their GCDs, but that's just hearsay on my endQuote:
Originally Posted by codofwisdom
It's not even a matter of adapting because machinist with GB plays more-or-less the same in regards to cast times, having oGCD abilties and waiting on procs. I just happen to enjoy the latter more because their toolkit was designed around with it in mind (like their shots having shorter animations so you can see procs even within a 1-GCD window) and I'm not helplessly watch my procs go to waste because it happened half way into my .75 second cast.
Could they have not added abilities to bard that expanded upon their gameplay from 2.0, and keep machinist the way it is? The way I see it, it's a bard trying to do what machinist does, but stumbling because the class originally was not designed with cast times in mind, causing clipping with their procs. I can't even come up with examples to get my point across toward other classes because none of them plays like Bard to make a reasonable comparison to how they've changed. -
07-09-2015, 10:08 PMRafaelhades
They could swap Emp arrow and Sidewinder in WM. Emp arrow only useable in WM and make crits reset cd on Emp arrow, making it the Bloodletter while WM is active, while Sidewinder can be used out of WM to allow for better burst while on the move on top of BL resets. This way, people won't have to worry about BL resets while turreting. BRD 3.0 isn't as fluid as 2.0.
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07-09-2015, 11:05 PMChairman_MeowA second and a half... depending on lag. You're telling me you have to stand still for 1.25 seconds and our mobility isnt "gone". That's like saying BLM has mobility because they can move in between casts. Forced to having to stand still means our mobility is gone. And the issue isn't so much the mobility as it is we're getting very little return from it. Sure 30% sounds like a lot on paper but in practice it's still trash.Quote:
Originally Posted by codofwisdom
The issue isn't having a cast time. The issue stems from having a cast time. Which is being forced to stand still on a mobile class. And still doing trash dps. We're trading off mobility for a little less trash dps. It's still trash dps. And don't give me that "oh bards can do 1k dps parse". That only happens under 2 conditions. Multiple target dotting or during your opening. When other classes can pull the same and more dps than your multi-target dotting on a single target then there's where the balance starts to break.Quote:
Originally Posted by codofwisdom
People play the same class for a couple of years because that's the play-style they want to play. If they were sick of it they could just switch to the other 12 classes to play. If they wanted to play a class that stands still and cast-bar-galore then they would just play BLM. It's that simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by codofwisdom
I had the same mindset as you did when they first announced the change. But I decided to make my final judgement after I hit 60 and did a few runs with it. Overall it wasn't worth it. Bards were still better off not using Minuet and only using Sidewinder from their new skills. And now that they nerfed SW... I'll be leveling up my Ninja. -
07-10-2015, 12:02 AMStrejdaTom
I am probably just plain bad or I dont know. I have been playing BRD since 2013. ATM got iLVL 183 but I still do more DPS without WM even if I almost dont move and use it only for the non-mobile fight phases.
So far the only good use of WM (atleast for me) is for aoe.
For me the 30% DPS boost just dont compare with no AA, no movement, nerfed new skills (with so called "fix") and no ability to weave more off GCDs like a baws.
Yeah and I am not even stating my utter disappointment and disgust with our new "support" skill which I wasnt able to use a single time since I got it. -
07-10-2015, 01:58 AMmb52139A good assumption, but.. I never played wow. The gameplay of bard simply drew me in, and I enjoyed the mobile nature of the class. Its so easy to judge something when you are on the outside looking in, aint it? Just don't make stupid assumptions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krissey
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07-10-2015, 02:04 AMKuraran
Just a little story from personal experience and how i feel/felt about using WM~
Enjoy reading if you even take your time to read this :3
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As someone who switched from Monk to Bard pre-expansion, having just 2-3 weeks to adjust to the job and playstyle, I should probably be feeling salttier than I actually am.
Having no steady rotation where I just have to press buttons 1-2-3 in order, but a more or less priority system of when to use which skill was already a adjustment I had to make to the playstyle I learned before. Having to watch out for the MP/TP of your members to know when you should play your songs was a bit frustrating at first, since I always forgot to switch the song on or off after I activated it, but I somehow managed to adjust to this as well.
When I first saw the new skills for Bards in that one LL, where they showed them off, I wasn't really thrilled with having a cast timer on my skills since I hate playing Casters and I also knew, that with all the new things I had to look out for, things would get pretty confusing for me since I would've to watch out for when to move without breaking my cast (while trying to look out for mechanics of course) and weaving abilities wouldn't feel the same as before.
After seeing the descriptions for these new abilities, I already felt like "Well, just having all of that mobility and running around will probably still be better." Since I still had (and still have but not as much) that feeling of playing like a Melee-DPS inside of me.
When the expansion hit the servers and I was climbing up to 60 slowly but steadily, I already noticed that I really didn't like using WM just because of those cast timers and how confused I actually got with the priority system while watching out for mechanics and all that stuff (did I already mention that I hate playing as a Caster?). I really denied adjusting to that one Skill.
I also did tests comparing WM vs no WM, and there really wasn't that much of a diffrence for me personally in DPS so I decided not using it at all.
Now post 3.01, I did those same DPS tests again and the DPS with WM was definitely better but I still tried to deny using WM for content, since I really couldn't imagine adjusting to it that well.
So my Raid naturally decided to go do Alexander of course and I never used WM when we tried all those boss fights for the first time. I compared my DPS to that of the other DPS in the group and I really felt frustrated, that I did so much less damage than them, so I finally decided to give WM while we farmed A4 for those tokens.
As expected, I really had my problems adjusting to playing with WM on. I'd sometimes ignore mechanics, sometimes not but instead would break the cast of a skill I almost finished casting and stuff like that.
I somehow managed to deal more DPS than with no WM but it was still pretty low compared to the other DPS. Try after try though, I adjusted more and more and also took more notice of my surroundings. I knew when I could avoid mechanics without breaking my cast, I started to move more in between casts and didn't feel hesitant about doing so anymore and my DPS also got better until I reached the point, where I was finally on par with our other Casters DPS. And I seriously felt happy about that.
Then we started to farm A3 for Tokens and I started to feel frustrated again. Other mechanics, other things to watch out for, the same mistakes I made when I started using WM for the first time but not as much, and lower DPS than all the other DPS yet again.
After some tries and even more adjusting, I managed to do the same as in A4 and raise my DPS to the same level as our Caster or sometimes even be above him, so I felt happy again.
When we started to farm A1 I wasn't really ssure how I'd do but I somehow managed to do pretty well from the beginning on while WM was turned on, when compared to the other turns. I also managed to be on par with most other DPS in our group for this turn. Because of this, our Monk decided to switch to Dragoon for some tries, just to see how far I could push my DPS.... and I somehow managed to be top DPS for most of those tries and I was really surprised and also happy again ^-^
After going through all of this, I don't really hate playing as a Caster as much as before and I also don't mind using WM in the slightest, since I've somehow managed to adjust to it pretty fast in a short amount of time.
**********
Well yeah... long story short:
After starting to get into this "Caster-Feel" and also a feel for WM, I started to like it way more.
I can still understand the saltyness of others but if you don't even try to adjust to the skill then you shouldn't really complain about it.
I also think that some adjustments to make WM even more useful should be made, but not necessesarily those that'll make you "always" be on par with other DPS ignoring diffrent situations.
Some weird ideas I've had that would be "nice to have":
1. A damage buff of X% you gain while you're in WM and Battle Voice is active (been thinking of 5-10% here.... 10% might be too much though)
2. A damage buff of X%*X while Battle Voice is active (X representing the number of active Songs you're playing, which would be either 1 or 2 with WM on in this case. Also been thinking of 5% here)
Why did I have these ideas? Well... WM is still a song that you need to play to increase your damage. It doesn't drain mana like the other songs but it still is a song. So I've been thinking "Why not let it benefit from Battle Voice somehow as well, even if it's just a minor damage increase?"
Like I already said, that's just me having some weird ideas though and might be a bit too much to ask for~ -
07-10-2015, 01:07 PMAnnietheCat
That's the thing I keep saying. This isn't a matter of not wanting to adapt. We have all tried this new skill. Many of the complaints are "THIS IS NOT A PLAY STYLE I SIGNED UP TO PLAY". That's it. Many(since I know not all, I'm sticking with my usual 'many') of us do not like caster classes. We don't like cast bars. And we don't want to be turrets. Bard was originally the most freeing job I've played in this whole game. Every other job is far to rigid, in my opinion. I, and many others, enjoyed the freedom of being able to move as we please and we accepted the less dps as a part of that. There seems to be a lot of "well I tried and liked it, so everyone else should just stop whining!" going on in this thread. Everyone is paying for this game, and everyone's opinion matters because of that. And if many of us like it and many of us hate it, the obvious solution is some compromise so that all of the paying players can be happy with what they pay to play.
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07-10-2015, 02:14 PMSendohJinyou're playing the wrong game. in FF14 when you start to feel like you might get sick of a class you change your weapon and you play a different one.Quote:
Originally Posted by codofwisdom
the problem is when i change from my BLM Staff to a Bow, i don't feel like i'm playing a different class, just an inferior one, that's what makes us sick. -
07-10-2015, 04:26 PMnuyu11This is how I feel.Quote:
Originally Posted by StrejdaTom
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07-11-2015, 03:03 AMBlurtedNonsense
Even when SE has increased my DPS by 100 - 200. It still doesn't let me join a PF for Alex runs, and the new Ex. I have yet been able to join a Bismark ex due to the stigma that MCH still has. This discrimination is baffling, especially since I managed to get my DPS up close to other DPS jobs with doing 6k+ wildfire damage. That's a very noticeable hit to a boss. So, why the hell am I treated like the fat kid getting picked last at a ball game? It's bullshit!
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07-11-2015, 03:04 AMBlurtedNonsense
Also to those MCH complaining about being a stuck caster doing shit DPS like as if SE didn't update the job, obviously is not playing their jobs right. You can still move around with GB if you use your skills right. Firstly with rapid fire and procced skills require no cast time. I can go a whole rotation with only one cast bar popping up while having GB on and doing good DPS.the only time my DPS drops is after two rotations and my shit is on cool down and encounter the almighty RNGesus with no procs but most of the time I'm pretty lucky and time my abilities just right.
Moral of the story...learn your job! You're making us look worse than we are. -
07-11-2015, 03:48 AMGaldous
Sigh. I wish SE would take these boards down. Taking feedback from people is fine and dandy until you realize 90% of them just are focusing on wanting the job they play most to be OP over other jobs just for the sake of being overpowered. Bards are pulling 800 dps at 175 and bursting 1400 so I do not know what the fuss is about. And as the above poster stated machinist if they use rapid fire right and learn proper timing you have plenty of movement with gauss.
Seems people's view is unless a job does the best dps with forgiving mechanics then its messed up and will be dead weight in raids. As Marie-Antoinette stated let them eat cake. -
07-11-2015, 03:55 AMMikedizzy
I don't really know where to start but I have been playing Bard since Beta and the changes are great and dps is fine. You can still do over 1k dps on most floors of Alex, go check some of the good bards in hard core raiding statics. Some Bardz I am sorry to say but need to learn how to play the job. I am not one of the best but I can easily burst at over 14k and then level out over 1000 over 4 minutes. How is this shit dps? It is great considering what we bring to the Raid. Bardz are still wanted and the "good" raid groups all have one. It's the small group out there in PF that think they are the shit and need to stop it already. We are good flow Bards...we are good.