Personally I think the best way to ease the tedium of the msq is a better use of the linkpearl Minfillia gave you. Instead of just her/others telling you to return to the Waking Sands/Revenant Toll they could just complete the quest over that and send you on your way from there.
Swtor did it with the Holocoms and WoW added in the remote quest turn in. At least like SWTOR, FF14 has a lore reason why you're getting a call from halfway across the continent.
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06-23-2015, 07:54 AMLinadae
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06-23-2015, 07:58 AMIsondreI feel like a lot of the people who are saying "just enjoy it, it's good for you filthy casuals" have not tried leveling a new character recently.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasamuneBranford
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06-23-2015, 08:03 AMIsondreOh my god, this. Please just let me get to 50 if I've already completed the MSQ once. I know, I know, "Why do you need a second character." But I'm a roleplayer. Alts are my playstyle, I like having a skinny Elezen thaumaturge and a beefy Roe warrior, not one character that does everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qaaliaa
Please don't punish me this much for the way I like to play the game. -
06-23-2015, 08:07 AMIsondreIt's not the level that's the problem. Getting to 50 was easy; grinding 3 billion boring fetch quests is what is making me want to shoot myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edellis
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06-23-2015, 08:09 AMDkDerek
Honestly? It's laughable. I love this game, don't get me wrong...but if I was new, there would be absolutely no way that I would continue playing after I hit level 50. Not only do you have days of quests (that give literally no reward), to do, but you actually have to gear to ilvl 90 for the trial before HW. You are forced to grind out gear, that is 100% irrelevant. This is 2015. This isn't EQ days. MMO's have been around for a long time at this point, and it's time for developers to evolve. Not go back to what made EQ a great game. The days of grinding need to come to an end. It's not fun. When a grind is finished, you feel the thrill for a total of 15 seconds. I hit level 60 today, and when I should have been completely thrilled, I just moved on to the next thing.
Being forced to do something is bad design. The more subs FFXIV gets, the more content we should receive. Let's try and dethrone WoW. Change this please. -
06-23-2015, 08:16 AMCaptainMiles
This is a great idea. I would suggest cutting out all the fluff quests and just have people do the battle that are needed. There is definitely room for trimming.
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06-23-2015, 08:16 AMDkDerek
It even goes beyond the useless quests though. If you have 4 hours to play after work (which I would say is even above average), and you are on a story quest that involved a dungeon. You better hope you have a friend playing a tank or a healer. As we speak I've been in queue for a story-line dungeon for 67 minutes.
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06-23-2015, 08:33 AMAltanasThat's how Minfillia did it in version 1 actually. It was actually pretty neat seeing NPCs use their linkpearls =)Quote:
Originally Posted by Linadae
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06-23-2015, 08:38 AMAnaviAnael
As much as I talked about being for the HW content being gated behind the MSQ, I also have to agree with abridging the ARR quests. I get why a lot of them were there; the filler quests aided in giving exp for the next level. However, with the new exp bonuses they're giving, it's hardly necessary anymore. Nobody would notice if they took out a fetch quest to bring soldiers some tea.
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06-23-2015, 09:17 AMRichardButteNo, I mean the part where it's actually interesting and gets to the point rather quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luvbunny
Yes, quests send you places and have you click on stuff, but there's a massive difference between doing it for a bit and doing it for a hours and hours on end.
More ACTUAL story happens in the first 5 MSQs in HW than in 30 of those at the 50 MSQ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luvbunny
No one is advocating NOT doing those. Are you reading anything that people are saying to you or are you just rampantly apologizing for horrible quest design?
Look, I've lost friends to how much of a horrendous grind the story quest is in this game, as have NUMEROUS other people, and these are people who have played MMOs for years and can handle a bit of grind. The story quest grind is just THAT bad by comparison...
And looking over this thread, I am FAR from the only one who has had this experience.
That's money walking out the door, and it DOESN'T HAVE TO BE! It's perfectly possible to preserve the integrity of XIV's storyline while also not drowning players in it. -
06-23-2015, 10:04 AMFatestorm
No flame here, but I would be a voice asking S-E to NOT change the Main Story quest or abridge it in any way. It's still a RPG, and while different stages of the Main Story have different strengths, I don't think of any of it as filler. That's just my opinion, but by the way all the story is linked together, I think it should be maintained in its integrity.
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06-23-2015, 10:23 AMRichardButteNothing about this would violate the integrity of the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatestorm
The story would remain the same whether you see it through handing out every uniform yourself or through a narrative summary. -
06-23-2015, 10:56 AMOnikimaru
This is an excellent idea. Signed!
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06-23-2015, 12:34 PMTenku
I agree with almost everything everyone in this thread says. To summarize:
Content gating is going to drive a lot of players away.
Stop wasting our time with fillers that requires you to run or teleport all over the place just to unlock content. -
06-23-2015, 04:17 PMAeryx_Seven
I fully support this. I have a handful of friends that stopped playing after hitting 50 in 2.0. They came back a few weeks before early access to a mountain of mind numbingly boring and tedious story quests. There are so many pointless "run here, run there, come back!" quests that could be cut out. Thankfully it seems that 3.0 going forward has a lot less errand boy quests. I'm supposed to be the Warrior of Light, not a glorified grocery getter.
In the slog to get through the 2.1 - 2.5 story, most of my friends quit before the 19th. They aren't the first, and won't be the last. -
06-23-2015, 04:21 PMFoxyAreku
It's only going to get worse too...
You know what I think would be good? After one beats Praetorium, cut out the story from king moggle mog to Shiva and make all that 'optional plot', just have them go through the important bits like forming the Crystal Braves and all that.
Though, it may be hard to make work since the Scions go missing...I'm sure they could think of something. -
06-23-2015, 04:26 PMKaedrianLiangI think this can all be solved with full VA dialogue from start to finish.Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardButte
Reading can be very boring, some people read to help them fall asleep!
However put a voice behind the dialogue, and the story is simply that much more engaging to a wider audience. -
06-23-2015, 04:29 PMNyaria
So, I would like to pipe in here.
As a brand-spanking new level 50, about a week before the expansion's early access launched, I had to go through all the level 50 story missions to be able to get into the heavensward early access (Loving it, 1.1m exp from 60 before the servers dropped).
I have to say, from a brand new players perspective going through the level 50 Story mission is a bit disconnected, you have months and years of patches and pauses and waits, that you just don't get (And according to my FC members, all the mentions towards revenants toll getting updated we never get to see) honestly, the level 50 story missions was literally a grind, a very long, tedious grind that I feel suffered in the end for it's story about halfway to the later half, I found myself just not CARING as much about what was going on, because all of it was all smashed together one-after another, I think about the 60-85% marks outside of the primal fights / trials I literally remember nothing of because at that point, I've been stuck on these long quest chains for quite literally 3 days, (Not counting having to literally sit and wait a few times while grinding gear to get the item levels for some of the later portions that many people had months to grind for).
It just damages the story and I love the story. Though, I have literally no idea what time has passed and when during the story due to it all chaining together, I know ARR lasted a LONG time and lots of patches seperated all the story, so the revisits felt genuine, but for someone just chaining them at 50, you lose all sense of time and direction, as the game literally tells you nothing, and just moves on, making references to changes you can't see in real time, and references to 'Time has passed" but not to how much.
I totally understand Square wanting people to see all of the story though, it's important to know how things went back there, and to jump from level 49 to ishgard is a great disservice to the story, I don't know exactly how they could abridge the content though, if they just remove requirements it feels cheapened because you didn't actually do all this, and leaving it all in makes things tedious. This is sort of a unique situation I've never seen in another MMO before, so I can't give an honest opinion on how to fix it, but simply give an example of my experience.
I hope it is somewhat helpful? :\ -
06-23-2015, 04:59 PMshinros
I agree they should cut down on the fetch quests. I done them before early access and the fetch quests were mind numbing I recall the quest I got from tataru to find TEA! Yes finding TEA is a main story quest. Cut that rubbish out or heck use the linkpearl when they keep asking you go back between npcs from rising stones.
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06-23-2015, 05:22 PMAkuliousWait so you think buying a guy lentil soup with chestnuts is vital to the storyline? Really? Like for real?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatestorm
WOW. That's some integrity. -
06-23-2015, 07:54 PMVoltyblast
It's understandable that story in this game is important and that some people are concerned about keeping it integral. But at the same time, let's not forget that this is also an MMO: story alone is not enough to carry the game and it should be built around the gameplay first in order to accomodate all tastes.
Heck, even some single player RPGs are built around gameplay first so that even if the story is forgettable, you still get a good game to play!
Ishgard has no reason to open up? Make one: we didn't need to reach the original ninja's place (Doma was it?) to get their class because it had a good reason behind it and it was also a story that I liked to follow, and I'm sure they could've made up something for the new jobs as well.
Is it necessary to view the story of 2.0 to fully understand 3.0 story? Make us want it, maybe with some unique rewards (and maybe put some more voice acting?) but without actually forcing us to do it just to reach the expansion: making it an option might actually make some players genuinely interested to follow it all, and if they don't care they still got their game to play and their jobs to get. -
06-23-2015, 08:34 PMToniRomo
I recently came back. I cleared all the original 2.0 story, but did not play any of the patches. I am trying to catch up to play with friends, but all the story line quests just have me porting around for boring conversations with NPCs. I am losing interest.
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06-23-2015, 10:26 PMmicropanther7I'm stuck at this trial as well, I don't mind having to run dungeons for the MSQ, I'm having to use the DF (no FC, long story, else I'd have gone with them), but it's really frustrating when people struggle with certain aspects. Like not stacking for heals, not using defensive cooldowns etc, I fluffed up as well a fair few times myself on not soaking meteors (is the healer supposed to do that? just wondering.... ) just have to keep trying I guess! *sighs*Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltyblast
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06-23-2015, 10:43 PMCosmicOwlI knocked out The Chrysalis this past weekend on my marathon to unlocking HW content. It wasn't too bad, and I ran it as a DRG at like i70 or i80...Quote:
Originally Posted by micropanther7
To answer your question, from the video I watched and my run both tanks should soak up the meteors, while DPS prepare to burn down The Rift. I didn't read, see, or hear about healers taking that on- best of luck on your impending clear! -
06-23-2015, 10:44 PMFoxyAreku
I don't see a point in lowering the quests from 1 to 50, as lowering them would reduce the amount of XP you get and people would just have to grind anyway. >_>
The problem is the entire level 50 storyline imo, that's what should be cut down. -
06-23-2015, 10:47 PMAylinI have no problem running through old quests to catch up with story line. Its just so... tedious. I had to pick up at Moggle Mog when I came back last week, and it feels like it's a lifetime to get caught up.Quote:
Originally Posted by ToniRomo
Aside, trying to get all this expeditiously has made me really dislike Minifilia. Chica needs to get off her rear and do something, instead of sending the freaking Warrior of Light on fetch quests while she sits in Mor Dhona contemplating her navel. But that's a rant for another day... ;) -
06-23-2015, 11:13 PModintius
I've soaked a couple as healer it situational really, generally during this phase before we get sucked in, I stick close to a tank that way I can pop quick cast, divine seal, media II and put regens on tanks, also if need be a benediction to quickly get one back up if to low to take another shot quickly. Tanks should know what to do to lessen the damage for there part if not using those said abilities there not doing it right.
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06-23-2015, 11:50 PMAtrayl
I finished the final pre-expansion MSQ Wednesday night before early access. If I didn't make it, I was going to cancel my account and finally get around to playing The Witcher 3 instead.
SE almost lost my subscription, and for what? The only answer at this point is arrogance. The arrogance that your story is amazing and that everyone needs to see it. This can also be seen with the current terribleness of FATE experience rewards. "We can't have people grinding FATEs, they've got to see this story!"
I do not like Final Fantasy. I'm sorry, but I do not. I like MMOs. I do not like Warcraft, Warhammer, or whatever story RIFT had. I do like Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, and I'm a middle-of-the-road Elder Scrolls fan. I've played all of these games for the game. It's nice when I like the story, but it shouldn't be a requirement. -
06-24-2015, 02:17 AMRichardButteIt certainly is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyaria
Every additional person who chimes in will help SE to understand that they really ought to fix this.
It's costing them subs, and I thought it might've just been isolated to my friends but that's clearly not the case now. If just this small of a sample has this many people complaining of similar issues, then this is a bigger issue that definitely needs to be addressed. -
06-24-2015, 02:43 AMKisaiTenshiYou are playing the wrong game then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atrayl
Here's a counter argument:
I play games for the story, and hope the gameplay is constructive in achieving that story.
Early CRPG's (Eg Wizardry and Ultima) were super-light on story, but the story was there. This is what Final Fantasy's game mechanics originate from. The Ultima games were extremely open-ended in that you could pretty much forget the story was there, but you can't finish the game without actually hitting all the storyline flags.
The story is a requirement. If you think the story is bad, then you are wasting your time playing this game. The other games you mentioned, Star Wars, LOTR, and TESO have their own storyline requirements as well. But overall, the grungy ugly Western MMO's aren't worth playing for people who like the Asian style MMORPG's.
FFXIV is the only MMORPG that reasonably has elements of everything I like in MMORPG's. The only thing I find it's not great at is it's lack of "open-world"-ness. There has not been a FF game, or any MMORPG really that has been open world enough to enjoy exploring beyond just unlocking the map.
"Minecraft" moved the goal posts on what it means to have an open-ended exploreable world, but THAT game has ZERO story. Algorithm-determined landscapes, no plate-tectonics, no vulcanism, no hydrology, no ancient ruins. Just a random seed determines what the world looks like. I find that concept incredibly boring, but this is what you are asking for when you want a game with no story. -
06-24-2015, 02:51 AMSouljacker
No one is arguing to drop the storyline entirely - just trim it out a bit. They could get rid of 50% (maybe more) that is just fluff and everyone would still know what was going on when they hit heavensward.
Try this exercise. Try to remember all the quests you did for the MSQ. How many can you remember? Here's the answer: the 50% of the impactful ones that moved the story along. There are 346 quests in the main storyline and I will not believe anyone (aside eidetic memory) who says they remember every single one of them. They added filler for grind purposes and artificially inflate time it takes to complete, but now we are in new xpac - for what reason hold on to the old? -
06-24-2015, 03:00 AMRichardButteUltimately, the gameplay still has to carry itself (and it does), but the problem isn't that the story is bad or that we don't like story.Quote:
Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi
The problem is that most of the level 50 main story quest has no story involved with it and was just filler to keep us busy, and this cumulative filler is literally capable of driving players away from the game. -
06-24-2015, 03:03 AMStrejdaTom
It would require some time but I guess it will be neccessary one day anyways to get rid of the MSQ filler quests.
I think it would be nice if the game asked on the beginning if the person wants to encounter whole MSQ or Filler-less MSQ.
.. But I am definitely against the idea of not having to do MSQ at all. :) -
06-24-2015, 03:33 AMAyuhra
If anything they need to just trim down on the post 50 quests. Some of those were fantastic, an overwhelming number were just scuttling around doing chores. Fine for when you are still in ARR, less fine if those chores are keeping you from your friends and more leveling content.
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06-24-2015, 03:39 AMAtrayl
If the MSQ was not required to do dungeons and raids, and was not required to access the expansion, would you quit the game? If you didn't play the game, and someone told you that the story content was there, but optional, would you decide not to play the game because of that?
I highly doubt the honest answer to either of these questions is "yes."
And yet, the opposite is not true. There are many people who will quit the game out of frustration stemming from the MSQ grind. There are many people who will dismiss the game after being told they will need to do 30+ hours of mostly fetch quests before they get to start the 20+ hours of mostly fetch quests in the expansion before they get to do end game content.
What is the benefit of forcing everyone to do the main story quests? It certainly doesn't make more people understand the world and the story. I skip everything and I honestly have no idea who any of the characters are outside of their appearance. I don't know why we're going to Ishgard. I don't care. Forcing me to do tedious fetch quests will not make me understand or care about the story that I don't want to experience in the first place.
What's the point? How will it hurt you, if you enjoy the story, for it to be made optional? -
06-24-2015, 04:34 AMTuathaaI hate to say because I know I am going to get flamed but that attitude would only help to increase subs and attract more people away from other mmo'sQuote:
Originally Posted by Atrayl
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06-24-2015, 04:46 AMVoltyblastWhat if the story is bad then?Quote:
Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi
Just because it's a Final Fantasy it doesn't mean that they can get away with that: the latest Final Fantasy games proved how much that gameplay is important rather than story telling, especially ARR which alone is a living proof that story alone cannot guarantee a fun game and that gameplay is required to make a game actually fun to play.
I have heard people liking the story of 1.0 and all of my friends pretty much agrees that the story was better (I never played 1.0 so I can't judge), but here we are into an expansion of a complete rebuilt game because the game was now fun to play again and people really liked the new changes.
And I think that the story isn't the main reason for its success. Or at least not entirely.
However I won't say that a story can't be done: some people like it and some people don't (I'm in this category), but just because some don't like it doesn't mean "it's the wrong game for them": I like some RPGs even if their stories are bad but it doesn't mean it's not for me. I just focus on other aspect of the game rather the story.
And as far as I know, the main story isn't the only aspect to enjoy from this game. -
06-24-2015, 04:49 AMRichardButteThe only hurt may be butthurt from lore snobs, but I see 0 actual harm in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atrayl
This is why FFXIV could benefit immensely from a "When last we left the warrior of light..." kind of recap every so often. -
06-24-2015, 04:56 AMAyrie
All I can hear in this thread is: "Mom! More cheesy-poofs!"
Ya'll want DRK now, but don't want to do the same work everyone else did to get it. Feels like you want us punished for being existing, faithful, customers.
Look at it from that side... Then realize dork knight is still there waiting for you. I promise, its not going anywhere.
The MSQ post 2.0 is tedious and redundant in the running in a circle aspect... But they are just warming you up for Dravania... That place... *shudder* -
06-24-2015, 05:10 AMKisaiTenshiIf the story content is optional, then people wouldn't play it for more than a few hours. They would play it just long enough to get to the logical end of killing the hardest monster... forget about the dungeons and raids.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atrayl
Part of the game's design is that the entire point of doing the dungeons in the first place is that something in the storyline requires it. If you skipped everything, that is your loss. The storyline content has to be weaved in with gatekeeping the content to keep people from just grinding in one place.
If you notice, the average dungeon only needs to be run 3 times to level out of it so you can play the next one. Once you unlock everything, you can play any other job/class and not have to unlock them again. IN OTHER GAMES YOU HAVE TO CREATE A NEW CHARACTER AND UNLOCK ALL THAT STUFF AGAIN. So instead of complaining that you have to unlock this stuff at all, look at how the armory system removes the need to do all the main storyline 12 times.
But again, in some other games, the ability to actually play all the dungeons is available at level 1, but people just grind on the one dungeon that is the most experience efficient and ignore everything else. And for what? Get to the maximum level and then ... grind a new character?
In other games player typically won't do content that isn't required. Such is the case with Crystal Tower and The Binding Coil of Bahamut, and the Extreme Primals. In FFXIV this content is "hard" content. The fact that DPS have such long queues for any dungeon is indicative how much content players are NOT participating in. The fact that it can take 2 hours to get a DF PUG for these hard parts of the game tells me that you're barking up the wrong tree, and making the storyline optional would just have people do the dungeon content once to clear it and then never again unless they want the full gear collection from that dungeon or are trying to do the relic weapon quests.