Holy and Flare diminishing returns nerf

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Originally Posted by Fatshine

I knew the official forums would errupt in rage and tears lol, but you all know your asses will be sitting in that chair come Friday to play Heavensward.

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I don't recall anyone threatening to quit. If anything I can play tablet games while healing now since I'll just be using regen and the occasional cure spell. Doesn't bother me at all. End result is that dungeons will take longer regardless of class composition, so seeing that WHM or BLM icon means you won't be finishing any faster. High single target dps classes will not suddenly become viable at aoe because the aoe classes were nerfed.

So the intentions of this nerf are entirely unclear since all it really bothers is mindless grindy repetitive content. It just becomes moreso for healers now. Chain pulling will still happen no matter what composition the party is as it always as, but since it is clear that SE would rather healers just stand there I certainly don't mind doing it.

If You Look At The Buffs To Drg AND Drg aoe, BLMs will be dethroned Very easily.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Your math is very wrong.

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Meant base skill potency since whm doesn't have the multiplier associated to astral fire.

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Originally Posted by mp-please

Meant base skill potency since whm doesn't have the multiplier associated to astral fire.

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So, you meant to use a situation not at all representative of actual use? Okay, then.

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Originally Posted by Shamirah

They're buffing fire 2 to compensate, WHM gains tons of aoe damage.

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Eh... what? We've got Aero and Assize. One of those is on a 90s recast and the other is DoT which means, much like the annoying Summoner, everything takes longer to die ultimately. Honestly, I don't really care about the spell speed 'buff' since until I see some solid info on how much it affects DoT I'm going to assume it's minimalist at best. Ultimately, what it boils down to is how fast things die. A flat nuke deals damage in an instant, while DoT is the equivalent of giving them a papercut and hoping the infection kills them.

What annoys me more though, is that there's apparently no diminishing returns on anyone else's AoE. If Bards were affected by 10% damage reduction for each additional target, or Summoner's DoT was reduced by 10% potency per extra target, or even their new AoE skills were subject to the same changes I could consider it equal footing.

This just smacks of focusing solely on one form of gameplay. It's like they're trying to suck the fun out of the game by systematically removing anything we do to speed up dungeons we've run a billion times before.

Well clearly, this is why Yoshi brought up that "encounters are not balanced around Healer DPS" lol.

II am gutted at the Holy change, but oh well >.<

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Originally Posted by Kuurei

Well clearly, this is why Yoshi brought up that "encounters are not balanced around Healer DPS" lol.

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That doesn't explain why Flare was also nerfed to the ground. In fact, I daresay Flare is now not even worth its MP costs.

To be fair, flair really needed a nerf. Sure it was the only really fun spell for black mage but come on. It can be cast with barely any mana left and would still hit the same extreme ammount. That's just cheating.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

To be fair, flare really needed a nerf. Sure it was the only really fun spell for black mage but come on. It can be cast with barely any mana left and would still hit the same extreme amount. That's just cheating.

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It's cheating to cast an area effect nuke on a job which is dedicated to dealing damage? I hope you don't influence future updates, or I fear for my Hallowed Ground and Benediction skills.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

Sure it was the only really fun spell for black mage

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I've seen more than one BLM say this, and I can't wrap my mind around someone playing a job that literally only has one ability they love. Maybe it's a good thing this will anger some of them enough to try other classes/jobs, they may find one they actually like.

Finaly a step against those really annoying and fun-killing "Speed" runs!
I really hate them! D: <
People who had me in a -->random DF party<-- know I never Supported those kind of "runs"! >_>

I don't know what people are whinging about, I never use flare and still manage to top dps within WoD/trials/coil... As for Whm I have used holy to dd mobs and such, but I honestly think it needs this nerf, it becomes sad when a healer can out-dps the dd's...

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Originally Posted by Corfish

I've seen more than one BLM say this, and I can't wrap my mind around someone playing a job that literally only has one ability they love. Maybe it's a good thing this will anger some of them enough to try other classes/jobs, they may find one they actually like.

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It's mostly because BLM only uses a few hard hitting spells. So each one means a lot more.
But Flare dwarves the rest is shear visuals and then being a super aoe nuke as well. It's one of those things that exemplifies what it means it be a BLM.
Though it'll get nerfed, it's still a really strong. It's place in the rotation should stay about the same.
Just a big less dramatic when the mobs don't melt away.

On the other hand, those that played for Flare will be getting Fire IV.
Single target nuke that even looks like Flare, and it'll be used rotationally.
So they should be fine.

I also think saying stuff like that was precisely because everyone knows Flare is OP.
Maybe they'll appreciate the rest more now.

The nerfs are not as bad as some people are taking them to be. It is only a 25% decrease in damage to a group of 6 targets (Flare is 1170 potency total instead of 1560).

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

They are legit.

SE apparently real unhappy with speed pulls from Mages.

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yeah and instead of fixing how dungeons work in general and how boring it is to do the same, trash - boss - trash boss mechanic, they nerv...
The problem is the content not the jobs or the AOE. Also the need to run the same stuff all over again in expert or whatever roulettes etc. is encouraging this.
i still dont know why they didnt change that approach and instead just give us some more sneaky parts to maybe avoid mobs as well? that is def. more fun then just to kill all...
they also should involve more options questwise into dungeons, (ofc that only makes sense if a dungeon has more then 1 route and many sideways and extra rooms...

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

-snip-

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Alright Miss Negative Nancy. I went and bothered to get some hard theoretical numbers for you just to show just how far you're over-reacting and taking this circus show.

UNLIKELY SCENARIO WITH WHM PURE DPSING FOR 8 GCDS (ROUGHLY 25 SECONDS)

Let's use a most extreme form of trash pull that I have NOT seen in many dungeons save for a few. 3 sets of mobs strung together; let's place this at a total of 9 enemies.

Let's also use the HIGHLY unlikely scenario of a WHM not needing to heal between Holying, and also the UNLIKELY SCENARIO that a WHM can string together 8 GCDs worth of DPS without needing to heal or attend to other responsibilities.

Assumptions include the first Holy being swift-casted as well as Presence of Mind used after the first Holy.

PATCH 2.5

With the old rotation of just Holy Holy Holy spam, we're looking at 200 potency a Holy on each enemy, making each GCD 1800 potency worth. That means in 8 GCDs of nothing but Holy, that equates to 14400 total potency of damage dealt.


PATCH 3.0

Let us assume a new rotation for AoE as follows.

• Aero III
• Swiftcast Holy
• Holy
• Holy
• Holy
• Holy
• Holy
• Holy
• Assize

With the new abilities and Holy adjustments, any WHM worth their salt will put up Aero III first to ensure maximum uptime of the DoT on all 9 enemies. That means the first GCD is a 50 potency nuke, on 9 enemies; 450 potency on the 1st GCD.

2nd GCD is Swiftcast Holy, and the next 6 GCDs also Holy. Against 9 enemies, Holy will now do a total potency of 1200 per GCD. Total potency of Holy over the 7 GCDs; 8400 potency.

You're going to assume the spell speed buff is minimalist. I'm going to assume it's going to have some large impact considering they've been tooting about the spell/skill speed changes for a VERY long time. So I'm going to assume that every GCD, Aero III DoT will do 40 potency on each enemy, meaning each GCD after the 1st it'll do 360 potency. 7 GCDs of DoTs, the DoT damage will be 2520 potency.

And let's also not forget Assize. Slot it in after the Swiftcast Holy, or after all 8 GCDs, it doesn't matter. That's 300 potency per enemy, meaning a total of 2700 potency.

Let's add it up. 450 (Aero III Nuke) + 8400 (Holy Spam) + 2520 (Aero III DoT) + 2700 (Assize) = total potency of 14070.

14400 vs 14070 potency. Omfg, WHM now does 330 less potency in the unlikely scenario of 9 mobs over 8 GCDs without having to do my primary role (healing) and can pew pew as much as I want. I'M DOING 2% LESS DAMAGE. SO GAME BREAKING, PLEASE BUFF.

Seriously, that difference is so minimal and also in such a unlikely situation of a WHM pure DPSing that it's almost laughable you're throwing such an extreme tantrum over it.

Here's an excel sheet to back up my numbers. The top half is the hypothetical new ability rotation, the bottom is the 2.5 ability rotation. Note also that one seems to be much more engaging! I'm not just pressing one goddamn button over and over again! Wow! Mind blowing!

http://i.imgur.com/xwZS5QR.png


LIKELY SCENARIO OF WHM PURE DPSING FOR 8 GCDS (ROUGHLY 25 SECONDS)

Let's look at a more common scenario seen in most recent dungeon pulls. 2 sets of mobs, 3 mobs each; 6 mobs in total.

Let's continue using the HIGHLY unlikely scenario of a WHM not needing to heal between Holying, and also the UNLIKELY SCENARIO that a WHM can string together 8 GCDs worth of DPS without needing to heal or attend to other responsibilities.

Assumptions include the first Holy being swift-casted as well as Presence of Mind used after the first Holy.

PATCH 2.5

With the old rotation of just Holy Holy Holy spam, we're looking at 200 potency a Holy on each enemy, making each GCD 1200 potency worth. That means in 8 GCDs of nothing but Holy, that equates to 9600 total potency of damage dealt.

PATCH 3.0

Being consistent, let's assume the new WHM rotation is similar to the above.

Aero III nuke will now do 300 potency, with 6 enemies, on the 1st GCD.

Each Holy will now do 900 potency a GCD. 7 GCDs, so that makes it 6300 potency.

Now, I'm going to change things up. I'm going to give the Aero III DoT a VERY GENEROUS nerf because the spell speed changes are apparently going to be minimalist, yes? Each DoT will now do 33 potency per tick, or roughly 75% of the original Aero III tick. That means the Aero III Dot will now do 200 total potency a GCD. With 7 GCDs, that'll be 1400 potency.

And let's not forget lovely Assize. 300 potency times 6, 1800 potency.

The total? 300 + 6300 + 1500 + 1800. Total potency of 9800.

9600 vs 9800 potency. Oh, what is this, you mean in a likely scenario of 6 or less enemies, with a considerable nerf to the Aero III DoT, the new rotation will STILL DO MORE POTENCY? BLASPHEMY. SOMETHING MUST BE WRONG, TAKE IT BACK TO THE DRAWING OFFICE, SE. THAT 200 POTENCY IS TOO MUCH.

Again, I shall provide the calculations, similar to above. I even kindly used the same sheet as before, same formulaes, for consistency.

http://i.imgur.com/6VSaywl.png

FINAL VERDICT?

It's obvious that upon reaching larger number of enemies (we're talking 10+ mobs here), there is less potential DPS from WHM for AoE. But in a more reasonable environment of 3-6 mobs? WHM actually got a BOOST to it's AoE power.


So darling? You be overreacting. Take a chill pill.

Can someone who knows the f2 buff difference calc out what say 3 f2 casts increse in potency is now in HW? Which keep in mind does not decrease over #mobs. I have this odd feeling in the back of my brain that the change in potency will actually even out. I have a feeling that in large groups f2 will be more effective with flare becoming a finisher best used with 3 to 4 left in a group of say 6.

Can't edit from phone for some reason. On top of that remember as a Blm you will be juggling a timer with diminishing returns to max your time with f4. The changes to all classes I have seen lead me to believe encounters especially boss encounters will have hefty add phases. Why give e4e a way to spread? Why give plenty of aoe heals and aoe shields why give a way to heal others and mt with one cast? I don't expect HW to be as similar to ARR as people expect.

Holy should still work just wonderful on legitimate mob pulls. As a whm that LOVES to spam holy .. I have no problem with this whatsoever .. frankly huge dungeon pulls should have been giving a giant dmg bonus to all badguys to ensure they never could happen in the first place. However, I do thing that CC (Sleep and Repose) should have been a legitimate way to be able to bypass atleast some trash mobs. Kind of sad how they really have almost no use, cause when you REALLY need them, shit is immune to them lol

...lame nerf is all I got to say. I guess smn, drg, brd with a sch as a healer will be your dungeon speed runner classes now.

Here's a interesting question. Why bother making both magic aoe at all? Traditionally in FF they are both single target magic abilities.

https://youtu.be/EIG7VvngUK4?t=3m50s

Make up your damn mind Yoshida.

that's why I quit playing mages. SE seems to hate DoM for some reason.

in other MMOs, mages do highest damages because they have a trade off that they have the weakest defense, lowest HP, etc. In FFXIV mages are weak in defense and now will be weak in offense too.

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Originally Posted by tjw

So darling? You be overreacting. Take a chill pill.

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And yet all your calculations hinge on Assize, which is on a 90s recast and ultimately results in only a 200 potency boost? Remind me again, why I'm over-reacting?

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Originally Posted by Isius

...lame nerf is all I got to say. I guess smn, drg, brd with a sch as a healer will be your dungeon speed runner classes now.

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guess not... BLM and WHMs stille massive AoE Dealers...

they just even the odds a bit..

This is the same thing they did with the ga spells in FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

And yet all your calculations hinge on Assize, which is on a 90s recast and ultimately results in only a 200 potency boost? Remind me again, why I'm over-reacting?

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90 seconds isn't long. Why do people think 1.5 minutes of a cool down is exceedingly long?

Most of the time when we get to the next pull of trash, my swiftcast is already up. That's on a 60 second cooldown. 30 extra seconds apparently hurts you so much that you cry foul?

Yes, you are over-reacting. You're making out WHM to be as pathetic as MNK is at AoE.

Also, thanks for skipping over the Aero III DoT nerf I did. In a REAL scenario, the DoT will be doing a LOT more damage. Enough that if it was its full potency per GCD, it wouldn't be a 200 potency difference but a 500 potency difference.

In fact, Aero III almost makes up for the Holy nerf, if we limit mob count to 6. With the nerf, the current Holy will do 900 Potency a GCD, compared to 1200 potency of the previous Holy. Aero III's dot is 40 a tick, making a total of 240 potency. 1200 vs 1140. That's only a 60 potency difference, not including the initial Aero III nuke damage. Since you don't see 200 potency as anything big, what's 60 potency?

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

And yet all your calculations hinge on Assize, which is on a 90s recast and ultimately results in only a 200 potency boost? Remind me again, why I'm over-reacting?

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90s is only 1.5 minutes. So you should get it out once in any given aoe situation, which is what his calculation includes - just one use.
His example already favors the previous rotation due to the amount of mobs and how long it lasts.

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Originally Posted by wicked-one

guess not... BLM and WHMs stille massive AoE Dealers...

they just even the odds a bit..

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I just remember doing speed runs with my drg in Brayflox hm way back, since I didn't have a blm at the time, and they went pretty, fast speed-wise. Since then I can personally output more dps with my drg then my blm with around equal ilvls, but then again my blm is using gear more suited for smns. Only problem with drg is of course tp cost. After 2 decent pulls you are normally begging for tp. xD

As for smns they can still do alright in speed running, but they are far, and few with fewer good smn players out there that can aoe decently.

But as you said blm, and whm will be more in terms with everyone else in the aoe factor.

So you are right, blms, and whms shouldn't be forgotten yet in aoe pulls

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Originally Posted by tjw

In fact, Aero III almost makes up for the Holy nerf, if we limit mob count to 6. With the nerf, the current Holy will do 900 Potency a GCD, compared to 1200 potency of the previous Holy. Aero III's dot is 40 a tick, making a total of 240 potency. 1200 vs 1140.

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Because we're talking about DPS here, not flat potency. Aero does it's damage over time, so it's not going to flatly deal damage. Period. In a typical pull, mobs probably won't live long enough to see the full potency land, so that extra potential is wasted.

Lastly, and because this is kind of a crucial point, all of this is solely reliant on post-50 skills. Anyone running existing content is effectively taking a nerf bat to the face, so that means people still working on their zodiacs or grinding poetics tomes and experience in existing dungeons. By the by, that will be most of us since Aero III and Assize aren't until level 55+.

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Originally Posted by tjw

I'm also very interested in why you would choose to ignore the new content and instead prioritise old content.

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Simple. It's what most of us are going to be stuck with until we're high level enough to actually run the later dungeons and roulettes. If you're expecting to hit level 52 simply by running a few measly story quests you're even crazier than I am.

Also, I'm noticing you seem to avoid addressing Flare in your arguments. Black Mage has no other AoE to make up the difference like White Mage does, so where's your snappy come-back explaining why the changes to BLM were good and necessary?

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Because we're talking about DPS here, not flat potency. Aero does it's damage over time, so it's not going to flatly deal damage. Period. In a typical pull, mobs probably won't live long enough to see the full potency land, so that extra potential is wasted.

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-facepalm- I'm not taking the entirety of Aero III's damage into account. I'm taking only it's DAMAGE OVER TIME PER GCD. Did you even read what I posted before?

And unfortunately, I can't sympathise with running past content and feeling the nerf bat. Why? Because unless you're running ONLY past content, you'll no doubt be getting higher level gear that, even when level-synced, will out-perform past equipment.

I'm also very interested in why you would choose to ignore the new content and instead prioritise old content.

If the encounters pan out like I think they will leaving these spells alone would solidify one thing. Groups would consist of 1 pld 1 war/drk 2 Whm and 4 Blm period.

People freak out as if they didn't know SE hated speed runs since day one.

It was bound to happen, not like you couldn't see it coming with all the (failed) changes to dungeons and the way we run them. We can get over it now.

How is it that without even trying out new abilities, new dungeons, new class compositions and new tactics you are all so convinced that this is class suicide? I understand that ARR is pretty chock full of pessimists but damn this is ridiculous!
We have blms saying their ditching the class: good. If you only lean on Flare then your doing it wrong anyway.
And we have whm players saying they're going to continue to one click with Regen instead of holy: if that makes this game fun to you then go hard.
The tools are presented to us to be better in an ever changing environment. Learn to embrace the change! I can't wait to try and figure out new ways to pummel AND stay on top of my game. All the number crunching and theorycrafting will mean nothing in the coming weeks when the smart players utilize these new tricks and show the doubters how, once again, to perform.

I'm embracing the changes, but it won't change that I'm not a great healer. If my company needs me to heal, though, I'm going to be the best healer I can be. These changes to Holy won't impact me one bit. Now that Minuet, that's going to be hot.

Everybody please.. Take a deep breath.

I wonder if Flare will be "officially" taken into single target rotation from now on...

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Originally Posted by Evangela

that's why I quit playing mages. SE seems to hate DoM for some reason.

in other MMOs, mages do highest damages because they have a trade off that they have the weakest defense, lowest HP, etc. In FFXIV mages are weak in defense and now will be weak in offense too.

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Flare and Holy are situational.. and were really mainly used for speed runs.. Considering at most, you can cast three flares, unless you wanna gimp it with Umbral Ice, you have to go through 3-4 slow as molassis Fire IIs first. BLMs are still deadly while in Astral Fire III, and SE has no reason to nerf the other spells. I don't know about Holy, but Flare doesn't define the BLM job. It's not the end of the world.

-From a BLM.

guess i should post it here too

WHM holy nerf
http://abload.de/img/ffxiv-holy-nerf6fzf1.jpg

also, BLM flare nerf
http://abload.de/img/ffxiv-flare-nerf86xx2.jpg

What about fire 4/blizzard 4, are they going to be AoE [?] I'm curious to see the ''new'' blm rotation.