Fix Sumnmoner

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Never going to happen

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See above. If that's what you want, it's never going to happen.

Move on.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Insert whining here

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What does the Summoner being boring to watch have to do with it. I find it insanely fun to play, you actually have to pay attention. You want a complete and total rework when really the only "changes" it needs are really quite minor.

While I don't support a total rework, I disagree with minor changes. Currently Scholar has our E4E, enhanced virus, and access to a pet that can act as an extra soak. We have... Battle Res as a DPS I guess, and a AoE Bind rarely ever worth using. Come Heavenward, I hope to see a lot more utility. Firstly, give Summoners an "Evoke" ability that reduces MP/Cast time to 0 for next Egi to promote swapping, and to a lesser extent cushion a K.O. Next Add in something akin to Blood Pact Rage/Ward (From 11) and link it with the Aetherflow Mechanic. Make it so when you choose to have a Egi consume a charge you are then given access to new abilities. A few examples would be giving Ifrit a High Potency Aoe Swipe ability, garuda a dot of her own (preferably that can be contagion'd), and Titan Access to Provoke or perhaps an AoE Stoneskin or Damage reduction ability. Something like this would truly give reason to swapping and get us out of the "Fester, Fester, Fester...bane if needed" drudgery.

Alternatively, you could have the Blood Pact Abilities Augment/Enhance the existing abilities, So less icons to deal with, but more options to play it. Like Contagion adding an additional DoT, Titans next Rock Buster is granted the effect of provoke, Ifrit's Shield becomes AoE, the effect granted to those in range when used (Suddenly it has a use!).

Strictly speaking, the current summoners are closer to what I see as the old Elementalist job, in that they use the elements to inflict status ailments.

Whereas Summoners themselves should be something akin to this - see the gallery at the bottom of the page. They summon spirits themselves for short periods to deal heavy directed AoE damage and have insane MP reserves. Imagine Limit Breaking a full-scale Ifrit Hellfire onto the battlefield, how awesome wouldn't that be? o_O Balancing difficulties aside, I think that's what the Summoner job should have been. Too late for that now though, they'll not rework a job that's been in play for two years.

Why rework when they can add new job-specific abilities to further define its Summoner image?

A Final Fantasy Tactics Advance Summoner could work if they add a job ability that allows us to temporarily summon the primal and have them consume Aetherflow stacks to do their special abilities providing insane AoE Burts Damage

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Originally Posted by Akiza

A Final Fantasy Tactics Advance Summoner could work if they add a job ability that allows us to temporarily summon the primal and have them consume Aetherflow stacks to do their special abilities providing insane AoE Burts Damage

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BLM called and again wanted to inform you that the AoE burst caster job is filled.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

BLM called and again wanted to inform you that the AoE burst caster job is filled.

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Scholar called and has informed you that it does DoT better and has healing support abilities making the Summoner redundant.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Scholar called and has informed you that it does DoT better and has healing support abilities making the Summoner redundant.

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Out of curiosity how does Scholar do dots better? If they get stuck healing they aren't using DoTs.

Yay! Another summoner rework thread cause I haven't read enough of these in the past year and a half.

For those that want to summon "the full blown primals" please just stop trying. We don't need to make everyone else's life a living hell so that you can do the the big shiny attack every 30 seconds. The last thing I want is for a massive primal standing in the middle of every fight I'm in. Sometimes surveying the battle is difficult enough without have to look around Titan's rocky ass all the time. Then you have the flashy attacks. The most annoying thing about Black Mages and Summoners currently is the LB3 which makes it so that you can't see anything for a few critical seconds. I'd rather not have to put up with this on a nearly constant basis. Sure I could change my settings so that I can't see anyone else's attacks but why should I have to lower the quality of my game so that you can explode the world with your summon on a constant basis. The counter argument which I've seen spring up from this is "well it worked in XI", yes and the battles in XI were incredibly different with a much slower pacing. It was possible in XI, it's not possible here.

As for redesigning the egis, that's a somewhat valid argument but if they're going to shrink them so small that all the details become muddled... why not just have the abstract versions we have now?

You don't want to cast DoTs, right? Okay... then do you want to be an underwhelming black mage or an underwhelming white mage with a pet cause that's how most summoner classes have played in the series.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Out of curiosity how does Scholar do dots better? If they get stuck healing they aren't using DoTs.

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Because Akiza is willing to say anything, and i mean anything, no matter how dumb to construct his narrative that Summoner should be completely changed from the ground up because he doesn't like how the class plays. He's so blindly focused on this goal of throwing the baby out with the bath water, that I am convinced that he isn't even trolling anymore. He legitimately thinks this stuff.

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As for redesigning the egis, that's a somewhat valid argument but if they're going to shrink them so small that all the details become muddled... why not just have the abstract versions we have now?

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Superna/Chirada Sized Avatars I believe would be just fine, small enough to not block much view and large enough to keep much of the details intact. I don't think most want full sized nor do I support that. Ramuh's beard alone is massive if he were OG sized. As much as I would like to see this tho, it's doubtful considering the lore, at least for now.

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You don't want to cast DoTs, right? Okay... then do you want to be an underwhelming black mage or an underwhelming white mage with a pet cause that's how most summoner classes have played in the series.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but most SMNs in FF stuck purely to there job sake of Summoning, be that for a single burst of damage/buff, or it temp took over the field for the caster/Party, and you would command it as such. I won't attest to having played or researched everything, but XI seemed to be the only one to really have the underwhelming blm/whm sub. The summoner job itself in XI had fairly respectable burst damage, assuming you had blood pact timers shaved down, and a plethora of utility options from its summons.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Out of curiosity how does Scholar do dots better? If they get stuck healing they aren't using DoTs.

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Because Scholar can Dot and Bane enemies while healing. Only thing Summoner can do is provide is underwhelming DPS

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Originally Posted by FreeLancer4

Ramuh's beard alone is massive if he were OG sized. As much as I would like to see this tho, it's doubtful considering the lore, at least for now.

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.. now I want a Ramuh summon that is just a tiny floating head and a beard reaching to the ground (like a lightning bolt?)...

Regarding everything else (throwing my voice in) - I like smn as is. I don't care if it doesn't match previous games because this ISN'T those games. I picked a class to play based on how it plays, not on the name. And I think a DoT class fits its role in the world. THM channels virtually uncontrolled aether into pure destructive forms. ACN channels carefully controlled aether into predictable forms; either disrupting a target's aetheric field (DoTs) or pets. If anything I would expect them to have more crowd control spells.

These threads are constant because summons in the FF games have been about bringing in a ringer on your side. They're often cutscene attacks, but they're also about having a buddy that's way stronger than you or any of your group mates coming in for a bit and messing things up, they're the stars of the show for as long as they're on the stage. The egis are helpful, but they're not showstoppers. I bet a lot of the aethetics and feel of the summoner could be greatly improved by redoing their limit breaks to make them summon something big and have it fight for a bit. If you're reductionist enough, that's just a dot anyway, and the summoners are the dot specialists.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Because Scholar can Dot and Bane enemies while healing. Only thing Summoner can do is provide is underwhelming DPS

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There you go folks, if you needed any more proof that this guy is full of crap.

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Originally Posted by rawker

Why rework when they can add new job-specific abilities to further define its Summoner image?

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Overall, needs more abilities drawn from the primal fights themselves, whether through job skills or the egi themselves.

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Originally Posted by Razard

There you go folks, if you needed any more proof that this guy is full of crap.

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I mean he's right about SCH dots doing more damage, but i mean doting while healling doenst mean anything

its cleric stance giving 10% more all the time

Because without Cleric Stance, both healers will offer nothing outside healing. Sure, SCH DoTs may deal more per tick but other than that, they only have Ruin I/II, Bane and Shafowflare which isn't that game-breaking. SMNs, otoh, has other things to do like Fester... not to mention that their egis actually deal damage(that's an extra 100+ dps added to your existing dps... shocking). I would kill just to let my fairy b****-slap my enemies every once in a while when healing isn't really needed.

Underwhelming!? I wouldn't trade that underwhelming animation to let's say amp it to be as annoying as 3 caster LB3s casting one after the other.

I can't tell if this is a troll thread or not.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

... specializing in Massive AoE Bursts with solid Single Target

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You've just described a black mage.

Ok wait, I have a solution. Stay with me here.

Step 1: Purchase label maker.
Step 2: Reroll Lalafell. You'll see why in a moment.
Step 3: Pick THM as your base class.
Step 4: Use label maker to print 'Summoner' label.
Step 5: Affix label to the spot on your monitor where your class shows up.
Step 6: Level THM until you get your chocobo companion quest. Treat this as a class quest.
Step 7: Continue leveling until you can summon your chocobo into battle
Step 8: Buy at least 9999 greens so you never have to worry about them again.
Step 9: Summon your chocobo. THIS IS YOUR SUMMON. It is much bigger than you (because you are a lalafell). Chocobos have been summons in past games, so it fits the theme. Your chocobo can tank, heal, and dps to varying degrees. It has many abilities on various cooldowns. Also like past summons, it mostly does its own thing once you've spawned it. It is the perfect summon and the only one you will ever need.
Step 10: Get the BLM job crystal and continue leveling to 50. You'll receive flare and the third tier of elemental spells. This is your solid single target and massive aoe.
Step 11: Summon non-combat pet. This is your level 50 'summoner' perk that lets you temporarily have two summons out at once. Despawn this pet once you think enough time has passed.
Step 12: Submit bug reports that pet is bugged and cannot enter instances or raids with you.
Step 13: Wait until SE fixes the bug.
Step 14: You're done!

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Originally Posted by Viviza

Ok wait, I have a solution. Stay with me here.

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oh god I can start seeing this forum getting filled with threads like give blm more dots and new pets now because it's not op enough

This is why we can't have civil discussion about making reasonable adjustments to summoner. :(

Tweaks on existing abilities are done when if it really needs to. An overhaul is needed when such tweaks barely makes any difference. The adjustment to mp consumption for Ruin I/II favors SMN more than SCH. It didn't make SCH stronger with it but it sure made SMN squeeze in a few more punches before literally crying out for MB. Some people call to drastic measures like overhauling the class thinking as if the job is already finished and no more abilities will be added. We are assured that future abilities will be focused more on the jobs rather than the classes. For the lore junkies, such as myself, it is still open for new advances such as being able to call forth stronger versions of our egis(wishful thinking). Whatever could those be, I let SE do it.

It's not that we cannot have civil discussions on how to adjust the summoner, it's how people tend to react in such a manner that what we have as of the moment is final. In fact, we're very far from it. A lot of things will still happen. I guess this isn't just SMN-specific but applies to every job. That's why most of us speculate of what's to come. It's not that we're calling for an overhaul.

Speaking for myself, there are pre-existing skills (i.e. the Egi) and certain system design choices that could use adjustment to make them a bit more future proof. With that said, there is always the prospect of new abilities being added to further define the job, and perhaps even find a middleground for people who would like to see small changes, and those who say "it's fine. if you don't like it, don't play it."

However, there are certain individuals who frequent this messageboard, making absurd suggestions, changing their opinion and backpedalling so often, I'm at a loss for a suitable metaphor to describe said behavior. For a lack of a better term, I would call it troll bait. But we all know how avoiding said bait works on a discussion board, and I don't see thoughtful discussing taking place with it littered across every thread that makes mention of summoner.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

However, there are certain individuals who frequent this messageboard, making absurd suggestions, changing their opinion and backpedalling so often, I'm at a loss for a suitable metaphor to describe said behavior. For a lack of a better term, I would call it troll bait. But we all know how avoiding said bait works on a discussion board, and I don't see thoughtful discussing taking place with it littered across every thread that makes mention of summoner.

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We could ignore them. I've seen a few reasonable suggestions in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

We could ignore them. I've seen a few reasonable suggestions in this thread.

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I personally feel that we need a Dislike button that hides the post after x amount of dislikes, similar to WoW's forums. Helps hide the shitposts and other such rubbish.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

We could ignore them. I've seen a few reasonable suggestions in this thread.

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That's why I've started to lose interest in SMN debates. It's a few constructive and/or interesting ideas drowned in the same tired old hyperbole, strawmanning and character attacks as the others.

I wish the debate would turn direction to less frivolous things and more about this games need or lack of a primary dot class. The way endgame fights seemed tuned to burst mechanics, add phases needing fast pace burn down and scaling with content where more burst makes faster runs. This is my biggest grip about the stigma players create as a result of this, I just wish talk would focus on do you think SE will change/create mechanics where is suits dot style play, it dose not seem they would design future content around one job style honestly.

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Originally Posted by TripPsyc

I wish the debate would turn direction to less frivolous things and more about this games need or lack of a primary dot class. The way endgame fights seemed tuned to burst mechanics, add phases needing fast pace burn down and scaling with content where more burst makes faster runs. This is my biggest grip about the stigma players create as a result of this, I just wish talk would focus on do you think SE will change/create mechanics where is suits dot style play, it dose not seem they would design future content around one job style honestly.

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Most of the endgame content got designed around bursts mechanics with add phases needing to be burned down fast to make the game more challenging which directly affects the Summoner becuase it's DoT. SE won't design content around one job because that will un fair to other jobs. Current jobs will be getting 6 new job abilities for the expansion starting at lvl 50 so that should fix the problems that Summoner has.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

This is why we can't have civil discussion about making reasonable adjustments to summoner. :(

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Absolutely agree, and it's on both sides.

Overall the game is designed specifically for blunt damage and bursts damage jobs because ever since 2.0 endgame fights have turned to needing burst mechanics with add phases needing to be burned down fast which leaves the Summoner out in the cold. I don't see a future where SE will design content with the Summoner in mind because it only affects one job. In turns of combat and damage melee are pretty close to each other.
The problem with the Summoner is their's a large gap between their combat and damage when compared to the Black Mage. This makes the Black Mage the default casters while the Summoner is competing with the Monk and Dragoon in raiding parties we all Monk gets top priority.
In Heavensward I suggest that Summons become the Focal Point of the Summoner and the Summoner gains a Bursts Phase.

What about easing on mana management/better mana recovery so just being able to use Festers and reducing Enkindle to a 1 min cd becomes an actual thing? Wouldn't that be sufficient burst?

I'd kill to have a 1 minute Enkindle.

The closest we got to a burst combo is DoTs into Fester into Ruin II. Which takes 7 seconds to complete and costs a ridiculous amount of MP.
I mean, you could also waste all your aetherflow on Energy Drains, but that's so inefficient.

While we're at it, add a quality of life fix to Enkindle so your pet can under no circumstance ignore the command, which it can do sometimes, usually when you give it a different command beforehand.

I still think we should just rename this class and remove the egis, though.

No. Just add more job-defining abilities.

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Originally Posted by TripPsyc

I wish the debate would turn direction to less frivolous things and more about this games need or lack of a primary dot class....

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The way most content plays out would work fine for SMN (or any primary DOT class) if
A) they had much higher single target DPS

Most fights have a singular main boss where other add mobs spawn and need to be burned down. In most cases it is more efficient for a Bard (high burst) and BLM to swap targets to burn down any adds instead of having a melee DPS change targets at the loss of their debuffs (while a small loss for those few seconds, it is a loss).

In the case of SMN - if they were able to maintain higher single target DPS then it would be worth while in that case for them to most likely toss a Bio on the add, while continuing on the main boss and have a melee DPS use a gap closer to burn down the add along with a bard.

But since currently BLM has higher single target, better burst and AOE, it is just so much more efficient.

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I'm curious what will happen in 3.0 because while people say "FIX SMN", at the same time that means "GIMP BLM".

I feel it's impossible to balance both play styles to Please everyone.

Yoshi said he was re balancing the Egis so they have a defined role so it could change the dynamics of the job in 3.0
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/120...9-Translations

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Yoshi said he was re balancing the Egis so they have a defined role so it could change the dynamics of the job in 3.0
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/120...9-Translations

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That's from last year for one and for two, that doesn't mention anything about changing the dynamics of the job. Just that they were carefully considering what to do with the egis in light of the "always use Garuda" at the time.