summoner dps how to do it

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Originally Posted by melflomil

On my SCH i have 644 Crit. i can put on average about 150 DPS. For those times my Crit fluctuate between 33% and 27%

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Hazel! \^_^/ lol

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

Hazel! \^_^/ lol

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My favorite ninja ^_^. Remember buddy, I would risk the tank dying just to save you

I've been lurking this thread and I'm,even more interested in working on my SMN. Just a question: You guys don't use Garuda anymore? All recent discussion here uses Ifrit, so I'm confused on this.

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Originally Posted by Tiops

I've been lurking this thread and I'm,even more interested in working on my SMN. Just a question: You guys don't use Garuda anymore? All recent discussion here uses Ifrit, so I'm confused on this.

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Not sure if you have seen my guide but I explain how you should be using either of them. They both have uses even within bounds of the same fight.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Summoner-Guide

So I've been heavily comparing the difference between the Bio and Classic Openers.

The difference I have seen when not using Contagion to extend the duration of a second RS'd Bio. (so when opening with Ifrit)

- When opening with Bio you need to see RS registered as a buff before using Bio or you will miss having it buffed. (due to being instant cast)
- Bio 2 with RS you can cast immediately due to having a cast time for RS to register anyways.
- The 48 Potency from a Second buffed Bio is almost immeasurable over the course of the opener.
- The Bio opener does not flow as well compared to the Classic Opener. So a single missed tick can overcome the 2nd buffed Bio (35-40 potency)

To summarize. On Paper the Bio opener is better, but in practical use where considering Dot clipping, and Pre-Casting Bio2 on the opener the Classic Opener is IMO better.

Over many tests of comparing the two, they both come out to about 3 DPS within each other, so I would always chose the one that flows better and has greater potential due to clipping.

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Should also add, when pre-casting Bio2 you are already ahead almost a full GCD before the boss is pulled. If you turn that into even half of an extra Ruin, then you are also ahead 40-80 Potency. You can't pre-cast Bio without pulling the boss lol. So that makes the Classic even more so the better choice.

I like people like you, willing to test both out and put your hands up and say in actual fact there is little in it :)

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

I like people like you, willing to test both out and put your hands up and say in actual fact there is little in it :)

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I'd chose trying to help others play their best over being "right" any day.

Pshhhhhhhh. That is a terrible philosophy =P

I am reminded of a saying, "Its not only that I must succeed, but that all others must fail".

How can you hope to be an elitist otherwise?

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

I'd chose trying to help others play their best over being "right" any day.

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I really appreciate that you guys've been sharing your thoughts on best play. I'm totally benefitting from you guys chatting in both this thread and Haven's guide (so thank you!). To be honest, I was starting to get jealous of the BLM thread: it was always so up to date and well thought through, and I was sure there were people who were serious about SMN and had a lot of solid insight about it.

Its odd though because BLM has more variability to its rotation than SMN is.

The hardest part of SMN is really just...well learning to keep your dots up and your pet alive.

The rest is...very minor.

Even the oft debated "opener" has a very small impact on your overall dps. I can see why SMN threads die out - while the initial learning curve is daunting once you get used to it there isn't really that much to say.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

I can see why SMN threads die out - while the initial learning curve is daunting once you get used to it there isn't really that much to say.

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I'd say it's the opposite. To me, it seems more of a complexity within the simplicity front that is often not pinpointed. Like if you can look at everything a very good SMN does and try to copy it , most of the time you still won't pull the same numbers. It's only after you become absorbed within your own rotation of DoTs & Spells and push it to the limit, that everything just sorta clicks finally. At that point, take a step back and try to look at every single thing you do. Now try to tell someone else to do the same and suddenly it's much harder to describe everything in one summary. Largely, this leads to so much micro-information that's gonna take you to the next point, spread out and lost within forums and threads all the time.

I realized when writing my guide that exact same thing. I wrote many things down and when I looked back, I was amazed to find that a lot of the things I did overall, was still missing. I think often enough, the class has too many angles or outlets regarding it's overall play style and that's why the simple upkeep can't bring you to a stage beyond average. I've seen many SMNs play the class on the front level and pulling what I would consider is the average number a SMN would be pulling at 130, and then you just see those lights from other SMNs and it's in an entire other league.

People can point you in the right direction but until you become in sync with it's core, you can't take the next step into the higher numbers. Once you take the step, you are now just doing anything you can to stretch everything you know to it's absolute limit.

This is why I sometimes feel SMN might actually need a DPS buff. While I'm perfectly content with the numbers I can pull with the tools I have, I sure don't believe anyone on the dev team meant the SMN class to be this overbearing in play-style to compete for the caster position. It seems just too much. It's either streamline it or reward the effort now. Playing catchup is rather difficult on the class and I wouldn't even just leave it with bad gearing. Gearing customization is not what really holds back people on the class. It's very heavily the actual gameplay required.

For SMN to be so heavily influenced by party composition, Foes timing, Pet Downtime, MP, Book Smacks, gear stats, party buff not effecting pet, food not effecting pet, higher acc requirement and most complex and punishing play style,

I'm going to have agree with you.

Yea, but all the stuff is so abstruse that they seem more exploits than intended gameplay.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Yea, but all the stuff is so abstruse that they seem more exploits than intended gameplay.

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I believe that would be the case, if it wasn't the only way for SMN to have competitive DPS currently.

Well, cross your fingers with Heavensward. FFXIV has many pluses, consistent and meaningful class tweaks are not one of them.

I mean, since release, what change has come to the class? Removed thunder, some marginal egi tweaks, and some reduction in ruin cost. That's it.

So it's fairly reasonable to expect that if they do not get it right with Heavensward, you're gonna be waiting till the next expansion and hope they finally get it that time.

Another problem is a key feature of class balancing in MMO's. Classes are balanced for similar performance, but they are not balanced for how complex it is to achieve said performance. Summoner and monk are similar. A monk needs to learn the fight in and out to not lose his greased lightning stacks reliably, to land his positionals without endangering the group. And yet ninja and dragoon compete with it on DPS, why are classes that are more flexible able to put the same numbers?

And the reason is the top players. People who can play the class to a full potential would make class disparities stark, and that would pass down to pugs for whom it really shouldn't matter, but they are people who follow the meta without understanding context. The amount of whine for example from a blackmage once you put a buffed summoner and a black mage in the hands of skilled players would basically be the same as turn 1-5 BLM whine, griping about how useless they were compared to a summoner.

So sadly you can't have classes that are more complex but with a higher payoff. The only solution is to streamline and simplify the class and make it reliably achieve competitive dps for everybody.

SMN are least affected by fight mechanics though, so they're pretty much the opposite of MNK.

Monks take over 40 seconds to setup (if caught without PB) while SMN take well, 8, if that.

No reason to think that just because a class is more complicated it should pull more dps.

I disagree with the idea that more complex classes should have more "payoff".

The payoff is playing your class well. It isn't that you should do more dps. It simply doesn't make sense to just say "oh well, this class just by default has a higher dps ceiling". Its the hallmark of bad design. I prefer it that every class is balanced (not saying it necessarily is right now) for similar dps at similar gear.

Yes but by no means should a class with a high skill cap be in a disadvantaged position.

"Disadvantaged" is not as clear cut as might seem.

For instance, I wouldn't mind if SMN is like, 5-10% behind the top dps on whatever fight.

Its only when it becomes a detriment to progression that it is a problem.

The idea of "why would you bring X class if Y can do everything better" is also a question that keeps getting brought up but is a baiting question. Clearly not every class is identical. Clearly sometimes utility of a kind is needed.

My experience is thus, I've never had any problems being invited to groups, nor have I had any problems with bosses not dying because of my class. So, in my mind what I want are QoL changes and answers to some questions about "crappy" design addressed, instead of numbers or mechanics buffs.

Summoner is more complex than the Monk because of the little nuances of the job. An average monk can copy the rotation of a highly skilled monk and achieve similar dps. An average summoner can copy the rotation of a highly skilled summoner and see no difference because the way DoT classes work there will still be a 100 dps difference between a highly skilled summoner and an average summoner. If they don't want to go the buff route they can streamline the job by condensing it to two DoTs poison and miasma then give it direct damage spells turning Summoner into an explosive Black Mage.

What on earth are you talking about, summoner dps variation has nothing to do with dot uptime, like you graduate from SMN 101 and you get 100% dot uptime. Cooldown usage and mechanical quirks like autoattacks are the actual separation.

High dot uptime is much, much easier than hitting every positional every time. For one thing, you don't have to move >.< The rest is up to the player. But really neither BLM nor SMN are very difficult in the rotational department.

I think it is just players personal opinion what is harder and what is not. For somebody SMN can be harder and for somebody monk can be harder and for somebody both are hard and for somebody both are easy.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Summoner is more complex than the Monk because of the little nuances of the job. An average monk can copy the rotation of a highly skilledmonk and achieve similar dps. An average summoner can copy the rotation of a highly skilled summoner and see no difference because the way DoT classes work there will still be a 100 dps difference between a highly skilled summoner and an average summoner. If they don't want to go the buff route they can streamline the job by condensing it to two DoTs poison and miasma then give it direct damage spells turning Summoner into an explosive Black Mage.

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lol, nope. Monk DPS performance isn't about copying rotation to achieve similar DPS. In case you think tooltips mean little, positionals actually translate to a significant difference (a 700+ sucker punch suddenly turns to 550 at the wrong position due to a fight mechanic, that's a meaningful difference). A monk who knows how to deal with Kaliya's patterns is in a much better position to consistently land positionals without killing himself, screwing up tethers to land a positional, or screwing the raid on seeds. It's no different with earthshakers in Bahamut without losing greased lightning stacks.

And losing 27% extra damage and 15% attack speed because unlike a good monk you were unable to maintain your stacks in an encounter you're not as familiar with translates to quite the difference.