Should Cleric Stance be disabled during Dungeons and Raids?

I main SCH and find SMN to be too boring to play because there is no stance dancing involved.

...and I'm a terribad SMN anyways so not a great loss I guess

13 pages and op got just one like.

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

True, but if we didn't have cleric stance it wouldn't be as expected of us to DPS because our performance wouldn't be as good. The reason I made this thread is because there are many instances where healers have a lot on there plate with the healing and it feels unfair to have to do the job of the other jobs.

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No one expects you to dps in healing intense situations. But, let me ask you a question, what do you do if there's nothing to heal? As a healer you will alway have downtime, and even if it's only 3 seconds, that's already enough to weave in a dps cast. As a dps or tank you have a rotation, you're expected to push a button at any given time, queuing one skill/cast after another. There's no reason for you as a healer to go brain afk or alt-tab out to youtube when the next heal is a few full seconds away. ^^

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

Why should healers dps if the dps don't heal, nor tank and the same applies to tanks they don't heal they just dps because its required to do their job.

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The ultimate goal of your 'group' is to kill the boss, no matter your role.

Your job - aswell as everyone else's job - is to contribute everything possible and utilize every tool you are given to reach that goal. Like I already said, there's absolutely no reason for you to not press buttons during healing-downtime when everyone else is pressing a button at any given time. If you think otherwise, then you're lazy and would probably be replaced pretty quickly in alot of statics.

No.

Just because you can't, or don't want to do something doesn't mean the game should be nerfed to make you feel better. Like everything in life, there will always be people more talented than you are who do a better job than you do. No one should be penalized for excelling, and frankly I think it was a mistake to disable it in PVP.

No, thats what separates the amazing healers from the good ones.

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

The title says it all do you guys think that Cleric Stance should be disabled during dungeons and raids similar to frontlines.

Recently it has become almost mandatory for healers to DPS, and while it certainly does have it niches it shouldn't be a requirement nor feasible in raids and dungeons unless the healer was made with damage dealing healing capabilities (Ex. Discipline Priest Wow / Dancer FFXI)

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So you want to disable cleric stance? then what's left? pressing a hotkey every 10 seconds to drop a cure on someone? sounds boring to me... Healing in most duties is extremly easy that if you only do that you'd end up standing and doing nothing 80% of the run... Don't know about you but I like to actually play the game insteada of standing around watching others play lol

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

The title says it all do you guys think that Cleric Stance should be disabled during dungeons and raids similar to frontlines.

Recently it has become almost mandatory for healers to DPS, and while it certainly does have it niches it shouldn't be a requirement nor feasible in raids and dungeons unless the healer was made with damage dealing healing capabilities (Ex. Discipline Priest Wow / Dancer FFXI)

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If you, personally, don't want to go out of your way to throw in some additional damage (which can help make a run go faster and smoother at times) then don't. The most important thing you are there to do is stop the tank from dying whilst the actual DPS jobs kill the enemies, and if a pull is large enough you might not get much time to actually contribute that effectively with damage anyway.

That said, a couple of stuns from Holy can be used as a decent form of damage mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Sumimi

DPSing as a healer is not a "requirement" for anything.

Healers who DPS fall into two categories:
1) They're really just SMNs or BLMs in disguise, and never really wanted to heal in the first place.
2) They're real healers who want to make the best of the time they have, and sneak in a few spells so runs are faster and/or dps checks are met.

Would you believe me if I said Holy is a good healing spell? I personally think it is.

So...no. Cleric Stance should not be disabled. I reckon a large number of healers will stop playing their respective healing class if that happens.

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this pretty much sums it up

Don't see why it should be disabled. It's helpful in most content for the healer to stance dance and get some DPS in during any down time they have. As long as their managing their MP well and keep healing, it causes zero problems.

Disable Cleric Stance there and you might as well remove it from the game altogether, really.

The idea of disabling it is just bad. But I'll add my opinion to the hot pot. I'm bard main whm second. Can play both great and all. But I will often run on whm in dungeons when I'm trying to relax. This works great in most part I can heal and sit there and do nothing. But at the same time if I feel like it I can dps a bit(which frankly with the yolo tanks now-a-days is rare cause they haven't heard of cooldowns or waiting 10s for the starting buffs). What I hate though... is the mass pull speedrunners that don't even check what jobs they got in the party(much less their gear) and pull the whole room then expect me to a) keep them alive b) aoe them down - because ya know... no real aoe potential c) get disrespectful towards me and everyone else because we naturally wipe and d) or if we do survive by some miracle then pull the next half room with me on near no mp and expect me to keep them up...

Look at it this way: If Cleric Stance was disabled, healers would instead fill their downtime in a dungeon by... still using DPS skills. All it would accomplish is nerfing healers and making DPS checks harder all around.

OP, Cleric Stance is not your issue, and removing it is not the solution you're looking for. Your issue is that you're not comfortable with your skill level and you're not standing up for yourself. You mentioned you were required to DPS in Turn 9 while you're still learning the fight yourself. This is not, in my opinion, a reasonable request, as especially with the current echo bonus and high item level gear are making the DPS checks in that fight very loose.

What you should do is, instead of posting silly suggestions on the forums wishing no one would ask such a thing from you, tell your group that you're able to handle the healing part just fine but you are not comfortable enough to change to cleric stance without risking someone dying and thus making your DPS worse. In short: know what you're capable of and let your party know that's what you're offering them, nothing else.

Also, I notice you're WHM and not SCH. A good option is to discuss with your healing partner and agree when they'll change to Cleric Stance while you take care of the healing (golem phases are a good place to start from).

I have to ask the obvious question, what do you do in between healing spells if not DPS?

There are obvious situations where I don't DPS in between heals (running low-ish on MP, or incoming massive spike damage) but why wouldn't you DPS? It helps you out in the long term.

If I cant switch to CS because I'm anticipating upcoming damage I toss in Bio 1, 2, a couple of Ruins, and a Shadow Flare anyways, everything helps.

Did you pay attention to the Conjurer storyline?

One of the morals of it was sometimes a conjurer must learn to do more than just heal. Sometimes you need to fight in order to protect your friends, just healing isn't enough.

While you are a powerful healer you still have the ability to command the elements. Never forget that.

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

The title says it all do you guys think that Cleric Stance should be disabled during dungeons and raids similar to frontlines.

Recently it has become almost mandatory for healers to DPS, and while it certainly does have it niches it shouldn't be a requirement nor feasible in raids and dungeons unless the healer was made with damage dealing healing capabilities (Ex. Discipline Priest Wow / Dancer FFXI)

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http://i.imgur.com/1JXCcV3.gif

Instead of disabling cleric stance, they should disable all the damage spells.
And of course as DPS aren't supposed to tank or anything, disable all their mitigation and health recovery tools.
Remove all the dps abilities of BRD, they are supposed to be support, they should not do damage at all.
Same for tank, disable their damage enhancing and health recovery tools, I'm sure WAR will thank you for removing the healing side of Beat Within.
How about no ?

Is food mandatory? Nope. Does it help? Yes. Should they disable food? No.
Are potions mandatory? Nope. Do they help? Yes. Should they be removed? No.
Is sword Oath mandatory? Nope. Does it help when your tank is not mting? Sometimes, Yes. Should Sword Oath be removed? No.

Is cleric stance mandatory? Nope. Does it help? Yes. Should they disable cleric stance? No.

Better start getting rid of your inferiority complex TC, and deal with what you are capable of atm. If you can't heal and DPS reliably because you don't feel comfortable enough, either get good or learn the fight better to anticipate those moments in the fight your raid is in danger and thus need to heal more.

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

The title says it all do you guys think that Cleric Stance should be disabled during dungeons and raids similar to frontlines.

Recently it has become almost mandatory for healers to DPS, and while it certainly does have it niches it shouldn't be a requirement nor feasible in raids and dungeons unless the healer was made with damage dealing healing capabilities (Ex. Discipline Priest Wow / Dancer FFXI)

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The whole conjurer quest line was about how healers shouldn't be lazy and content with just healing lol

If there is room to be more efficient, then why not be more efficient?

im in my first trimester of pregnancy, thought the god awful nausea couldnt get any worse and then i read the OP til i laughed myself to heartburn and vomit

"I don't like something optional, so please disable it entirely so I am sure to not see it again."

Lolwut? NO.

For the love of all that is pew pew. No. Just, no. Every single fight in this game is about a dance. Stance dance is just a small part of it.

Let's cha-cha.

I'd love to have a "heal through DPS" ability of some kind.

When there's only light healing to do, this would be a good way to go about doing it.

This idea would cause more problems than it would solve. If you took away Cleric Stance, healers would still have downtime where they don't need to heal and they would still DPS. But without the added damage from CS, they would take longer and use more mana to DPS. You'd have to take away healer dps spells altogether to never be "forced" to DPS but then how would you do anything SOLO? The better solution to your problem is just to communicate with your team that you aren't comfortable with stance dancing yet. In the meantime, maybe get some practice at it.

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Originally Posted by Lycelle

You kinda just stuck your foot in your mouth mate. If Healers are geared enough to solo Heal those turns, then that means by that point DPS should be geared enough to take down the content without "needing" DPS from Healers.

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Or rather, you ignored the point he was trying to make.

Turns 12 and 13 get quite significantly easier as your DPS improves, T12's phase 3 goes from requiring both healers to throw everything they have right down to being outright trivial for a single SCH. In effect, by increasing your raid's DPS, you are massively dropping the amount of healing required. Far more so than you might expect.

Whilst I agree that a healer shouldn't be required to DPS in Turns 1-9 now, if you want to progress at the pointy end, you really need fully grasp every last little niche of your spell book. If you can't handle that then I can only say that progression raiding isn't for you.

I'd quit my main healing role. Nerfed Holy, locked Cleric Stance in Frontlines.. due to whiners and lazy players is already pretty sad. I'm not saying a healer must DPS, if he/she keeps the party alive it's good enough already but if someone can manage to throw in some DPS well that's just a plus I thank FFXIV for.
I do DPS as a healer--it's fun-but I don't like parties that force their hand on healers to do DPS as well just cause they can't do their job properly. The solution is not simple but please don't ask something that would ruin the fun of many others players.

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Originally Posted by Kiara1

oh yeah that and the lag!
I have a macro that changes hotbar when I change stance. Except sometimes the stance doesn't change but the hotbar does.
Praying that they'll fix all the lag issues with the expansion!

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It's not actually a lag issue. I use a macro for that as well. Just wait until your last action's animation is done, then use it. If you use it during something's animation, it only changes the hotbar.

As for the topic, yeah, removing it is a horrible idea. I dps while healing in most content, but not to the detriment of the group's safety, and since I'm not in a static, most of the time for ex primals and second coil I am more careful, though I hate standing around being idle or spamming stoneskin on people who really don't need it (ie no incoming tank buster, nobody with weakness, etc.). It really comes down to how comfortable you and your group is. If things go smoothly, there is no reason not to dps as a healer (aside from crappy accuracy, but there are exceptions to that). The same goes for, for example, main tanking in sword oath or with defiance off if you have str/vit crafted accessories during times where you're mostly just taking fluff damage. Pushing your job to its limits is something that only more experienced/geared people should do. It should not always be expected in order to clear content, but if your whole team is doing that and doing it well, it can really make a difference.

No.... not at all....

If your group is asking/demanding you DPS in cleric when you're not comfortable with switching into Cleric, then tell them so. If they don't like it and won't give you the chance to become more comfortable/non-DPS practice in the raid, then it may not be the group for you. It's not a problem of the skill, but a problem with the players. Taking the skill away won't solve your problem with your raid group - that's just running away from the problem by banishing it just so you don't have to deal with the group's demand.


Honestly, my opinion is healing first, DPS second, when on healer - and I've seen those that seem to make this the opposite. If I don't feel comfortable switching into Cleric (exception is DPS races such as AK HM, Xande, Odin's end) but certainly have some space to toss some DPS in, I WILL DPS or plod DoTs on in between without Cleric. Yes, I know, it's not optimal DPS and the DoT damage would be insignificant, but I'd rather be able to suddenly step-cast cancel and immediately cure/medica/whatever without pause than get that bit of extra DPS in. My job is to heal first.
If my tank in a dungeon is squishy and needs a CureII every two StoneIIs, I won't switch but I will DPS between cures.
If my tank, with regen, can hold their own for a bunch of hits, I will switch to Cleric and help DPS.
When I Holy for mob deaths, I will switch to Cleric. If I holy for the sheer sake of just stunning so I can focus on cures/esunas in a chaotic situation, I won't.
If I'm (or another squishy) being smacked hard by trash ADDs not being picked off in a raid, I'll SC a non-Cleric'd HOly to stun it and run off to heal (or continue healing that person).

Cleric stance is a useful tool when used int he right situations, but you need to feel you won't get locked in the Cleric stance cool down (IE, feel comfortable). Disabling it in raids/dungeons is not a good thing. If a DPS dies or leaves or AFKs and shit hits the fans, I can pick up the DPS that's missing. it was super handy in AK HM's last boss. Kill the ADDs or you wipe. it goes too fast to do tiny damage to them.
I <3 my 1k+ Holy crits in huge mobs. Don't take them away from me D:

I had a person in a DF'ed ST get on my case, after a while, as to why I'm not in Cleric - or why I'm not holying. I ignored them. The DPS is not my priority (though, I was Holying in the beginning of a trash mob after prompted by the co-healer to go for it - before the secondaries appeared... but found myself needing to be healing anyway). But after seeing so many people needing heals, regardless my healing partner being there, I opted not to, because I was not comfortable with it. I like healthy HP bars, not partially healthy HP bars, with strain on one healer, nor mostly dead-looking Alliance HP bars. The person can deal with it /shrug. Priorities.

Kindly gtfo out with this idea please. I'll use it or not if I care to but I'll not have any of my skills disabled in non-pvp content.

I hope this proposal is a joke.

(referring to OP)

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Originally Posted by Saseal

I like healthy HP bars

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Hopefully you'll one day learn that's not actually the best outlook to have when healing. Healing people up to the point where they won't die to something unavoidable is the real secret.

Nope. I'm a healer and I have no issue with popping a few Holys with Cleric stance up if the tank can take a few hits while I do it. Sometimes it's needed if there is a dps check and the dps is low too.

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Originally Posted by TheMax1087

Hopefully you'll one day learn that's not actually the best outlook to have when healing. Healing people up to the point where they won't die to something unavoidable is the real secret.

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Do you mean the MT and Odin? Odin does some massive damage to the MT with one of his abilities >.>.

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

The title says it all do you guys think that Cleric Stance should be disabled during dungeons and raids similar to frontlines.

Recently it has become almost mandatory for healers to DPS, and while it certainly does have it niches it shouldn't be a requirement nor feasible in raids and dungeons unless the healer was made with damage dealing healing capabilities (Ex. Discipline Priest Wow / Dancer FFXI)

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I do not agree with CS being disabled.

However this post did make me miss the days i spent in Rift as a Chloromancer. OH what i wouldn;t give for a class in FFXIV that deals amazing amounts of damage and distributes the results of that damage as mass heals to the team. It would really balance out, allowing them to support team-wide heal while the current healers focused on tank heals and spike healing those who really needed it.

In all honesty, though, if everyone just does their job right, a healer should never be NEEDED to pass a DPS check. We can;t do jack for damage anyway even in Cleric Stance. However, options are options and if a healer chooses to help out with DPS while the team is okay on health I think they should always have that option. Everyone plays differently.

Just, however, a reminder to healers . . . do watch that skill. had a healer during opening night on WoD that was stuck in Cleric Stance the entire run. They didn't get kicked because I was solo healing the team and I don't think anyone noticed and I am not one of those souls who calls people out during a fight unless we're wiping. But admittedly it would have been a LOT easier if they were, say, healing ;) Thus, if I were to ever suggest a compromise on both sides of the fence, have Cleric Stance be a limited time buff. During DPS checks, a stance that lasts for 30 seconds is more than enough to help the team then get back to your real job - healing. If you want to DPS any longer than that you should be queuing as a DPS, not a healer. I sometimes wonder if some of the other healers I have been getting teamed with only rolled a healer for quick queue times, but that's an entirely different argument altogether that's only slightly related to this topic.

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

Im not against healers dpsing, im just against this new way of thinking that healers should be excepted to dps especially in things they don't feel comfortable healing yet. I had a dps tell me to dps in T9 while obviously the whole party was taking heavy damage now if they removed cleric stance it wouldn't mean that you couldn't dps just that it would even out the playing field between the healers that dps and the ones that don't because currently cleric stance is a big dps bonus.

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This is resolved simply by saying that you don't feel comfortable dpsing content that is new to you. If they don't like it you can find another group. But to remove a very useful skill that several healers can contribute more to the raid with is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

Do you mean the MT and Odin? Odin does some massive damage to the MT with one of his abilities >.>.

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Sanngetall. Can it be reduced by Adlo/Stoneskin? I usually MT Odin and I cast SS on myself when it's being casted, but I'm not sure if it does anything to help as I'm too busy dodging Valknut to notice the difference.

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Originally Posted by Neuflune

Sanngetall. Can it be reduced by Adlo/Stoneskin? I usually MT Odin and I cast SS on myself when it's being casted, but I'm not sure if it does anything to help as I'm too busy dodging Valknut to notice the difference.

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Somewhat. It does help to an extent but the damage from Sange is still excruciating, no matter how you prep for it. I've seen tanks cast SS on themselves, and I've done it for them and it does sorta help, but it has to be timed right, or all other hits eat the SS completely or doesn't leave much for the SS to absorb (so it appears like it didn't help at all). At certain points, it just gets too hectic to SS the tank when everyone's dropping to 50-25/below% hp due to AoE + floor DoT and trying to keep everyone off said floor with divined medicas/II, etc
Unfortunately, it just comes down to timing it right and not expecting anything miraculous from it (that I've witnessed)

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Originally Posted by Neuflune

Sanngetall. Can it be reduced by Adlo/Stoneskin? I usually MT Odin and I cast SS on myself when it's being casted, but I'm not sure if it does anything to help as I'm too busy dodging Valknut to notice the difference.

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It's like a mini pre-echo death sentence. Adlo/stoneskin + lustrate right as the attack lands. If you are a warrior inner beast it. I like this hard mode fight. Not quite the AFK snooze fest the last ones have been. Once you get the rhythm of the attack as a healer you can easily cleric a good portion of the fight too to help with the dps check :) super fun.

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Originally Posted by sydh

Kindly gtfo out with this idea please. I'll use it or not if I care to but I'll not have any of my skills disabled in non-pvp content.

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I don't even like my skills disabled in PvP content either... it's not like there's a single one which gives you a significant advantage in combat.

Even though I've cleared turn 9 countless times pre and after 2,4 as MNK. First times I ran it on my alt SCH to get FCoB unlocked and to get the book I didn't DPS due to not feeling comfortable in knowing the fight as healer well enough to risk switching. Couple of clears and now able to switch in and out of Cleric Stance.

To be honest, saying it is your first time, or even only dnoe it maybe once before and not stance dancing, most will be fine.But having numerous clears, you know when it is safe to dance. But overall, it does make it a bit more challenging on harder content, but it does make you a better healer as you are able to read when big heals are needed and when you can step back to DPS or to regen mana.

By trying to oversimplify an dmake things too easy it causes complecency, whereas pushing yourself and challenging yourself aids in improvement, not just in game, in everything.