Real Money to Get In-Game Currency: Eternal Bond Edition

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Trading Gil for cash shop purchased items does not create the $$ incentives that drive gil farmers to flood the economy with gil that leads to hyperinflation. I don't have a problem with it. It also gives access to cash shop items to those players that do not want to spend their own RL $$ on "optional" items (whatever their reasons may be).

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I'll concede that I would be less averse to this if all cash shop items were tradeable. I think in that case the circulation of gil would even out more than it can with a limited item like wedding bands. It drives business away from gil farmers, and gives more options to players on both sides of the fence. It would also allow for scenarios in which, for example, someone can't afford a $40 wedding nor the in-game cost, but might be able to supplement the gil they do have by selling a lower cost cash shop item in-game in order to then buy the wedding bands in-game. It's still all a bit too much like what is seen in f2p titles for my liking, but if we're going to go this route I'd rather open up the entire cash shop to this sort of trade than have it be limited to this particular instance.

That said, such a system still inevitably favors the wealthy in real-life. The terms of generating money are a little more fair in-game, whereas I might be able to spend what amounts to 15 minutes of RL work for 4-5 million gil, and that same amount is equivalent to 3 hours of RL work for another player.

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Originally Posted by Krr

Ahahaha. The official dev response is "We won't punish you, but please don't so we don't have to write more code to prevent this?"

This really highlights the naivety of the design team.

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They are probably writing a fix as I type. This stuff takes time and has to be fully tested before it can be implemented.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

As you know, the promise wristlets were designed to be tradable so that one person would be able to purchase a pair of wristlets and gift one to their partner.

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System needs to be changed. The bracelet is tethered or linked whoever purchased it. The given bracelet will have no other choices but to marry the giver. Another term, bracelet cannot let loose in the wild. Much like a craft system with crafted by whom. Whoever got that bracelet with that name on it, you can only Eternal Bind that person.

This way, it will put stop on selling it.

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Originally Posted by Krr

If S-E isn't going to take official action against people exchanging $ for Gil using their own system, I'm going to make the game (and their jobs) that much more miserable by making my next paycheck's fun money portion go toward 3-5 million gil in my pocket.

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So, can we just walk through this for a second?

You want gil. Someone else wants cash shop goodies. You have money. They don't. You buy cash shop goodies and sell it to them for gil. You now have gil, they now have cash shop goodies.

Who, in this equation, is miserable?

As for "upsetting the economy": if you're worried about this happening then you don't actually understand how the in-game economy works.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

Who, in this equation, is miserable?

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Me, because I'll have to shake my head at money undeservedly being thrown at SE again for no reason.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

So, can we just walk through this for a second?

You want gil. Someone else wants cash shop goodies. You have money. They don't. You buy cash shop goodies and sell it to them for gil. You now have gil, they now have cash shop goodies.

Who, in this equation, is miserable?

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Square Enix, who apparently claims they do not want me doing this for the sake of their long-run profits and public respectability, the rest of the playerbase posting here, who claims they do not want me doing this.
People using Party Finder to find actual parties, and not illicitly exchanged supposedly un-marketable goods like wedding bracelets for sale.
Also, anyone in the playerbase who cannot afford to directly convert their real-life money (used for rent, food, medicine, or other necessities) into gil (which I should stress is a form of player power, in the form of market power,) on top of a $15/mo subscription fee.

Anyone playing the game who has neither real-life income to spare on virtual bracelets nor five million gil in their pocket ingame but wants to feel like they have a fair chance at either.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Me, because I'll have to shake my head at money undeservedly being thrown at SE again for no reason.

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So you prefer that only people with real money have access to cash shop items and no one else?

Because "no cash shop" is no longer an option and hasn't been for years, speaking from a strictly business perspective.

This thought came to mind in light of this ability to sell the bonds for in game currency.

Maybe the best way to counter this it to reward loyal subscribers with funds to purchase items from the cash shop. By this I mean something as simple as a 10 dollar fund that can only be used in the cash shop and you obtain as a loyalty reward for every 6 months subscribed.

So basically you get 20 a year, 5 short of buying mount, enough to buy 1 plat bond or 2 gold bonds, enough to buy 2 phials or purchase 20 dyes.

Heck it even be just the right number to purchase all 4 minions.

I think it could be a potential happy compromise, leave the bonds sellable as is but allowing a loyalty benefit for time subbed would add incentive to stay subbed and feel like they aren't having to spend extra cash to obtain the cash shop items.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

As you know, the promise wristlets were designed to be tradable so that one person would be able to purchase a pair of wristlets and gift one to their partner.

While the trading and selling of these items for gil is not against the terms of service, in the event this type of trend continues and topics continue to arise regarding whether or not this is considered real-money trading, we will have no choice but to change the design of this system. Therefore we would like players to stop selling and trading the bracelets for gil so that they can continue to be used for their intended purpose.

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I have a solution.
first make it so only 1 set of 2 wristlets can be bought from each premium tree(this should be incase the person changes their mind later and wants a better package)
second make the wristlets unique/untradable.
third make it so you have to select your partner from a list of friends on the mogstation
forth make is so should you lose said item for whatever reason they can be bought chealy from the calamity salvager

the first 3 would kill the whole idea of people buying the wristlets and selling them.
don't bother making the free ones untradable, they are free afterall.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

So you prefer that only people with real money have access to cash shop items and no one else?

Because "no cash shop" is no longer an option and hasn't been for years, speaking from a strictly business perspective.

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"No cash shop" worked fine for FFXIV's first year. It would still work fine if there weren't some people who're all too happy to throw their money at SE for stuff that should be included in the monthly subscription.

The only opinion I have on this is how much of a joke they made the mechanics of this. What *should* have happened is the single wristlet option gets auto bound to the selected character with an option to pair to another once only. If you get the two wristlet option then one of them gets auto bound to you and the second one remains transferable yet is paired ONLY to the buyers by default. A window can pop up with a giant warning about accepting the proposal binds the wristlet to you.

I honestly don't think they counted on their players being so scummy as to turn a fun thing into an rmt option. The system IS going to change though as I can see the rmt people using their stolen CC's to open an account, buy wristlets, and sell them off as fast as possible before the cards are reported stolen. Legit players are going to end up with lost gil and revoked wristlets with the current system.

Bayohne just gave a response and says its fine to sell it for Gil but people are still going on about it.

It is not like you cannot do it yourself unless you are under age and parents wont let you use their credit card for cash shop.

makes me wonder.

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Originally Posted by Airget

This thought came to mind in light of this ability to sell the bonds for in game currency.

Maybe the best way to counter this it to reward loyal subscribers with funds to purchase items from the cash shop. By this I mean something as simple as a 10 dollar fund that can only be used in the cash shop and you obtain as a loyalty reward for every 6 months subscribed.

So basically you get 20 a year, 5 short of buying mount, enough to buy 1 plat bond or 2 gold bonds, enough to buy 2 phials or purchase 20 dyes.

Heck it even be just the right number to purchase all 4 minions.

I think it could be a potential happy compromise, leave the bonds sellable as is but allowing a loyalty benefit for time subbed would add incentive to stay subbed and feel like they aren't having to spend extra cash to obtain the cash shop items.

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if this was the case, i'd be happy and keep on playing. i really like this idea.

EDIT: OR, we could just remove the cash shop... *hush* let a man dream....

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Originally Posted by Riepah

"No cash shop" worked fine for FFXIV's first year. It would still work fine if there weren't some people who're all too happy to throw their money at SE for stuff that should be included in the monthly subscription.

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Sure, it worked "fine". But bottom line-examining business execs don't like "fine", and when they can point to other competitors in the market doing better than "fine" with both a sub and a cash shop (hello WoW), they don't wind up very pleased when a developer starts talking about morals and unquantifiable respectability.

Who is right and who is wrong is debatable and varies on a case by case basis. But until the devs come up with an argument better than "We could make even more money with the cash shop, but we'd really rather not", you can expect the shop to stick around. Because until it is demonstrably unprofitable it's not going anywhere. For better or worse.

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Originally Posted by HeroSamson

Bayohne just gave a response and says its fine to sell it for Gil but people are still going on about it.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Therefore we would like players to stop selling and trading the bracelets for gil so that they can continue to be used for their intended purpose.

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Huh? Did he now...? Seems like someone has some selective reading.

Basically its not against the TOS to sell the bracelets for gil but they prefer people not to do it.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

SE has always had a stance that people cannot profit via the use of real money.

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There shouldn't be a sub fee then, because I make millions per day by paying about $15 a month to play the game. Buying the bracelet for real money and then selling said bracelet in game for in game gil isn't RMT because of that middle step that people always forget about. It's kind of important.

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Originally Posted by Krr

The majority of RMT botting in FFXIV is accomplished through covert marketboard use, though, because generating raw gil in FFXIV is inhumanly inefficient and time consuming even for them.

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Which is genius really. It's basically an endless cycle of selling players gil back to them at the end of the day.

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Originally Posted by 314159265358979323846264338327

There shouldn't be a sub fee then, because I make millions per day by paying about $15 a month to play the game. Buying the bracelet for real money and then selling said bracelet in game for in game gil isn't RMT because of that middle step that people always forget about. It's kind of important.

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What a way to twist the entire meaning. Go you. The sub fee has nothing to do with us as players in the context of the current debate in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

As you know, the promise wristlets were designed to be tradable so that one person would be able to purchase a pair of wristlets and gift one to their partner.

While the trading and selling of these items for gil is not against the terms of service, in the event this type of trend continues and topics continue to arise regarding whether or not this is considered real-money trading, we will have no choice but to change the design of this system. Therefore we would like players to stop selling and trading the bracelets for gil so that they can continue to be used for their intended purpose.

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Originally Posted by Krr

Ahahaha. The official dev response is "We won't punish you, but please don't so we don't have to write more code to prevent this?"

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This reminds me of the BLM "Exploit" in 1.x for Garuda... "Hey guys, we know this is an issue so please stop while we try to figure out how to fix it"

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Originally Posted by 314159265358979323846264338327

Buying the bracelet for real money and then selling said bracelet in game for in game gil isn't RMT because of that middle step that people always forget about. It's kind of important.

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Cash shop alone is by definition RMT. You spend real money, you get in-game item.

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RMT is defined as the selling and buying of virtual assets for real-world money. Virtual assets can include, but is not limited to:
•Accounts
•Characters
•In-game Currency (Gil)
•In-game Service
•In-game item

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Game companies do this shit all the time and it offsets certain elements of the economy until its becomes the norm. It will most likely get worse because it is a slippery slope.

The kicker are the dyes for $1. Complete nickel and dime fuckary after releasing Gold and Silver in game.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

Huh? Did he now...? Seems like someone has some selective reading.

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And that would be you. Go re-read Bayohne's post. The problem is that these threads keep popping up about it, not that it's going on. They're only stepping in at all because it's causing more of a fuss than they want to deal with.

Ahaha this is by far the most amusing thing that's going on in my bland, bland life.

If anyone wants a plat bracelet for 6 mil in Tonberry (typical PF sales price), lemme know. If you buy two (that is, it's unique so you'll have to put the first one in your retainer's) I'll make it 10 mil for both. Or nearest offer.

I take payment in lump sum, in shards (50 each), in det IV materia (400k each) and in pentamelded ruby accessories (considered full 6 mil for the full set. Must pay the difference if buying two)

Limited supply of 2 max (I'm not loaded bro)

Serious offers only please.

This is so golden.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

And that would be you. Go re-read Bayohne's post. The problem is that these threads keep popping up about it, not that it's going on. They're only stepping in at all because it's causing more of a fuss than they want to deal with.

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I stated this for a reason.

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Originally Posted by ReplicaX

1.0 Garuda Exploit Statement all over again. They are still going to sell them.

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Same thing happened with Garuda in 1.0 and her Exploit before it was patched. Players were afraid of bans until Yoshi said basically the same words as Bayohne now says. Which only encouraged ppl to do it as no actions against players were being enforced.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

And that would be you. Go re-read Bayohne's post.

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Huh...

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

As you know, the promise wristlets were designed to be tradable so that one person would be able to purchase a pair of wristlets and gift one to their partner.

While the trading and selling of these items for gil is not against the terms of service, in the event this type of trend continues and topics continue to arise regarding whether or not this is considered real-money trading, we will have no choice but to change the design of this system. Therefore we would like players to stop selling and trading the bracelets for gil so that they can continue to be used for their intended purpose.

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I'm having an issue seeing where he says that it's cool? Here, I'll even bold the sections where I seem the most confused about it. So, the bracelets are designed to be bought for your partner... Okay, seems cool.
Not against TOS... I'm cool with that too since they didn't foresee this issue. It's technically not against the current rules.
But... see now the last one is where it gets funny.
"Please stop selling and trading bracelets for gil" but go for it because I'm fine with it?

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Originally Posted by MaethusXion

This reminds me of the BLM "Exploit" in 1.x for Garuda... "Hey guys, we know this is an issue so please stop while we try to figure out how to fix it"

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It's doubly confusing and nonsensical because claiming loot and world firsts from broken encounters in 2.0 was considered no bueno, and there were open statements that you would be banned for doing so. The result? Top-tier raiders don't even attempt to find or reproduce these methods.

Imagine an endgame raiding world where S-E said they wouldn't penalize players for doing that. And well...now we have an analogue with this!

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

As you know, the promise wristlets were designed to be tradable so that one person would be able to purchase a pair of wristlets and gift one to their partner.

While the trading and selling of these items for gil is not against the terms of service, in the event this type of trend continues and topics continue to arise regarding whether or not this is considered real-money trading, we will have no choice but to change the design of this system. Therefore we would like players to stop selling and trading the bracelets for gil so that they can continue to be used for their intended purpose.

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Thank god finally. Just make the Bracelets giftable through MogStation so as to make your friend receive those in game SOULBOUND to them, voila, no more RMT.

it looks like the easiest way to actually do this is by soul bind the wristlet, like phantasia potion. ( for who not aware how this wirstlet currently work go to this link a )

Now that's aside, I keep failing to see how this will turn to bigger problem; yes, it is currently a problem that created because I want to bond with x and so on are currently still hot, but this wrislet itself, not for everyone (let's be frank, not every one has "Friend"), the more serve example is selling subscriptions for GIL that everyone will want to (this what Wildstar and EVE use) yet it works very well because the market is stable by now. ( Wildstar economy meltdown caused by exploit) TERA, Neverwinternight using a similar system for their cosmetic items as well.
This price will change, the more player sees this opportunity, the more they want to join the bandwagon and start selling the wristlet as well, more competition = price plummeted, problem solved by itself.

and about gearing up, yes it sound wow P2W, but crafted ilvl 110 unmelded are pointless. even after meld it is easily on par or out perform by most gear in the game without even trying.

I hate the notion that this the way they start to take, and force player to adapt to it; but unfortunately no mater how good Yoshi-P handling this Square Enix as company is rubish, FFXIV is the only saving grace from my perspective.

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Originally Posted by Hyunckel

Thank god finally. Just make the Bracelets giftable through MogStation so as to make your friend receive those in game SOULBOUND to them, voila, no more RMT.

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You can't RP with that and they made this system for RPers.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

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If something is not against ToS, it's fine and you can do it without punishment. He said it's not against ToS, so it's fine.
The only reason they'd 'like' for players to not do it, even though it's allowed, is so people won't complain until they have to change something that would naturally resolve itself in a week or two anyways.
That's why the 'topics continue to arise regarding whether or not this is considered real-money trading' bit is right in front of the last sentence.
SE doesn't consider it RMT, but if players complain enough, they'll have to hunker down so they don't lose customers.

This is most likely SE testing how we respond to being able to sell things from the mogstation for future items they're bound to add.

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Originally Posted by Crankysorc

If something is not against ToS, it's fine and you can do it without punishment. He said it's not against ToS, so it's fine.
The only reason they'd 'like' for players to not do it, even though it's allowed, is so people won't complain until they have to change something that would naturally resolve itself in a week or two anyways.
That's why the 'topics continue to arise regarding whether or not this is considered real-money trading' bit is right in front of the last sentence.
SE doesn't consider it RMT, but if players complain enough, they'll have to hunker down so they don't lose customers.

This is most likely SE testing how we respond to being able to sell things from the mogstation for future items they're bound to add.

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I think you might be right. I read the JP version and it also came off as a "This is not punishable and not against TOS. But we don't like all this talk of RMT, so we're going to ask people to please stop trading for gil"

Not that I particularly approve or disapprove of this (I haven't decided my stance on this yet), but yeah, your conclusion seems right.

It is nice to see JP players have a problem with it as well, though they're less vocal so their thread is only 5 pages long, not 15 :D.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

You can't RP with that and they made this system for RPers.

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You can't roleplay because your SO didn't "trade" you a Wedding Wristlet in a trade window? In my idea of a fix, you'd get your Wristlet sent to you ingame via MogPost and have it soulbound to you. That way you'll still receive it as a gift but people wouldn't be able to trade it for gil anymore (unless people are uber trusty of random people promising to send gil in exchange...)

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Originally Posted by Hyunckel

Thank god finally. Just make the Bracelets giftable through MogStation so as to make your friend receive those in game SOULBOUND to them, voila, no more RMT.

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All that does is make the process a bit more convoluted.

1. Add to friends list
2. Request & Receive <x> gil from new friend
3. Send item through Mog Station
4. Remove from Friends List (i.e. Trade Complete)

Best you could probably do would be to make it even more onerous by saying that the person who receives the gift must go through the quest with the person who gave it to them, which is at least a lot of time/effort investment just to get a few items. If they annul the ceremony, I guess they'd get the outfits + hairstyle, but not the mount.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

You can't RP with that and they made this system for RPers.

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RP is out of the window as soon as what you're looking for can't be acquired unless you pay with a currency that's not even available in your world. How're you going to explain that away? One day, randomly, for no reason at all whatsoever, you received a letter from an unknown benefactor containing just what you needed to get married in style, and so did your spouse - and if that hadn't happened, you couldn't get the wedding dress you wanted, or pick the background colour and music for your ceremony?

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

As you know, the promise wristlets were designed to be tradable so that one person would be able to purchase a pair of wristlets and gift one to their partner.

While the trading and selling of these items for gil is not against the terms of service, in the event this type of trend continues and topics continue to arise regarding whether or not this is considered real-money trading, we will have no choice but to change the design of this system. Therefore we would like players to stop selling and trading the bracelets for gil so that they can continue to be used for their intended purpose.

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Maybe it would be possible to make a "set" vers. which include 2 bracelets, a bracelet which we already can buy (and untradeable) and perhaps another that can be traded, but can only be "linked" with the character that bought it? In a way that won't make it possible to get bonded to another person that the one that bought the set.

This way the "old ones" can be made untradeable and we should close this problem for good.

This will be irony if FFXIV:Heavensward (3.0) will fail because of cash shop.

The 1.0 pretty fail because of technichal thing, but 3.0 will fail because of CASH SHOP ?

are you fcking kidding me ?! /laugh

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

Huh...



I'm having an issue seeing where he says that it's cool? Here, I'll even bold the sections where I seem the most confused about it. So, the bracelets are designed to be bought for your partner... Okay, seems cool.
Not against TOS... I'm cool with that too since they didn't foresee this issue. It's technically not against the current rules.
But... see now the last one is where it gets funny.
"Please stop selling and trading bracelets for gil" but go for it because I'm fine with it?

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Yeah, because you bolded parts and are ignoring the part in between, which comes before and is indicated as the reason for your 2nd bolded part. Reading 101.

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Originally Posted by Griever_Zero

Maybe it would be possible to make a "set" vers. which include 2 bracelets, a bracelet which we already can buy (and untradeable) and perhaps another that can be traded, but can only be "linked" with the character that bought it? In a way that won't make it possible to get bonded to another person that the one that bought the set.

This way the "old ones" can be made untradeable and we should close this problem for good.

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If people just want to get the outfits and the hairstyle, this could still be abused to a certain degree by just going through the quest with that person to a certain point, then annulling the bond, which destroys the bracelets but you keep the outfits/hairstyle. But, it still probably is preferable. Alternately, they could make it so that the quest can be started either if a) the parties are both equipped with the bracelets, or b) one of the two members of the party has one bracelet equipped + a second one in inventory for their partner, and it'd be traded as part of the process. Either way probably requires some sort of programming to happen; in the meantime, they may have to simply make it untradeable if current trends continue.

Is the bracelet selling really such a big thing on other servers? Right now on mine there is a grand total of one person trying to sell one via PF; apparently no one is interested in buying because they've re-upped the PF for three hours now.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

Is the bracelet selling really such a big thing on other servers? Right now on mine there is a grand total of one person trying to sell one via PF; apparently no one is interested in buying because they've re-upped the PF for three hours now.

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My BF saw one person on Tonberry trying to sell one for 6 million gil this morning, I don't know if they sold it though. When I checked it was just regular PF groups.