Novus Meld Failure - Remove Please

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Originally Posted by Kimikryo

And why would I want gatherer/crafter gear to Spirit Bound for my Novus?

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He was talking about the spirit bond system in general and I have to agree with him.

It's weird design that I have to deliberately gimp my character in order to get a shot at a class IV materia, because I can't convert the blue gear I normally wear.
But I guess they have to create a demand for ilvl 90 greens somehow...

I lost my first tier 4 Det last night. I wept :(

Half a million down the drain. Le sigh. Maybe I'll try spiritbonding. What is the best gear to try and get tier 4's?

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

The chances look perfectly reasonable to me. (Especially compared to overmelding.)
You also don't lose your alexandrite upon failure.

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Id rather loose the Alexandrite than these G4 materias.

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

The chances look perfectly reasonable to me. (Especially compared to overmelding.)
You also don't lose your alexandrite upon failure.

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Prices on Ragnarok stonewall any chance at reliably buying Materia at Grade 3 and above. (Grade I and above for anything "Savage", Quickarm/Battledance and spell speed.)

18,000+ Gil for some Grade 3s, for those mentioned in Grade I above, 4~5,000 for starting prices.

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Originally Posted by coldreactive

Prices on Ragnarok stonewall any chance at reliably buying Materia at Grade 3 and above. (Grade I and above for anything "Savage", Quickarm/Battledance and spell speed.)

18,000+ Gil for some Grade 3s, for those mentioned in Grade I above, 4~5,000 for starting prices.

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On Moogle the tier 2 Crits are selling for about 45k each. Dets are about 25-30k. Strangely tier 3's are only about 10k each. Tier 4's are 450k+.

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Originally Posted by BristolRuss

On Moogle the tier 2 Crits are selling for about 45k each. Dets are about 25-30k. Strangely tier 3's are only about 10k each. Tier 4's are 450k+.

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http://i.imgur.com/sY6c700.jpg

I also won't even bother spiritbonding efficiently, since that takes too much preparation and whatnot. I also only have level 50 in leatherworker, and don't have the logic / intellect to make a level 50 macro for HQ'ing everything. All I can do to make money as such, is make raptor leather, or run as tank in adventurer in need (I also will not speed run, and have a macro set up to tell people when I tank that I will not speed run. I also won't do EXs, or Coil turn 5+)

No risk no reward, pretty simple really. I mean in the end it's a meld.
If it bugs you so much upgrade a cheaper stat.

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Originally Posted by Zeke_Anderson

No risk no reward, pretty simple really. I mean in the end it's a meld.
If it bugs you so much upgrade a cheaper stat.

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Sure. *upgrades MND on BLM Novus* /trollface

I'm hoping changes come in 2.4 Because I'm about to start melding my 1st weapon/only weapon.

I will use other weapons on other jobs it's not worth the effort of farming gil/converting gear, when I only play 1-2 hours a day.

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Originally Posted by CrystalRainbow

I'm hoping changes come in 2.4 Because I'm about to start melding my 1st weapon/only weapon.

I will use other weapons on other jobs it's not worth the effort of farming gil/converting gear, when I only play 1-2 hours a day.

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Yeah, same. Relic is the "Catch up" weapon, but for Novus, it's just insane. Most of us people won't touch High Allagan drops, in ever... so playing catchup for novus alone may take until 3.0. 2.4 will have another relic step alone.

You don't "need" to min max your Novus, it really doesn't change that much in terms of dps due to them being secondary stats. The whole reason why the fail chance exists is to make it so that it's a better idea to spread out your stats unless you've got holes in your pockets. There's also a high chance that once we enter into the expansion that the Novus melds will stop being relevant after we upgrade the relic weapon past Nexus.

Personally I try and meld Alexandrite as soon as I get them so that I don't get footed with a large Materia bill just because the market is booming that day.

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Originally Posted by Parz3val

Worst. Argument. Ever.

"Handouts," my suggestion isn't asking we not put the work in to collect both 75 Alexanderite's & 75 Materia's

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Except you don't have to go after the best of the best (which gives... what... 50 extra damage?). YOU want the best, without going into the trouble of getting it. You can throw a different stat on it and not have to pay the huge prices Savage Might/Aim IV costs. I myself know what I am getting into with trying to max it, but I enjoy the gambling aspect of getting materia/melding it. However if I wanted to save money, I'd have gone spell speed. SE gave you your alternative, but you complain because you want to get something without the "work" required to get it.

Heck, I was surprised to see the high percentages for final meld in the first place. I was expecting 30%.

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Originally Posted by coldreactive

Sure. *upgrades MND on BLM Novus* /trollface

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Considering I saw a spell speed, parry nexus pally last night anything is possible. That being said if it's too expensive for you to handle maybe int would be the way to go.

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Originally Posted by Magis

Heck, I was surprised to see the high percentages for final meld in the first place. I was expecting 30%.

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I haven't seen the last meld percentage. I assumed it was like a normal 5th materia meld and had ~11% meld chance.

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Originally Posted by Magis

Except you don't have to go after the best of the best (which gives... what... 50 extra damage?). YOU want the best, without going into the trouble of getting it. You can throw a different stat on it and not have to pay the huge prices Savage Might/Aim IV costs. I myself know what I am getting into with trying to max it, but I enjoy the gambling aspect of getting materia/melding it. However if I wanted to save money, I'd have gone spell speed. SE gave you your alternative, but you complain because you want to get something without the "work" required to get it.

Heck, I was surprised to see the high percentages for final meld in the first place. I was expecting 30%.

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Oh god, that'd be awful. % are a good way to keep people on their toes but because % are possibilities things happen it is completely reasonable to expect someone is going to get royally screwed, I don't think that is fair.

Arguing "work" in a % system is a bit awkward since some people get through with 0 extra work and others with hundreds of hours extra work. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask SE to limit the range of work to a tighter band.

% breaking systems reminds me so much of very popular korean f2p mechanics, would love to see the entire materia system get redone because of it - though that is likely never to happen (at least they removed the breaking of the item itself).

Again % do not assure an amount of work, so arguing "work" with % is very weird (you can talk about work in large data sets as averages but as individuals its different). It would be like saying two people work and get paid for 30 day and night cycles and it was fair that one worked 20 hours because the sun moved faster that day and the other worked 100 (assuming people live on a terrible planet.. lol). If you had these two guys work for the next hundred years it might average out.

Materia's IV are overrated, overpriced and a complete bait. You can do a perfectly fine Novus without a single materia IV. There's this ridiculous perception that you are not optimizing your weapon if you bump 3 stats on it, but it's just that, a silly perception.

SCH - 21 Piety, 21 Det, 33 Crit
WHM - 21 Piety, 21 Det, 33 SS
DRG/MNK/BRD - 21 Det, 21 Acc, 33 Crit
PLD/WAR - 33 Parry, 33 Acc, 9 Det

And bam, you have a Novus that costs 100k so gil is not an issue anymore.
Having 10 Crit instead of say 10 accuracy means your character has like 0.8% more critical hit chance, yes, not even 1%, you are paying 5-7 millions for a 0.8% more critical hit chance, which by the way doesn't come for free because you are trading it for 10 points of accuracy that could avoid you having to eat food every time you step onto endgame.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Arguing "work" in a % system is a bit awkward since some people get through with 0 extra work and others with hundreds of hours extra work. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask SE to limit the range of work to a tighter band.

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Agreed.
Only lucky people argue in the favor of frustrating RNG anyway.

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WHM - 21 Piety, 21 Det, 33 SS

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Yup, pretty much what I am going to do to my Thyrus.

Also: I seriously doubt that this game is even tuned in a way to make such harsh minmax/Theorycrafting necessary. So far it seems to me that
Proper encounter execution >>>> raw DPS/HPS/TPS

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Agreed.
Only lucky people argue in the favor of frustrating RNG anyway.

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Or people who love to be hurt. . :D

Although there would be cases where RNG is nice, for example imagine critical hits running on a cycle rather than being random. 10% -> every 10 hits is a critical. People would load up criticals and you would create a really weird meta game. However, in a pure %/RNG system you could get someone hitting all 10 critical hits in a row and owning someone only due to luck, that is were you could introduce weight %s that feel random but also reliable (will drop % as too many happen, boost % as too few happen - this system may be in place already for criticals as I haven't cared to check, but it is an example you can apply to loot too).

Of course there are a lot of ways to tighten the band or at minimum lower the crappier end of the stick. My example for novus without changing the system to much was that each failed materia leaves behind a dust/powder of that materia type and grade you can use to help affix the next materia (so you're limiting the break to a chance that if happens you won't likely see again thanks to the dust of the previous materia).

To be honest I dont mind the failure system. It will make the novus feel like a bigger achievement, when I finish it. Going for 18/33/24 as BRD. Almost there.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Although there would be cases where RNG is nice, for example imagine critical hits running on a cycle rather than being random. 10% -> every 10 hits is a critical. People would load up criticals and you would create a really weird meta game. However, in a pure %/RNG system you could get someone hitting all 10 critical hits in a row and owning someone only due to luck, that is were you could introduce weight %s that feel random but also reliable (will drop % as too many happen, boost % as too few happen - this system may be in place already for criticals as I haven't cared to check, but it is an example you can apply to loot too).

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Please don't compare crits in fights with a system like this.
Failure systems like this have one purpose and one purpose only: Creation of a Time/Gil sink with the least dev effort possible.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Please don't compare crits in fights with a system like this.
Failure systems like this have one purpose and one purpose only: Creation of a Time/Gil sink with the least dev effort possible.

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:P, RNG is an encompassing unit - when I read you said only people who are lucky like RNG I read it as the whole unit not just relating to items (my bad). Definitely the whole purpose of RNG in items it to create time sink (and gil sink in materia's case).

I see you started around Sep 2014, at least for this account.. You'd love the old system, when the materia meld failed the whole item was destroyed (including previous materia melds).. lol. It was so painful XD.

I think if they are going to have failure on T4 materia's then the stat boost they give should have a much bigger impact. You would think that with such minimal increase, that everyone would be avoiding T4s, sense it makes little difference. But the prices show that it matters to a LOT of people. So I say, give T4 a bigger impact on the weapon, OR remove/reduce the fail rate. I know if they made it more useful to put T4 then their would be a bigger demand on the stuff. Maybe they need to institute a RNG chance of getting a 2nd materia when you SB or something to help with the huge demand, then the prices wouldn't be so bad. Heaven forbid they add more materia to quests.. or have a RNG chance of getting materia from all leve's or something. I'd say they don't really want to do that, but hey they put tons of T4 in the main storyline so... But I guess if they did that, who would SB at all?

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I see you started around Sep 2014, at least for this account.. You'd love the old system, when the materia meld failed the whole item was destroyed (including previous materia melds).. lol. It was so painful XD.

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WTF?!
Seriously?

Damn these Devs must be sadists. :D

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Originally Posted by The_Last_Dragoon

I haven't seen the last meld percentage. I assumed it was like a normal 5th materia meld and had ~11% meld chance.

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It's 60% or 50%, always forget.

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Originally Posted by Kiara1

It's kinda too late now, would be unfair to those of us who have already botched soo many materias. After paying almost 2 mil in materia and lost half of it I decided to go a cheaper route cause it wasn't worth it.

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So because of your pain, you want everyone else to experience that?

Besides, you can rework your Novus/Nexus at any time now. The rework you just strip off all of the "bad" stats and start melding on the ones you want. So if they made the melding process better, you could use it if you decide to change it to the expensive version at some later date.

On a side note, if $$ is an issue, you should absolutely go the cheap route (usually 33/23 of your best stat + det) to get the Novus *right now* so you can start working on your Nexus. When you have enough for the expensive version, you just strip off the unwanted stats (keeping the "good" ones you already have) and then add back in the "best" stats.

Start of my day... broke my 2nd T4 Det...

An asinine game design that comes from the east, I think. Usually used to coerce players into using the store mall/cash shop, etc. Also used to keep players playing. Example: Darkeden

Unfortunately, I think players from the east love that type of gameplay, hence it is so recurring in those games.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

And bam, you have a Novus that costs 100k so gil is not an issue anymore.

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Ahahahahaha. Looool. For 100k you may get the needed T1 materia these days, but not the whole meld, even with your stat table. T2 materia is the biggest impact after T4.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

Ahahahahaha. Looool. For 100k you may get the needed T1 materia these days, but not the whole meld, even with your stat table. T2 materia is the biggest impact after T4.

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T1 and T2 are trivial to farm yourself.
T3 is still easy, albeit time consuming.
T4 is the only problem here, because you cannot easily farm it yourself unless you can craft 3* 90s at will.

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Originally Posted by Gextiv

An asinine game design that comes from the east, I think. Usually used to coerce players into using the store mall/cash shop, etc. Also used to keep players playing. Example: Darkeden

Unfortunately, I think players from the east love that type of gameplay, hence it is so recurring in those games.

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While I agree that RNG BS like this is truly retarded design, I think the motivation this time is to give players the option of pumping up two stats to the max but make it unattractive to the majority at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Gextiv

Unfortunately, I think players from the east love that type of gameplay, hence it is so recurring in those games.

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We players from the east hate RNG as much as any other player.

Back on topic, I feel that most RNG in games should have a cap, in the form that the more times one fails the same action, the higher the success rate becomes for that particular one action. So on a 60% chance meld, the probability becomes say 65% after one fail, 70% after two fails, 80% after 4 fails, and at worst will guarantee a success on the 8th time.

With regards to having both Alexandrite farming and the melding, I feel the former is the effort put into the relic, the latter is that "extra mile" for the portion of the population who likes to customize and/or min-max their stats. The intent is clear when we consider that the Alexandrites aren't consumed on failures.

The game had attracted a lot of criticism from the so-called "hardcore" population, asking for more difficult content for the few, and this expensive bit of customization seems to fit that category. For the rest of us who really have no use for that extra mile of gear power, there are much cheaper alternatives in completing our Novus.

+1 Zfz

a lot of the tedious and boring stuff added to the relic system or other system of the game are there for please hardcore gamer. not the midcore nor the casual, only the small 3-7% of the population that ask long, hard and complexe stuff. but you know the best? this system don't work, since whatever the dev do the hardcore will always destroy the system. they have tons of time at them disposal and often are ready to do repetitive action for hours.

i fail to understand why it's soo important to please the hardcore gamer.... i means, it's impossible to please them from the start. whatever the dev try to do, the hardcore will always find a way to simply break it. the time they can invest in the game is far too important for create anything that will hold them for long. we can argue that it's not true, but for the past 10 years, the hardcore gamer in any mmorpg have prove it! extra hard content, tedious and long activity.... have never make them go slower, the one affected by this, are not the hardcore, but the rest of the population.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

it's not their fault if the Free Market economy of the Boards as set by the bot-army aka skynet

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fixed.
10char

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Originally Posted by Zfz

Back on topic, I feel that most RNG in games should have a cap, in the form that the more times one fails the same action, the higher the success rate becomes for that particular one action. So on a 60% chance meld, the probability becomes say 65% after one fail, 70% after two fails, 80% after 4 fails, and at worst will guarantee a success on the 8th time.

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Last time I saw this type of comment, I mentioned City of Heroes Streakbreaker mechanic as a way to go about doing it. Sure, at 60% you'd have a chance to fail every 2 out of 5 tries, but after a certain amount (pretty sure in this case it was 5, but I'm used to the Streakbreaker's usual out of 20), it'd succeed automatically.

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

The chances look perfectly reasonable to me. (Especially compared to overmelding.)
You also don't lose your alexandrite upon failure.

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I'd sooner lose the alexandrite than the materia, especially when melding T4s...

With heavensward out in a month or 2 those grade 4 prices should drop quite a bit expecially with new areas and the increased lvl cap making it easier. Could be tier 5 materia as well for the new level cap so beware.