Do you think the devs intended multi-flare blm?

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Perhaps I'm doing the math wrong though.

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The math is neglecting the Black Mages Astral Fire buff which stacks up to 3 times.

When you start with Fire III you gain full stacks of Astral Fire. On the other hand when you cast Fire II it only grants 1 stack of Astral Fire which requires another 2 Fire II for Raenryong to require the buffs I already got.

In my rotation all Fire II's and Flares are buffed with Astral Fire III and Raging Strikes
In Raenryong's rotation the first 2 Fire II's are gimped and the 3rd one has Astral Fire II and RS which leaves only his last Fire II at full buff as well as his 3 flare.

My damage is gonna be a straight up spike while Raenryong's will be a steady climb in which my rotation will end up with more damage overall because of it in the end. Since Raenryongs rotation gives me enough to overthrow him in a spike climb regardless of his initial advantage and that takes into consideration that all mobs are packed up so our 2 rotations could be casted at the same time.

There's a flaw in Raenryong rotation and that's the fact in starting with Fire II to begin with.

Flaw 1
It takes Fire II 3-4 mobs to beat my Fire 3. That's just the first cast and both are not buffed by anything. Note: I'm using Fire 3 to get Astral Fire III not for damage.

Flaw 2
Astral Fire III. I get it instantly while Raenryong wont have it until later in his rotation.

Flaw 3
Mobs have to gather. They aren't always neatly packed for convenience. I don't have to wait for them to bunch up since my Fire 3 targets 1 mob and by the time it in finishes all mobs will be on each other so starting with Fire II can miss mobs in that scenario.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

The math is neglecting the Black Mages Astral Fire buff which stacks up to 3 times.

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You think I would forget something so basic?

220 - raw F3
100 - raw F2
140 - AF1 F2
160 - AF2 F2
180 - AF3 F2

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

You think I would forget something so basic?

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My buddy Fafnir ran the numbers.

With your rotation you have to pull 10 mobs to beat my rotation.

He fixed your rotation by using RS after your first Fire II it out do my rotation after 8 mobs.

He did scenarios where you can do 1 less move by starting with RS and then doing 3 Fire II then Flarex3 and it takes 5 mobs to beat my rotation.

Yet your time adjustment argument is moot. Mobs have certain amount of HP and after certain amount of damage they die. So n becomes an unreliable variable after certain damage is dealt. Meaning a rotation has to be constantly adjusted to represent that.

In the case of Brayflox Hardmode that initial big pull can die within 18 seconds since mobs should be dying within your first rotation anyway and it will only get shorter with better gear.

It's not "my" rotation or "my" argument. I'm just weighing in with the condensed numbers. If you can't read or understand what numbers mean, that's fine. But don't attribute my position to that of someone else's.

"Time spent" doing the rotation is also dumb as hell because it's a whopping 0.5 seconds difference. Wow. Amazing.

2 BLMs doing fire 3, fire 2, fire 2, raging strikes, flare, convert/swiftcast, flare, mega-ether, flare, all dead.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

snip

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So why you salty? Damage changes mob HP does not.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

2 BLMs doing fire 3, fire 2, fire 2, raging strikes, flare, convert/swiftcast, flare, mega-ether, flare, all dead.

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This guy gets it or girl.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

So why you salty? Damage changes mob HP does not.

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I was agreeing with you to begin with. I'm salty because you can't read.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

My buddy Fafnir ran the numbers.

With your rotation you have to pull 10 mobs to beat my rotation.

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I'd like to see the math on that. Most people can't perform basic math.

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He fixed your rotation by using RS after your first Fire II it out do my rotation after 8 mobs.

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With my latency, you won't always have it up for the final Flare if you do that. Though I suppose if you're closer you may be able to.

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Yet your time adjustment argument is moot. Mobs have certain amount of HP and after certain amount of damage they die. So n becomes an unreliable variable after certain damage is dealt. Meaning a rotation has to be constantly adjusted to represent that.

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Every mob has a set amount of HP. That doesn't mean DPS is an insignificant figure. n remains constant until you begin singletargetting one mob, except in fringe cases (as aoe damage is ~the same on all). You friend's math is wrong anyway for getting such a high n - it comes out as 4~.

My items haven't changed. Still avg ilvl 96.

Was taken on my last soldiery run of Brayflox HM speed run last week.

Food is Mustard and Egg for cheap crit increase. Astral Fire 3 and Raging Strikes are the only actual damage increases for flare. High Crit 2576.

http://i.imgur.com/qd6D4MH.jpg

Will upload one without FoE later that takes out the bard from the equation. for people that are "waiting".

Taken today in Halatali HM. No defense debuff on mobs from the dungeons trap.

Fully buffed Flare. Black truffle risotto NQ, X-Pot of Int HQ, FoE + Battle Voice, Astral Fire III, and RS. Crit damage. 4356

http://i.imgur.com/LC7aJkb.jpg

If this is the kind of crit damage I can do with ilvl96 those that are nearing ilvl110 should be doing way more than I.

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Originally Posted by Raenryong

Most people can't perform basic math.

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I used to do theorycrafting and used to take every constant variable possible into consideration. The math for the most part on paper can be made to look equivalent with little to no difference but there's always things that happen that occur within every situation that are never taken into consideration with basic math like "equations" that's why I didn't even want to bother with your math at all yet that's why your math irked me the wrong way already.

On paper your equation math can made to be look good hell many rotations can. Yet if it doesn't take the classes strong points into consideration, in the case of a blm that being crit % damage since they are a burst job, the math becomes moot. If it doesn't take the mobs HP into consideration, it's moot, since it ignores the fact that you wont have the liberty to do that many moves. As an example. Brayflox HM with 2 ilvl90 blms, 1 war tank, and healer putting dps, it used to be 1 blm did 6 moves and the other blm did 7 moves to clear the mobs. So between the 2 blm it was a total of 13 moves. Yet now due to the increase of our damage we no longer do that many moves in fact we do 5 moves each making it a total of 10 to kill all the mobs. Also like the flaw I mentioned, which is simply game mechanics, that if you start with the cast of Fire II and mobs are gathering like in the case of Brayflox you'll end up either having to wait for mobs to gather and potentially miss mobs which gimps your rotations potential or because you decided to start Fire II you get aggro from extra mobs and gain aggro which can get you killed or get a debuff such as paralyze which will ruin your rotation output.

Yet I should apologize honestly I shouldn't have bothered arguing it because what you were presenting was equation math which works well on paper and the overall differential is that it wasn't really theorycrafting for specific situations.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Taken today in Halatali HM with defense debuff on mobs from the dungeons trap.

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I corrected this phrase for you, no need to thank me.

The pictures aren't that helpful, unfortunately :x all it illustrates is burst damage, which is obviously not the same as DPS. I know you're obviously opposed to parsers so won't get those though :p

Crit% is irrelevant if we're just comparing base rotations, unless one skill has higher native crit as it is a constant. Crit damage increases your average output by a factor of [1 + ((Critrate%/100) * (Critdamage%/100))] - where Critdamage%/100 is a constant due to how they are handled in this game. As it is a constant multiplier unless Critrate% changes, it can be neglected when doing comparisons.

You are right in saying that you can make more accurate (but specific) models if you impose a certain amount of moves - in which case your rotation would be superior (since you want AF3 prior to Flares). The rotation I listed is superior in general situations, however.

Starting with Fire2 is no problem since you can Quelling Strikes it and you only need to hit 4 mobs with the first Fire2 to make it exceed the other rotation.

"Equation math" is very powerful as long as you take account of conditions and scenarios properly. A mathematical model is only as powerful as how specific/sophisticated it is. A powerful one is much better than a parse - parses are merely used to collect data (ie - does the (controlled) reality reflect the predictions of this model? If not, refine the model).