DIP, DUCK, DIVE, DODGE!

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Originally Posted by Dyne

Let me make another scenario. You are a bystander. A tire just fell off a fast moving truck and it is now flying towards you at 80 mph, you only have less than second to make a decision, what do you do?
A) Stand there and take it because you think it will only cost you 1000 hit points (Strategic turnbased RPG style)
B) Block it with your hands because you think it will only cost you 500 hit points (Strategic turnbased RPG style)
C) Move out of the way by either sidestepping or jumping to the side (Action RPG style)
D) Do the matrix move

If you answered D, I will stab you in the jaw.

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But I like D. T_T

Since this is reality, of course C, because otherwise, I might be seriously hurt or even killed, and there are no potions to bring me back to health in seconds. :rolleyes:

But if it were possible (or I was a wrestler or something), A. Anyone can jump, pshhhhh. But it would look a lot more cool if I could stand there and let a tire hit me, and then walk away like nothing happened.

RPGs were originally developed because rendering a realistic and animated world was an impossible vision for ancient technology.

Now we have the technology to build better games and yet some developers still maintain elements which were created due to historical restrictions.

i saw a tera vid.
NOT IMPRESSED
it looked same old. Abd the guys who promoted it were rude.
Look up a french or german or sweden game play demo thing the guy is so effin rude XD.

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

i saw a tera vid.
NOT IMPRESSED
it looked same old. Abd the guys who promoted it were rude.
Look up a french or german or sweden game play demo thing the guy is so effin rude XD.

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People promoting it being rude does not automatically make the game bad. I'm not asking to turn the game into Tera. I am just asking for dodge buttons the same way people are asking for a jump button using the same battle system we have now. I also want that element of danger and desperation back. Remember times during Kirin fights when people actually reserve a spot in the big room as a hospital for people recovering and the whole fight can last 30 minutes to an hour depending how coordinated the linkshell is?

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Originally Posted by Tezz_Xivectro

I only read dodging. If it's anything like those MMO's where everyone is CONSTANTLY jumping around in battle then screw that.

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Honestly, this arguement is tired. If the player is remotely good they'll be concentrating on doing the right actions in battle, and won't have time to spam jumps. It does not happen, it never happened.

I'm surprised guild wars 2 hasn't been mentioned more, that game's got a hugely interactive battle system, it's shaping up really nicely.

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Originally Posted by Sephr

Honestly, this arguement is tired. If the player is remotely good they'll be concentrating on doing the right actions in battle, and won't have time to spam jumps. It does not happen, it never happened.

I'm surprised guild wars 2 hasn't been mentioned more, that game's got a hugely interactive battle system, it's shaping up really nicely.

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Well, for one, the entire game is currently zerg fest so your idea of "remotely good" just means that person just spamming skills. Do you remember in ffxi when you have to time stuns on mobs that can easily wipe your alliance? How is that different from timing dodge?

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

i saw a tera vid.
NOT IMPRESSED
it looked same old. Abd the guys who promoted it were rude.
Look up a french or german or sweden game play demo thing the guy is so effin rude XD.

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MMo game promoters are always like that.

I wonder who hires them. They're all obese and unkempt-looking. And their manner of speech isn't anything to write home about either. Like, seriously, give the job to someone who is actually nice to listen to... and look at.

Do you remember the guy for FFXIV? He was like some kind of hybrid cross between Rattata from pokemon and that deformed guy from The Goonies. And the way he talked about FFXIV in a gameplay demo, gosh! - it was like it was putting him to sleep (not that I blame him).

In regards to TERA though, I too think the game is far from perfect. But the combat is quite revolutionary and is something the MMO genre really needed (just as proof that MMOs don't necessarily need to be as you put it "same old"). Darkfall tried to implement something similar but didn't quite manage to pull it off.

So it's good that TERA pushed the boundaries a little.

We need games that push the genre forward (and if not forward then at least down new avenues) because it is becoming very stagnant.

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Originally Posted by Sephr

Honestly, this arguement is tired. If the player is remotely good they'll be concentrating on doing the right actions in battle, and won't have time to spam jumps. It does not happen, it never happened.

I'm surprised guild wars 2 hasn't been mentioned more, that game's got a hugely interactive battle system, it's shaping up really nicely.

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Guild Wars 2 does look quite interactive. Videos sometimes lie, but the demos I've seen so far do show a winning combination between RPG elements and action RPGs, and if it wasn't for the crappy animations, character models and graphics, GW2 would really be an amazing game.

Blade and Soul has a pretty innovative combat system too. It's like tab-targetting meets arcade combat, and it seems to flow quite well. There is a lot of jumping in it though, so I guess people on these forums might have a minor conniption if they ever played it.

All in all, I don't think some emphasis on positioning and movement would hurt FFXIV. I think it would only improve it.

I played the little demo for Guild Wars 2 at PAX last year. Honestly, it's good, but it isn't anything special, and ArenaNet is making a lot of promises that are thus far empty.

They want the game to do so much, but they also want it to be able to run on antiquated hardware. It doesn't add up.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

I played the little demo for Guild Wars 2 at PAX last year. Honestly, it's good, but it isn't anything special, and ArenaNet is making a lot of promises that are thus far empty.

They want the game to do so much, but they also want it to be able to run on antiquated hardware. It doesn't add up.

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It'll likely be how TERA handles it - TurboGrafix Mode and HD mode.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

I played the little demo for Guild Wars 2 at PAX last year. Honestly, it's good, but it isn't anything special, and ArenaNet is making a lot of promises that are thus far empty.

They want the game to do so much, but they also want it to be able to run on antiquated hardware. It doesn't add up.

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They are probably taking the programming and network code more seriously than the graphics. So they may be able to achieve what they want, it just wont be pretty.

With FFXIV, it was the other way around.

(When the game first came out, Japanese players were saying they used the old FFXI servers. I don't know if that's true or not, but my JP friends in game were saying as much.)

I don't see why everyone ignores the obvious reason we don't do this.

Because we have bad AI in MMOs.

dodging, timing, all those are what you call "reactionary" methods. And the key to it being good or bad is a pattern scenario.

The problem with patterns is that they are extremely complicated to get right, reason AI is such a hot field to be in. and MMO have pretty much the dumbest AI out there in modern gaming.

This is doublely problematic when you have extreme repetition of MMOs, where it's not ten's of hours or even hundreds. You have thousands of ten thousand hours of repetition.

Once I figure out the pattern, that's it, content is conquered. If developers dare to make the same pattern again, it's considered bad content, because I already know how it works.

This is why ducking and dodging, etc belongs in short lived games or "lobby" games like Phantasy star. (Which Phantasy star online 2 is going to approach it by doing randomized dungeons)

A game like tera remains to be proven for anything more then a simply delusion. And definitely not some FF14 has the ability to do.

You need rapid rapid content, smarter and smarter AI, and constant brain storming. It's never going to work.

Unless your whole MMO is going to end up PvP where AI is not in the equation, it's just stupid. We're too smart for dumb AIs.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

I don't see why everyone ignores the obvious reason we don't do this.

Because we have bad AI in MMOs.

dodging, timing, all those are what you call "reactionary" methods. And the key to it being good or bad is a pattern scenario.

The problem with patterns is that they are extremely complicated to get right, reason AI is such a hot field to be in. and MMO have pretty much the dumbest AI out there in modern gaming.

This is doublely problematic when you have extreme repetition of MMOs, where it's not ten's of hours or even hundreds. You have thousands of ten thousand hours of repetition.

Once I figure out the pattern, that's it, content is conquered. If developers dare to make the same pattern again, it's considered bad content, because I already know how it works.

This is why ducking and dodging, etc belongs in short lived games or "lobby" games like Phantasy star. (Which Phantasy star online 2 is going to approach it by doing randomized dungeons)

A game like tera remains to be proven for anything more then a simply delusion. And definitely not some FF14 has the ability to do.

You need rapid rapid content, smarter and smarter AI, and constant brain storming. It's never going to work.

Unless your whole MMO is going to end up PvP where AI is not in the equation, it's just stupid. We're too smart for dumb AIs.

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I agree with you, But i think action games in general have Bad A.I.

You know whats funny tho Fucking perfect dark on N64 has better A.I than 90% of these new era games that's kinda sad when a N64 game has better A.I then the modern C.O.D LOLz.

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Originally Posted by Firon

I agree with you, But i think action games in general have Bad A.I.

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Action games AIs vary, Bosses have seriously upped AI, and multi level scenarios, while cannon folder may have an AI that's as simple as "move towards target and swing) Not to mention for $60, you're probably about 12hrs of gaming and maybe repeat on average 5 times.

MMO AIs are seriously one dimensional, even bosses. It's not worth the effort to design complicated AIs in MMOs due to the shear size you have to populate.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

I don't see why everyone ignores the obvious reason we don't do this.

Because we have bad AI in MMOs.

dodging, timing, all those are what you call "reactionary" methods. And the key to it being good or bad is a pattern scenario.

The problem with patterns is that they are extremely complicated to get right, reason AI is such a hot field to be in. and MMO have pretty much the dumbest AI out there in modern gaming.

This is doublely problematic when you have extreme repetition of MMOs, where it's not ten's of hours or even hundreds. You have thousands of ten thousand hours of repetition.

Once I figure out the pattern, that's it, content is conquered. If developers dare to make the same pattern again, it's considered bad content, because I already know how it works.

This is why ducking and dodging, etc belongs in short lived games or "lobby" games like Phantasy star. (Which Phantasy star online 2 is going to approach it by doing randomized dungeons)

A game like tera remains to be proven for anything more then a simply delusion. And definitely not some FF14 has the ability to do.

You need rapid rapid content, smarter and smarter AI, and constant brain storming. It's never going to work.

Unless your whole MMO is going to end up PvP where AI is not in the equation, it's just stupid. We're too smart for dumb AIs.

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Not exactly, figuring things out is the best part. Just because one person figures out the possible perfect strategy to beat something does not mean everybody knows the perfect strategy. You have to do a linkshell huddle on the strategy and coordinate everyone so they can pull everything perfectly, and if things go bad, you improvise. Before zerging methods were invented in ffxi, and you guys were the first ones to be fighting certain bosses or bcnms, sometimes it could possibly take you 5-10 tries before you finally beat it, and that doesn't always guarantee a win the next several times you do it because someone in your party could mess up as well by not paying attention and not reacting fast enough.

I can't say the same for the other MMOs, well the rest are WoW clones, and you just have to attack, and if you are a healer, you know how to heal, you are a great player.

Phantasy Star Online/Universe/online 2 are all action RPG duongeon crawlers, not MMORPGs


so comparing those is pointless, now Tera..... that game just sucks.

Funny part is. The game already allows you to dodge special attacks would not be to far of a leap to hope the same could be done with normal attacks. The main Problem with this as others have mentioned is the latency of the server updating your position and the game actually displaying everything correctly (ie why this type of thing is normally single player fodder). That being said it would be pretty darn nifty if players could shield each other from aoe attacks. On the flip side of that coin it could add new layers of strategy and skill use if the same were true of the mobs.

It kind've sucks that we have latency issues now even though so few people are even online.....

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Originally Posted by Dyne

Not exactly, figuring things out is the best part. Just because one person figures out the possible perfect strategy to beat something does not mean everybody knows the perfect strategy. You have to do a linkshell huddle on the strategy and coordinate everyone so they can pull everything perfectly, and if things go bad, you improvise. Before zerging methods were invented in ffxi, and you guys were the first ones to be fighting certain bosses or bcnms, sometimes it could possibly take you 5-10 tries before you finally beat it, and that doesn't always guarantee a win the next several times you do it because someone in your party could mess up as well by not paying attention and not reacting fast enough.

I can't say the same for the other MMOs, well the rest are WoW clones, and you just have to attack, and if you are a healer, you know how to heal, you are a great player.

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This is an MMO, subscription based as well. 5-10 tries? You're talking about 500-1000 repetitions. And it's also not easy to make "new" patterns. If your mole monster pattern looks similar to your boss mole pattern...what makes it a boss? It hits harder? Lame.

That's why $60 action games clocks hours in single digits, not quadruple digits.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

This is an MMO, subscription based as well. 5-10 tries? You're talking about 500-1000 repetitions. And it's also not easy to make "new" patterns. If your mole monster pattern looks similar to your boss mole pattern...what makes it a boss? It hits harder? Lame.

That's why $60 action games clocks hours in single digits, not quadruple digits.

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500-1000 repetitions of zerging does not include much skill. Now, kiting, holding a few mobs, sleeping them, time nuking, time stunning, time skill chaining, etc... that is skill. When you have a black mage stun order on a mob that spams aga III every few seconds, meaning you are a black mage in line for stuns, and it's your turn to stun, but somehow you missed it when the mob started casting thundaga III and didn't stun, your entire alliance is wiped. I'm talking about that difficulty. Not stupid moles going underground pattern. Do you even play this game or played ffxi? Because, I'm pretty sure you have no idea what I'm talking about. Have you ever fought a gobbue, that can one shot your tank, and spams paralyze and silence on a wide range? If you only played WoW or a WoW clone, then I highly doubt you have any idea what difficulty is like.

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Originally Posted by Griss

Funny part is. The game already allows you to dodge special attacks would not be to far of a leap to hope the same could be done with normal attacks. The main Problem with this as others have mentioned is the latency of the server updating your position and the game actually displaying everything correctly (ie why this type of thing is normally single player fodder). That being said it would be pretty darn nifty if players could shield each other from aoe attacks. On the flip side of that coin it could add new layers of strategy and skill use if the same were true of the mobs.

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They are suppose to be working on that: Overtaxation of hardware thread"

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Originally Posted by Dyne

500-1000 repetitions of zerging does not include much skill. Now, kiting, holding a few mobs, sleeping them, time nuking, time stunning, time skill chaining, etc... that is skill. When you have a black mage stun order on a mob that spams aga III every few seconds, meaning you are a black mage in line for stuns, and it's your turn to stun, but somehow you missed it when the mob started casting thundaga III and didn't stun, your entire alliance is wiped. I'm talking about that difficulty. Not stupid moles going underground pattern. Do you even play this game or played ffxi? Because, I'm pretty sure you have no idea what I'm talking about. Have you ever fought a gobbue, that can one shot your tank, and spams paralyze and silence on a wide range? If you only played WoW or a WoW clone, then I highly doubt you have any idea what difficulty is like.

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What does the current intermediate battle system even have to do with said topic?

You're trying to denounce my creditability by talking about not understanding but you are yourself completely in the same shoes on almost every point.

How it is any different from describing a game where you leap over an enemy to land on it's head to kill it? Look you're dipping ducking diving and dodging! But the enemy is only moving back and forth.... just jump on it already and be done with it.

Kukurumei is right. We need better AI too.

can't wait for tera to come out so i can play it lol, this game would of rocked with the no target system route like tera. but anywho, yeah this battle system is lacking, hopefully it will be all fixed up in a year or two lol. till then we can go play tera and gw2(no monthly on gw2 ftw) lol

When the founders of TERA left NCSoft with "stolen" programming code, apparently they showed their code to a company rumoured to be Square-Enix before finally just starting their own company (Bluehole studios).

SquareEnix, if it was indeed them, should have taken the code while they had the chance!

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Originally Posted by giftforce

When the founders of TERA left NCSoft with "stolen" programming code, apparently they showed their code to a company rumoured to be Square-Enix before finally just starting their own company (Bluehole studios).

SquareEnix, if it was indeed them, should have taken the code while they had the chance!

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well tera stole the code from ncsoft, while they were working on lineage 3. and yes square enix also did stole code from ncsoft. dude who got caught admit he sold it to square- enix also. shame on you SE. ;)

FFXI required skill. A tank who knew how to spam skills at the perfect time could tank two mobs at once, and save the party. A tank who couldn't got the party wiped.

A healer who knew how to let player's hp get JUST low enough to keep them alive, but knew who to heal, and how to save MP was much better than a healer who just max cured anyone who got low on HP, and let out huge AOE cures becasue he or she didn't understand hate.

A bard who had an exact idea of how far his or her AOE is on songs, so they could hit the pld with a ballad, while the other DPS didn't get it.. that's skill.

A warrior who knew how to keep his hate just low enough to let the PLD keep hate, but high enough where he or she could voke of the PLD if things got messy. That is skill.

A sam who had that stun ready right when the mob was about to weaponskill, and canceled the gobs bomb throw. that was skill.

Two level 21 ninjas duo tanking in quafin without utsusemi ni, succesfully bouncing hate back and fourth.. that was skill.

a thf or rng who could pull mobs JUST in time, and get them back to camp right as the other one died. that's skill

a brd who could keep an entire party buffed, adn still have a mob waiting asleep for his or her party.

I could go on for ever.

my point: you don't need twitch based gaming to make a good combat system :)

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Originally Posted by zoekwon

well tera stole the code from ncsoft, while they were working on lineage 3. and yes square enix also did stole code from ncsoft. dude who got caught admit he sold it to square- enix also. shame on you SE. ;)

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So it's not just a rumour?

Where is our TERA-like combat?

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

What does the current intermediate battle system even have to do with said topic?

You're trying to denounce my creditability by talking about not understanding but you are yourself completely in the same shoes on almost every point.

How it is any different from describing a game where you leap over an enemy to land on it's head to kill it? Look you're dipping ducking diving and dodging! But the enemy is only moving back and forth.... just jump on it already and be done with it.

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Again, all I want are dodge buttons to dodge left or right using it with our existing battle system and targeting system. Nothing I said was about leaping over an enemy's head to kill it. You are rank 1 archer, so I question if you even play. Enemies do not just go back and forth. They can chase you all over the place depending on how they adjust the enemy range. You probably don't even know that certain enemies do moves that can kill an entire party, except maybe the tank, if the party is right next to it, or right in front or whatever. Dodging moves like these require you to either be already a certain distance away or run far away and cross your fingers. The purpose of the dodge buttons is to quickly move you out of the way or die, that is if you actually saw what the mob is about to do because you were paying attention, and you'll have a second to make that decision. If you are just standing there just spamming away recklessly, when the mob does the move, you are dead.

The game system which is in place at the moment actually accommodates positioning-based combat. We already have abilities like Arrow-helix and different kinds of AoE attacks, as well as mobs which have various AoE attacks, and that's all that is really needed for a combat system where positioning is important. So dodge could work, and I think it would be a worthwhile addition.

Even if it is just a pattern to learn, I think some variety in pattern-learning is necessary to hold our attention.

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Originally Posted by alexi14

FFXI required skill. A tank who knew how to spam skills at the perfect time could tank two mobs at once, and save the party. A tank who couldn't got the party wiped.

A healer who knew how to let player's hp get JUST low enough to keep them alive, but knew who to heal, and how to save MP was much better than a healer who just max cured anyone who got low on HP, and let out huge AOE cures becasue he or she didn't understand hate.

A bard who had an exact idea of how far his or her AOE is on songs, so they could hit the pld with a ballad, while the other DPS didn't get it.. that's skill.

A warrior who knew how to keep his hate just low enough to let the PLD keep hate, but high enough where he or she could voke of the PLD if things got messy. That is skill.

A sam who had that stun ready right when the mob was about to weaponskill, and canceled the gobs bomb throw. that was skill.

Two level 21 ninjas duo tanking in quafin without utsusemi ni, succesfully bouncing hate back and fourth.. that was skill.

a thf or rng who could pull mobs JUST in time, and get them back to camp right as the other one died. that's skill

a brd who could keep an entire party buffed, adn still have a mob waiting asleep for his or her party.

I could go on for ever.

my point: you don't need twitch based gaming to make a good combat system :)

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Yes, gameplay such as these is exactly what made ffxi great, but you need to understand that the game has to evolve somewhat. I am proposing to do all those things you just mentioned, but with the addition of dodge buttons to possibly avoid an unblockable, aoe, kill shot weaponskills by certain mobs to bring a level of excitement to the game, since none of those things you mentioned are in ffxiv at all.

Well, I can understand where your coming from, but what's the difference between hitting stun RIGHT before the mob uses a special move, and slamming the dodge left button? I'd say the difference is STUN requires you to have a certain amount ot TP ready, where dodge you can just spam..

I mean unless you are trying to make this a FPS MMO.. I don't see how any of these will effectively work all in conjunction.

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Originally Posted by alexi14

Well, I can understand where your coming from, but what's the difference between hitting stun RIGHT before the mob uses a special move, and slamming the dodge left button? I'd say the difference is STUN requires you to have a certain amount ot TP ready, where dodge you can just spam..

I mean unless you are trying to make this a FPS MMO.. I don't see how any of these will effectively work all in conjunction.

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I was talking about Stun in ffxi, using black mage spell. If you didn't stun in time, your alliance is wiped. Not everyone has a stun weaponskill or a stun spell, so adding dodge buttons, others have the option of surviving, if the assigned stunner screws up. You wouldn't be spamming dodge if you want to hit the mob since that puts you out of range of hitting it. You really have to just use it in certain special conditions, so most people won't have that finger on the trigger ready all the time, and if its kill shot weaponskills that you have to dodge, then it will force you to pay attention to the mob you are fighting because your survival can be dependent on it.

Hey Dyne,

If you want dodge and action MMORPGs, then play other MMORPGs that have dodge and are action MMOPRGs instead of trying to change a game's battle system that has already been redone. They decided on AA, so you're getting AA. If you don't like that, don't play Final Fantasy XIV. It's not going to work, the Dev Team is not going to change it again, and like I said before, if you don't like the combat system... don't play Final Fantasy XIV. Go play one of the new MMORPG coming out like you say. Why play something you don't like? Why change something that as already been changed?

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Originally Posted by Striker_Zero

Hey Dyne,

If you want dodge and action MMORPGs, then play other MMORPGs that have dodge and are action MMOPRGs instead of trying to change a game's battle system that has already been redone. They decided on AA, so you're getting AA. If you don't like that, don't play Final Fantasy XIV. It's not going to work, the Dev Team is not going to change it again, and like I said before, if you don't like the combat system... don't play Final Fantasy XIV. Go play one of the new MMORPG coming out like you say. Why play something you don't like? Why change something that as already been changed?

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I think people are allowed to have an opinion on the matter. Besides we're pretty much in beta right now, so change is going on all the time.

That said I think with the way this game's coded it's probably pretty much impossible to do most of the stuff suggested.

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Originally Posted by Dyne

Now, kiting, holding a few mobs, sleeping them, time nuking, time stunning, time skill chaining, etc... that is skill. When you have a black mage stun order on a mob that spams aga III every few seconds, meaning you are a black mage in line for stuns, and it's your turn to stun, but somehow you missed it when the mob started casting thundaga III and didn't stun, your entire alliance is wiped. I'm talking about that difficulty.

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That doesn't sound like difficulty, that sounds like tediosity. Bad mob design and no fun trying to deal with the poorly designed mob.

So when does TERA come out? That shit looks mad fun.

Ignoring everything else, we can't have an action based combat system in this game for a single reason: The servers are located in Japan.

With regional servers, that becomes more of a reality, but Square dropped that idea for some asinine reason.

The distance latency from America is bad enough with the current combat system as it is. I suppose that's the only redeeming factor auto-attack will have when it's implemented today.

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Originally Posted by DAOWAce

Ignoring everything else, we can't have an action based combat system in this game for a single reason: The servers are located in Japan.

With regional servers, that becomes more of a reality, but Square dropped that idea for some asinine reason.

The distance latency from America is bad enough with the current combat system as it is. I suppose that's the only redeeming factor auto-attack will have when it's implemented today.

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Haha, so sad but so true.

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Originally Posted by Dyne

People promoting it being rude does not automatically make the game bad. I'm not asking to turn the game into Tera. I am just asking for dodge buttons the same way people are asking for a jump button using the same battle system we have now. I also want that element of danger and desperation back. Remember times during Kirin fights when people actually reserve a spot in the big room as a hospital for people recovering and the whole fight can last 30 minutes to an hour depending how coordinated the linkshell is?

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Last time I tanked I remember seeing these skills called "Deflection, "Aegis Boon", "Outmaneuver", "Sentinel" in my bar...I could be mistaken...but I remember those being there and activating/enhancing my block ability.

There is a reason why there are different battle systems in place in different games. It has NOTHING to do with "historic restrictions". There have been "Action RPGs" in the 80s already, so think again...

Different battle system are in place in different games cause they are meant to be for different players...

If you prefer a fully action based battle system, then go and play Tera or PSO2(I loved PSO on DC and GC, so that's not the point). I like those battle systems as well, but I'm playing FFXIV and I played XI and WoW cause I like their battle systems more.