"If you die twice, you're out"

lol where are all these snide little comments coming from? What is the point being made? Is there even one?

Is this thread pretty much pointless? Seems like it is.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

lol where are all these snide little comments coming from? What is the point being made? Is there even one?

Is this thread pretty much pointless? Seems like it is.

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It probably had a point before you two turned it into a pissing contest.

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Originally Posted by Gandora

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That's a pretty cool picture of you dude, I get the feeling that you'd stop caring about people helping each other and making friends as soon as people help you.

I have heaps of friends, LS and they all know how to to do EM primals. I rarely pug so by necessity I would have to have lots of friends, I don't need any more and I help the people I know. I'm not a one-man salvation army and neither are the people who create PF groups, if you had enough friends yourself what they do with their groups would be of little consequence to you so your rage is very telling.

I'm about one week away from having every EM primal weapon, some have already got them all so the incentive to even run them is declining for a lot of players. This is why merc runs exist, give them a financial incentive :)

Also calling discrimination in a MMO is first-world problems as all heck. Go outside and get some real issues.

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Originally Posted by Bakiraka

It probably had a point before you two turned it into a pissing contest.

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I posted twice before the one you quoted. Twice. It was a pissing contest for pages before I even showed up here. Nice try.

Furthermore, my questions were in fact rhetorical. It's obvious to anybody not kidding themselves that there isn't really a point at all since there is absolutely nothing wrong with Party Finder groups being formed with custom rules seeking a specific set of players.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Go outside and get some real issues.

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Wait what? Some people find it unacceptable to die twice inside a video game fight, to the point of "making 2 fail & you're out" rules and try to justify it with some sort of biast drawing bullshit story, basicaly comparing someone else mistakes as an attempt to bully, then these same players tell you this? LOL, Hypocrit.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

That's a pretty cool picture of you dude, I get the feeling that you'd stop caring about people helping each other and making friends as soon as people help you.

I have heaps of friends, LS and they all know how to to do EM primals. I rarely pug so by necessity I would have to have lots of friends, I don't need any more and I help the people I know. I'm not a one-man salvation army and neither are the people who create PF groups, if you had enough friends yourself what they do with their groups would be of little consequence to you so your rage is very telling.

I'm about one week away from having every EM primal weapon, some have already got them all so the incentive to even run them is declining for a lot of players. This is why merc runs exist, give them a financial incentive.

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You have been trying (and failing) every attempt to make sarcasm on this thread. Maybe your good friends could be usefull and help you to improve on this side? Seems its something you gonna have to work in priority after you get your last EM weapon.

To come back to the point, as you said outside are worst things to worry about, so why make it more difficult for yourself and for the others in a mmo?

Since now 8 pages (or maybe more) no one could give a proper explanation/reason on how treating someone that way is benefiting? I believe that if you play FFXIV its because you like it, right?

Otherwise why do you waste your time in here? You're clearly so much better, so much smarter, you deserve everything right? so why don't you go out and get it? I don't understand whats holding you? Because again you guys are so perfect, definately a model of society to get inspired from! You apparently never do any mistake and know everything better than anyone! No seriously guys its true, its coming from someone totaly complexed with no friends that are able to complete an EM primal! you guys are so cool, the emblems of success! You guys are so much better then us, we "noobs" doesn't deserve 5 mins of your time or to benefit from your knowledge of everything.

Now maybe I am being retarded for thinking that we're playing a mmo & that we should be able to keep calm and chill to relax with each others, yes relax! Maybe I am being retarded for thinking we should accept each other mistakes and be friendly to each others, in order to keep this game lively and enjoyable.

But what do you bring? out of your misplaced ego, your epeen and your shiny pixels? When someone come to ask you a simple question "What is your justification for that?" absolutely no one can answer, its all about "I don't want to carry X person" "Its my time" its me, me me me! oh yes, and then in order to get some credit all you can do is gather to try and make the person on the other side look bad.

You're playing a mmo, on top its supposed to be a casual mmo, if you don't like the fact that maybe 60% - 80% of this community doesn't fulfill your expectations, it did never come to your mind that "you" must be the problem? Yes maybe the problem is "you you you." Think about it.

Sarcasmfailer, don't take it personaly i'm replying to a generality, not only you.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

That's a pretty cool picture of you dude

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Just in case you did not realise this, the baby is white and I'm brown.

You should listen to your own advice; calm down it's just a video game. If you make some friends and get some real issues what people write in PF is of no consequence to you.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Stuff.

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Originally Posted by Gandora

You have been trying (and failing) every attempt to make sarcasm on this thread.

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SarcasmMisser

I loled.

I'm beginning to wonder if most of the people in this thread complain in real life about exclusive clubs too.
Brb, complaining to Harvard.

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Originally Posted by Gandora

You're playing a mmo, on top its supposed to be a casual mmo, if you don't like the fact that maybe 60% - 80% of this community doesn't fulfill your expectations, it did never come to your mind that "you" must be the problem? Yes maybe the problem is "you you you." Think about it.

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Maybe the people who make these groups KNOW this and are trying to find other like minded people. Not everyone plays games for the same reasons or the same way. Using a tool to help find like minded people who play in similar ways, is fine. Anyone who puts up a PF group for learning or "taking it easy" is doing the same thing.

Also you talked about it not being a complaint in one or more of your earlier posts. But it is. Some people are complaining that people are making groups like this. Raising awareness? We already know people do this, and it's OK that they do it. That's why it's a complaint, is that some people(not all mind you) are upset that people do this and think they shouldn't.

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Originally Posted by ispano

That's why it's a complaint, is that some people(not all mind you) are upset that people do this and think they shouldn't.

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The fact its happen is meaningless to me, I really don't bother interacting with people like that. What is upsetting is the fact the concerned persons try to justify this behavior in front of newer players with completely rubish reasons, leaving these new players the idea that no one is going to welcome them once they reach the end game stage. "We're not willing to carry you!"

With a mentality as such the community is only going to shrink, what is beneficial in that?

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Originally Posted by Gandora

*insert a whole lot of double standards*

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First, many people have politely explained why they prefer these parties to clear content. You just don't accept the answers. Simply, (other than those who do use it as a way to insult people) people looking for other like-minded people who have similar experience and expectations.

You're basically saying that what does not benefit you (not being able to be in any party you wish), or people who think like you, doesn't benefit another entire group of people? You expect people to use their time (which you apparently have no regard for, by the way) in the same way you choose to use yours? Your entire post focused on why you think everyone should do what you think they should be doing with their time and their money, especially if it gets you what you want. You, in no way, recognized that there are multiple options for gameplay and that it is always the player's choice to play how and when they like. No one is forcing you to join these parties, just like no one is forcing those people into learning parties.

I see so much complaining about discrimination (bit of a bold word to be used in regard to something you feel is casual) against less experienced players in this thread, when the reality is that the majority of the people going into (or forming) these 'discriminatory' parties also spent the time learning the fights via joining (or forming) learning parties. They put in their time and effort, helping and learning, but are expected to gain no reward (such as ease of doing weekly clears from then on) for doing so because, in your estimation, it doesn't benefit the community (you)? The logic in that is so utterly flawed that it's shocking. Mind you, forming a group gives no one the right to be insulting due to mistakes, but to feel you have the right to tell another person what guidelines to use in forming their own groups in a game they spend their free time playing and their money paying for, following the game's policies, is arrogant beyond reason. Perhaps more arrogant than you accuse them of being.

I will continue to form learning parties for content I am not clearing with my static. Anyone can feel free to join them, with the guidelines being that patience and civility is required. I will also continue to form "2 fail = removal" parties when I am confident in my ability to clear said content, and anyone is welcome to join those, as well, with the guidelines that they will be politely replaced if their mistakes (or connection issues) are holding back the group as a whole. No one is forcing them to join either group, but they just might find that, in either case, the groups go much more smoothly because they are full of people who have the same expectations.

Why does this even need to be explained? It's common sense, and not something that merits complaint (and yes, it is complaint) on the forums. Really, it just comes off as being upset that a group may not have the same expectations you have, and as people who would rather complain about a thing than just form their own groups with guidelines they feel are appropriate.

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Originally Posted by Gandora

The fact its happen is meaningless to me, I really don't bother interacting with people like that. What is upsetting is the fact the concerned persons try to justify this behavior in front of newer players with completely rubish reasons, leaving these new players the idea that no one is going to welcome them once they reach the end game stage. "We're not willing to carry you!"

With a mentality as such the community is only going to shrink, what is beneficial in that?

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And yet some of the reasons are not rubbish. You call them that so you can discount their views.

Every time I have joined a group with this type of policy the leader of the group died more than anyone else. If they legit just want a run that will go smooth then I cannot blame them, that is what most people want. However, people that use it to get carried are funny.

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Originally Posted by Gandora

The fact its happen is meaningless to me, I really don't bother interacting with people like that. What is upsetting is the fact the concerned persons try to justify this behavior in front of newer players with completely rubish reasons, leaving these new players the idea that no one is going to welcome them once they reach the end game stage. "We're not willing to carry you!"

With a mentality as such the community is only going to shrink, what is beneficial in that?

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The act itself requires no justification. It is entirely self-explanatory and transparent.

If I put up a PF request for Garuda EX saying clearly that it is for experienced players in order to farm efficiently, I am clearly not looking for people who haven't cleared or have trouble performing. As a way to measure this, a limit is placed on how many times each party member can screw up in the forms of deaths - the usual result of getting hit by mechanics that you shouldn't get caught by.

Problems occur when inexperienced players join parties such as this that clearly ask for qualified individuals, and then proceed to screw up and cause wipes. They die 2-3 times and get replaced, as they fully expected to when they joined. Likewise, some inexperienced people have taken to starting such restricted farm parties in an attempt to have themselves carried - something that becomes clear when the party leader dies more than the others.

Everybody was a new player at some point. It's not about not welcoming new players onto the endgame stage. There are many ways to learn content and become adequately proficient at it. The point is, joining a farming party isn't the way.

Oh, come on, why are we having this discussion again.

If someone else's requirements on party finder do not please you, don't join. If all parties have requirements that you don't like, create your own.

It's *that* simple. The party creation process is so amazingly streamlined in this game there's absolutely no reason not to create a party tailored for your specific needs if you cannot find one.

Also, experienced players are in no obligation whatsoever to party with people that are constantly failing. These players have already spent a lot of time. They have a 95%+ success ratio on performing their job perfectry. They only die when someone else screws up hard, or when they get legit lag. Why should they have to go over "learning" wipes all over again?

"Oh, but my community! You are so mean! X years ago everyone was so nice and we wiped for hours and hours and no one complained and blah blah blah"

A "good community" does not mean "everyone is willing play with lower skilled players at all times". Also, I'd like you to show me this supposed 'paradise MMO' where the majority of the players are / were willing to spend hours upon hours aiding random strangers weekly. I really don't recall that game. And no, FFXI is not that game.


I'll use me as an example: To get my first Titan EX win, I did the fight 5 hours+ over 3 days in a row. 15 hours of constant fighting with no wins. After that, I've done the fight a billion extra times to get weekly wins, for FC learning runs, LS learning runs, weekly wins that took 4+ hours due to bad parties, Duty Finder to learn tanking. I can safely say I have spent 30, 40+ hours on that fight ALONE. I've wasted a crapload of time on that fight already. I am more than capable of one shotting it with little effort. There are a lot of players out there equally or even more skilled than me. They are looking for parties as well.

Give me one good reason why I should stay on a party with (or allow into my party) someone that is still consistently dying almost every run. There's none other than being the mythical good guy, Saviour of the Community and Willing to Wait Until You Figure Out That The Brighty Brownish Stuff On The Ground Is Bad And You Should Move Away From It™. Sorry, I am *not* going to waste an unknown number of hours just to be a good samaritan. I already spent more than enough time doing it. I respect you, and I honestly wish you good luck, but you're gonna have to do this just like I did, man up and join other people who are also learning this fight, instead of a group clearly meant for experienced players. I'm just not at that point anymore and have no reason to lose (yes, LOSE) my time dying due to no fault of my own, and possible not of several other party members that are just as good as me.



By the way, the "X deaths" rule is so "popular" because it's pretty decent way of gauging players' skill level and knowledge of the fight. Mistakes happen, lag happen, but if you die several times, specially on a "trivial" part of the content (pre earthen fury Titan, Ifrit phase Ultima, wetc), you clearly are not experienced on that fight and should not be on an experienced group.

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Originally Posted by Saziel

"If you die twice, you're out"

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Yah same rules as dragonball Z

party leaders recruiting through PF usually tend to be exempt from their own rules and their wants take precedence.

I stopped doing content outside of FC and friends, because out in the wilderness people are assholes. Lately though I only join PF to help people working on relics as a good deed for the day thing.

Your post title is clear if statement, usually they use this kind of rules in ifrit and titan EX to save time.

if u think u have the optimal ilvl and u can maintain this rule"stay alive". Join to party,very simple Xd

It is all about reading between the lines.

What they are really saying is that they hate the game and don't want to play it, they only want items so they can quit or brag.

People who enjoy the game do not put such messages in their party comments. Because these value the challenge in beating game content with strangers, even if it takes deaths. The more deaths the harder it is, the harder it is the greater the accomplishment. Who cares if someone beats Twintania with 0 deaths? It is those who beat it with 50 deaths that are the good players who took on the challenge and prevailed.

I won't join your groups and demand perfection if you don't join mine and demand I lower my standards.

Seems fair to me :)

I feel like the fail=kick rule is eltist, but at the same time I hate wiping from simple mechanics. So until I'm at farm-level of doing content I generally don't jump into those kind of pugs and join training groups or practice with the FC. There is a party out there for everyone. And if there isn't make your own.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

It is all about reading between the lines.

What they are really saying is that they hate the game and don't want to play it, they only want items so they can quit or brag.

People who enjoy the game do not put such messages in their party comments. Because these value the challenge in beating game content with strangers, even if it takes deaths. The more deaths the harder it is, the harder it is the greater the accomplishment. Who cares if someone beats Twintania with 0 deaths? It is those who beat it with 50 deaths that are the good players who took on the challenge and prevailed.

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This is not about "enjoying the game" or not. Stop trying to put that kind of negative label, it's stupid. I'd even go as far as saying that it's precisely because these people enjoy the game that they have put a lot of time into, you know, getting good at the game. We wouldn't have bothered doing X fight a bazillion times if we didn't enjoy the game.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to play with good players, and merely "saving time" is not the only reason to do so. I absolutely love doing "perfect" Titan EX fights. It's very fun to watch the group moving together, and it's satisfying to get him down. It's not fun to avoid everything but still repeatedly lose because of someone else. And, unless we're talking about Dwarf Fortress, losing is NEVER fun, outside of very specific sittuations with a very good party sinergy that basically never happens when playing with strangers.

Also, the "challenge of beating content with strangers" argument is pretty weak, as well. There is some challenge in getting used to each other and getting a win. I actually agree with that. But "getting used to each other" actually mostly means "deciding on a strategy when a group has players used to different strategies". The best example of this is Ifrit EX (well, if we ignore the "all ranged faceroll" strategy): Some groups do the "always clockwise" strategy, some groups do "howled healer always <place>", other groups do "healers never move", and even other strategies. Getting a party with people used to these different strategies and making they work together can be an interesting challenge and take a few tries before the group wins. That can be actually fun. I've had my fair share of laughs by seeing people being knocked by Searing Wind because he thought we were doing X but we were doing Y.

But, if one guy keeps dying to Eruption every run and causes wipes, then this is not exactly "beating content with strangers". This is "beating content with an anchor holding the team down". And I'm sorry to say, but this is far from fun.

Anyways, I honestly believe that no side in this argument is playing the game "wrong" or "right". Are you having fun? Then you're doing it right. People who want to do things perfectly are well within their rights to do so, and I'm sure they're having fun their way. People who don't mind if not every run is a win are well within their rights to think so, too. I hope you are having fun, as well. With that said, as soon as you join someone else's party, you better agree with whatever terms are written in their PF description. Don't like it, don't join. Going to the forums trying to paint them out as some kind of villain ruining the community, accuse them of "not liking the game", or giving them any other kind of negative label just because you don't agree with how they want to play the game is childish.

If you join my "experienced" party and keep dying over and over, you're politely getting the chance of joining another group to learn the fight. If you join my "learning" party and complain about people dying, you're politely getting the chance of joining a farming group and leaving us alone to learn the fight. I honestly wish everyone else had this mentality, would save us a lot of headaches.

Im a item level 76 PLD and I don't see a problem with that mentality its up 2 the people if they think they can handle it. I know quite a bit of content where I know ill die I just wont join that simple if I know I can handel it I join those groups. I just wished that they did have a feature in game that filtered it where even if the "Leader" died twice it would kick him and allow people who are qued for died x amount of time to join..

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

It is all about reading between the lines.

What they are really saying is that they hate the game and don't want to play it, they only want items so they can quit or brag.

People who enjoy the game do not put such messages in their party comments. Because these value the challenge in beating game content with strangers, even if it takes deaths. The more deaths the harder it is, the harder it is the greater the accomplishment. Who cares if someone beats Twintania with 0 deaths? It is those who beat it with 50 deaths that are the good players who took on the challenge and prevailed.

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The thing people like you don't seem to understand is that experienced people have already spent countless hours learning the fight and don't want to backtrack with inexperienced people.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

The thing people like you don't seem to understand is that experienced people have already spent countless hours learning the fight and don't want to backtrack with inexperienced people.

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Pretty much this... but as a counter to that notion some people have the idea that we're elitists or cancerous to the community.

I'm happy to help inexperienced people through fights. I do it all the time for people in my FC or any shells I'm in. I may chose to join learning parties that are interested to help them.

The basic idea here is I'm not going to do it all the damn time. Sometimes I'm willing to help out. Sometimes I want to efficiently farm content I've mastered so I can hope to one day see a Nightmare whistle drop.

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Originally Posted by Saziel

This amuses me in Party Finder. I'd love it if the person starting the party died twice, and followed their own rules and left the party.

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I've seen it happen 2x

Everyone keeps saying they dont want to waste time, but really what else is there to do in this game?
Once you cap, get your weekly loot, run your weekly dungeon. What else do you have to do? NOTHING and then complain about there being nothing to do.

Totally down for this. Too many people say they are skilled just to get into farm groups and then the pull the whole group down. Sometimes I find I'm lagging some nights and I'm bail to let the group find someone else. The fact is I help people learn these fights all the time. Most of the runs I do a week are to help others. There comes a time where even those of us who can do the fight deserve a chance to work on our own goals. We deserve a chance at our prize too.

There is a word in Catalan that seems made specifically for such a rule. Won't repeat it here. :P

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Originally Posted by Faedden

Everyone keeps saying they dont want to waste time, but really what else is there to do in this game?
Once you cap, get your weekly loot, run your weekly dungeon. What else do you have to do? NOTHING and then complain about there being nothing to do.

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I beg to differ, there are many things to do imho. They may not interest you, but saying there is nothing is plain false.

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Originally Posted by Goodberry

I beg to differ, there are many things to do imho. They may not interest you, but saying there is nothing is plain false.

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Bro, go re-read. Let it process.

Fan boys are so quick to attack lol.

TBH it's hard to get anything done with pugs if u don't remove the baddies.

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Originally Posted by Faedden

Everyone keeps saying they dont want to waste time, but really what else is there to do in this game?
Once you cap, get your weekly loot, run your weekly dungeon. What else do you have to do? NOTHING and then complain about there being nothing to do.

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Not everyone spends all of their free time in game. Some people have other things to do IRL. Some people go play another game. Some people spend time with family. Some work long hours. Some go read a book, or go outside, or do anything but spend their free time wiping over and over to something they've already mastered in a video game. These forums are brimming with assumptions about how other people think and how they spend their time. What business is it of yours what people (legally and ethically) do with their time?

Just for giggles, and because I have yet to get an actual group together to clear it all, in Cerberus I make PF for T1-4 for people who are new only. Experts not wanted. I've cleared 1-4 several times myself as tank and couple times as healer, but need to make a group. So, experts not wanted; only beginners. I've kicked a couple of people who showed up asking if we have cleared it before because they have. Yes, I let one or two stay who promised they would help everyone learn, but it is really funny when people join and honestly are concerned they are going to get kicked because they are new to it. Then doubt me when I tell them "no, let's teach you then". And then I actually help them learn.

Who would have thought? :)

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

The thing people like you don't seem to understand is that experienced people have already spent countless hours learning the fight and don't want to backtrack with inexperienced people.

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Originally Posted by Teeko

I won't join your groups and demand perfection if you don't join mine and demand I lower my standards.

Seems fair to me :)

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https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/4045015552/h0214095C/

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Originally Posted by Gandora

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/4045015552/h0214095C/

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Elitism is to say that you are, no matter what, better than ther other.
What they are saying is that they want to play with people that have trained, they don't think they are better than the inexperienced people, stop twisting words, thanks.

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Originally Posted by lololink

stop twisting words, thanks.

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Its what is being done since the begining, you wnt it to stop? why did you do it from the begining?

I will clarify my opinion by stating that I've barely touched a toe into end-game yet in FFXIV (mostly because I have so many other things I want to do!)

However, I have -NO ISSUE- with people making groups with experience requirements or "2 deaths and you're out". It's annoying when -you've- spent hours learning a boss or a particular dungeon/raid, and all you want is a smooth run....but others treat you like "elitist" for not wanting to drag along the newbies. There's a time and a place for learning runs.

As someone who has yet done the harder raid content in FFXIV, I've been watching videos and keeping my eyes open for when a learning group is advertised. The "XP" groups don't get under my skin.

Even if I'm inexperienced, I'll self remove after dying repeatedly. It's embarrassing. I'll chock it up to a learning experience. I guess no one else complaining has any kind of shame when they fail repeatedly?

stop playing the game with people who are trying too hard



been playin mmos for years, just finished up my challenge modes in world of warcraft. i had to pug my last 3 since when i quit in october my guild was pissed that i quit, their raid group dissolved and everyone went their separate ways. id watch openraid's chat like 16hrs a day, id whisper every player advertising they needed dps for their CM only to be told that they didnt want any melee dps in their groups at all.

i saw a carry group willing to carry any idiot who could press bloodlust for free, i saw some real nerds asking people how many fking gem slots they had, and so many people, without even knowing my ability as a player, just judging me by the role i played, telling me that i was not good enough to be in their CM group.

i got pissed off and threw my chair yo, the leg broke off so i bought a new one. i wanted to buy a new one anyway. then i decided to tank. a role i was very unfamiliar with in a demanding environment. but i got used to playing it, got my last 2 golds.

The last group i played with to get them had a melee dps in it and there was plenty of time left over when we finished. when i joined any of these groups to do any of these CMs, no one asked for gem slots, no one asked me to be 9/9 already, no one said that they specifically needed X class.

and you know what? shit was easy. it was a lot easier than i was led to believe.

don't play the game with people who are trying too hard. because, really, the fact of the matter is that they are not as good as they think they are and their run is not going as smooth as they're trying to convince you it is.

I will intentionally ignore any PF groups with "exp only, N-wipes and kick" and such crap - even when I'm experienced in a fight(and I have a theory that a lot of others do as well - purely from experiments of have a group with that and one without and see which one fills up faster). Especially when I see people that actually have no experience in a fight advertise with that. Be truthful about it - if people want to help others they will help.