FYI, this was not a good enough reason to abate the player base when they pretty much demanded male Miquotes. SE has listened to players concerning Lore in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yshnal
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02-16-2014, 02:11 AMTrypich
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02-16-2014, 02:16 AMKaoru_NagisaThis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naunet
It will only be a huge problem if either SE or it's own players make it a problem. Which judging by this thread, plenty of players would make a stink about it because they're homophobic and don't want homosexual couples to have what they have because they personally think they shouldn't, even when it will never affect them whatsoever in the game.
Seriously, no stink will be made about the marriage system being inclusive to the LGBT community unless people want to make a stink about it or SE decides to for whatever reason. Which at this point, SE's safest bet would be to just not mention the marriage system including same-sex marriage (if they release one). If it's not mentioned, no one will even know unless they try it themselves, right? And the only people who would try it themselves would be the people WHO ACTUALLY WANT IT. It wouldn't affect or even enter into the gaze of anyone else in the community besides those who actually wanted the marriage system, whether they're straight or gay.
Trion didn't get any flak for implementing a marriage system that was inclusive to same-sex couples, and iirc Lucent Heart also had a same-sex marriage system and they got no flak for it either, because IT WAS NEVER MENTIONED. Which is how it should be. All SE has to do is just make the marriage system inclusive to same-sex couples, then make an simple announcement that there is a marriage system in game. That's it, no "it's only for hetero couples" or "it allows same-sex marriage!", just "we now have a marriage system in place". No harm done to either side, no side will get their feathers ruffled, no one will make "defamatory articles" questioning SE's decision. It's inclusive for all types of couples and it's also a quiet announcement. Win-win. -
02-16-2014, 02:27 AMNaunet
It's worthwhile reminding people that this doesn't just affect LGBT players. Many heterosexual couples in real life play characters in-game who are the same gender.
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02-16-2014, 02:30 AMCalyanareI'm not entirely sure you can compare these situations. Rift went F2P ages ago, and I've never even heard of Lucent Heart. Right now, FFXIV is one of the most popular new P2P games. For the "include it but just don't talk about it" strategy to work, you have to be out of the media spotlight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa
Again, I've never heard of Lucent Heart so I don't know anything about it, but I played Rift for about a year following its launch (and quit before it went F2P), and this thread was the first I heard of marriage in that game so I assume it's a relatively recent addition. The articles about marriage in Rift I assume went something like "Hey, remember that Rift game we all played for a while 2 or 3 years ago and is now F2P? They added marriage!" FFXIV is still a new game being actively reported on by the media, though, which is why adding marriage would attract lots of attention no matter how the company chose to announce it, particularly because the controversy about it here in the forums is so well known.
So my opinion is that if we want this to happen, we should let it die. Quit talking about it and stirring up controversy so that they can quietly add it, because that's the only way it will be able to be inclusive. -
02-16-2014, 02:34 AMTupsiThe difference is:Quote:
Originally Posted by Trypich
1 is a playable counterpart to a race, people only demanded it for personal reasons (omg I want a pretty cat boy!) So Yshnal is correct, if lore says otherwise, that's how the design is. Look at what they sacrificed to give us male cats and female roes, they didn't simply decide to get rid of belt models and scale character models down to almost PSX style builds.
Was never a problem in FFXI, but then again, XI comes from an era where people didn't complain about their decisions (I'm a female playing a male and my husband is also a male type of decision.) So in reality, it really isn't and wouldn't be a problem it just would happen to disallow people who made the conscious decision to play the opposite gender - Not SE's fault in any shape or form unless you can give full detailed reasoning as to how SE influenced their decision of: "I think I'll play a male character!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Naunet
Fyi they also stated Fantasia's will be available for purchase, so you can easily change your race if you want to get married, if not..there's nothing SE can do about it unless one wants to admit it's just to appease the LGBT playerbase.
Alright, let's break down the facts:Quote:
and iirc Lucent Heart also had a same-sex marriage system and they got no flak for it either
1. Lucent heart was an OBSCURE Korean MMORPG that barely had any support.
2. When the service was shutdown officially ALMOST NO HOSTING COMPANY WANTED TO HOST IT
3. It took QUITE AWHILE for them to even find a new host.
4. Did I mention it was an obscure Korean MMORPG almost no one's heard of or even cared about, hence the service shutdown?
5. 9/10 it was 2 dudes playing as female characters getting married for the buffs.
They didn't get flak for it just like Fabulous Burgers didn't get flak for their poor quality Hash Brown...
What's Fabulous Burgers you say? Exactly. I enjoyed LH, but it was such an obscure MMO that if it got flak then America and Europe is definitely being over sensitive while not uncommon (lolFoxNews), that MMO barely made any ripple in terms of an MMO itself (it was pretty bland) or because of the couple focused nature (which was cute but it was clearly targeting an extreme niche.) -
02-16-2014, 02:48 AMKaoru_NagisaOnce again, them being in the spotlight or no doesn't mean they couldn't make a quiet "hey we have a marriage system now, yay" announcement. Being in the spotlight doesn't mean anything, they DO NOT have to go into super big details about how inclusive or exclusive it is. At most, they'd just tell HOW one gets married, without specifically mentioning gender pronouns into it. Stuff like "Well, two players who want to get married will go to [insert area here], exchange [insert key item here], and will now be married (and/or if they decide to implement some kind of bonus from marriage, they will now receive [insert bonus here] whenever they party together)."Quote:
Originally Posted by Calyanare
It's very simple. They're still saying plenty about how the marriage system would work and how one would go about doing so, without actually mentioning specific gender pronouns like "two males, a male and female, two females". It's just "two players." Gender-neutral, allows easy explanation of the marriage system without potentially causing some kind of pathetic uproar by homophobes who think a same-sex inclusive marriage system will ever affect them in the first place.
This is not as big of an issue as everyone is trying to make of it. SE, even if they're in the spotlight right now, have plenty of options when it comes to explaining a marriage system without mentioning that it includes same-sex marriage options, or even mentioning what genders can even get married at all. SE has options to implement one without mentioning specifics about what genders are able to get married. It's players who are so against a marriage system they likely won't even use themselves that are the problem, not SE being in the spotlight of online gaming right now. -
02-16-2014, 02:48 AMTrypichThat's a poor counter argument and you explained why yourself: "people only demanded it for personal reasons." It was not in SE's original intention for the game, so far as we are able to tell. The change was still made. This is a game not unfamiliar with Lore revisions. Where were Soul Crystals a couple years, for example? They weren't put in until players said they wanted the more traditional roster of jobs present. Bam. It was done.Quote:
1 is a playable counterpart to a race, people only demanded it for personal reasons (omg I want a pretty cat boy!) So Yshnal is correct, if lore says otherwise, that's how the design is. Look at what they sacrificed to give us male cats and female roes, they didn't simply decide to get rid of belt models and scale character models down to almost PSX style builds.
Anyway, the entirety of your argument—and Yshnal's argument—is based around the existing world of Hydalaen as we know it which is made by real people. If those real people decide to include heterosexual marriage but exclude same-sex marriage it begs the question: why not one without the other? This game is not created in a vacuum. It already draws from real life. Hydalaen has a lot of things that the real world has: transportation, money, government, war. So you're telling me it's going to include heterosexual marriage but not same-sex marriage because, lol, those Eorzeans are just built differently? Or something? Makes no sense. -
02-16-2014, 02:52 AMNaunetActually, Rift's marriage system was added well before it went F2P (and it hasn't actually been F2P for that long, fyi), so this entire paragraph of yours is inaccurate, and the conclusions you draw from it are invalid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calyanare
They've voiced their hesitance. That alone is reason enough to not let it die, because if we do, they may implement it with restrictions.Quote:
So my opinion is that if we want this to happen, we should let it die.
Ah, the "kids these days" argument. That doesn't actually work as a legitimate stance, you know. What is wrong now was wrong then. I'm sorry you folk didn't have it in you to speak up for something you wanted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
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02-16-2014, 02:53 AMTupsiThey stated it themselves during Beta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trypich
Look at the Valentine's event, especially considering this is a Japanese developed game - It's heavily traditional which is Woman/Man or Man/Woman (Valentines/White Day), so as you said, made by real people which happen to be Japanese developers and tend to pull from their own regional influences and culture. The thing is, the only counter arguments tend to be: That's wrong to exclude! Yet they can never explain why, even in all of Valentine's tradition in the west, is it wrong for it to be Heterosexual only, since that's all I'm getting from people arguing against the 'traditional style.'Quote:
If those real people decide to include heterosexual marriage but exclude same-sex marriage it begs the question: why not one without the other?
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02-16-2014, 03:22 AMCalyanareJust because I'm not sure when a game I quit playing more than 2 years ago went F2P doesn't make it invalid. At the time I left, Rift was hemorrhaging subscribers left and right, and had just had a big server merge that was widely publicized as being its death. After that none of the gaming sites I read even mentioned Rift at all until the marriage world record attempt thing happened, so my conclusion isn't invalidated by the fact that Rift wasn't F2P yet by the time it happened. It was considered to be a dying game by most, so it could only benefit from any publicity other than a "we're shutting down the servers" message. I'm sorry I didn't feel it was necessary to do research for this post, but the facts being a little off doesn't invalidate the point I was trying to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naunet
But don't you see that because of all of the well-known controversy about it since it was originally mentioned, that "But is it inclusive?" will be the first question anybody asks? It's not like people will just go "Oh, cool!" and be pleasantly surprised if they happen to try it and it works. Even if SE doesn't announce it themselves, the first people to find out it does work (within about 5 minutes after it's live) will slather the information all over the place ASAP, causing people who don't like it to try to arrange boycotts and possibly blocking their launch in some countries (if it is gender-blind).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa
This is why I think we won't get this feature for a couple of years yet, unless people shut up about it. It's too controversial for them to take a gamble on. -
02-16-2014, 03:35 AMTrypichSo 1.0 never happened?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
That's an absolutely fair argument for Japan, but this is a global game, not a Japanese game. Of the 10 country flags that SE places on Final Fantasy XIV's home page, only three countries have yet to legalize same-sex marriage: Australia, Finland, and Japan. So if XIV were to go ahead and create in-game marriage without a same-sex component, their act would run counter to the society many of their current gamers live in.Quote:
Look at the Valentine's event, especially considering this is a Japanese developed game - It's heavily traditional which is Woman/Man or Man/Woman (Valentines/White Day), so as you said, made by real people which happen to be Japanese developers and tend to pull from their own regional influences and culture.
That and you just cannot develop a global game behind a closed wall, paying no attention to the other cultures you sell your product to. You realize that XIV is "localized" and not "translated", yes? That means that their are teams of people re-interpreting scenarios written by Japanese people so that they are more relatable to Germans, French, and English speakers. So your argument that they only pull from their "own region influences" is flawed because they are aware of this and make an effort to correct for it.
The history of LGBT persecution, discrimination, and exclusion is vast and lengthy, stretching back well before this millennium. All of these exclusionary acts against LGBT people go unmerited because they are based on fear and hatred. That is the answer to your question. There is no reason why LGBT people should be excluded.Quote:
That's wrong to exclude! Yet they can never explain why, even in all of Valentine's tradition in the west,
I only meant to respond to the initial comment about SE's commitment to their Lore (which is quite good, if I may say so.) I am happy to discuss LGBT inclusiveness, but I didn't sign on to this discussion with you to do so. I have stated my case. -
02-16-2014, 03:38 AMAlarayI've never seen MMO players who were upset that the game catered to other people, you know not only them, actually band together and boycott the game over a fluff piece. Or any game. Of course, I've heard of organizations officially recognized as hate groups who are full of extremely bigoted people do this (One Million Moms, a sub-organization to the American Family Association, attempting to boycott JC Penny over Ellen Degeneres being in their ads, for example). Yet, those were ineffective. If this was true of MMO players, then every major patch for anything would herald a random exodus of the five or ten players who get their underwear in a bunch over the simplest things and complained endlessly about it on the forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calyanare
If people at large would be as frothing at the mouth as this, then RIFT would have actually had a lot of negative press surrounding it's marriage system if it does, in fact, allow same-sex couples in it (because... people still play it actively, and it had a larger population at the time that system was introduced... and if a marriage world record from that game gets reported on, surely anyone who held extreme positions about how gay/bi people don't deserve game fluff marriage would have commented, posted their own articles on it, and go on idiotic rants about how they're offended other people get to partake in a fantasy system).
And yeah, people should shut up about it. Namely the people who get upset other people want to enjoy a game system from a game they pay monthly for, just like anybody else. Surely if they shut up and realized that their argument is, more often than not, thinly veiled bigotry (I don't like your kind/think your kind is wrong/don't care about the issues of your kind I am more important and deserve more privileges), there wouldn't be any controversy in the first place.
If Enix decides they don't want to cater to gay/bi people as well as straight people, then I agree that they should simply forgo the entire system together. Much better than implementing it and saying "only for straight couples" granted, straight people don't need more things exclusive to them: it just boosts their entitlement and spoils them more. -
02-16-2014, 03:44 AMKaoru_NagisaI actually haven't heard a single thing about this forum's apparent problem with LGBT-related issues, so I highly doubt the rest of the world outside of these toxic forums even knows how much of a fit people throw here about it. So no, I doubt the first question asked would be "are same-sex marriages available too?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Calyanare
Any actual noteworthy gaming site or interviewer worth their salt will be interested in how the system WORKS, how marriage is actually done (where to go, what you need, if there are bonuses to being married, etc), not "but can da gaes murry 2?" I literally have never seen a single thing mentioned on reputable gaming sites or discussion boards about the "LGBT problem" in FFXIV's forums, because no one actually cares outside of these forums about the issue. Either they just don't care if it's an issue at all, they don't care if SE implements more LGBT-friendly stuff, or they don't even know about the "issues" in the official forums at all.
So no, my point still stands. SE can easily explain and hype the marriage system to gaming sites without actually mentioning it's inclusive to same-sex couples. -
02-16-2014, 03:46 AMCalyanareFour. It's still illegal in most of the US as well. Sure, you can go to a state where it's legal and get married, but as of yet, the "full faith and credit" thing hasn't really been tested with regard to same sex marriage. There are one or two states that explicitly say in their law that they will recognize same sex marriages contracted in other states, but most states are silent on this fact, and a good number of states have constitutional amendments specifically prohibiting same sex marriage (Nope, still not doing research for a forum post. The exact information is out there).Quote:
Originally Posted by Trypich
BUT it isn't persecution to not be allowed to be married inside a video game. Not by a longshot. On the other side, it's also not persecution if there are no restrictions on marriage inside a video game, either. Personally, it doesn't matter to me how they implement marriage, whether or not they call it "marriage", or even IF they implement it at all. It's a video game, and I'll continue playing it as long as it's fun for me to do so. If something about the marriage implementation (when they actually implement it, which I don't think will happen for quite a long time now, due to the controversy) makes the game not fun for you anymore, nobody will blame you for unsubbing. That goes for both sides. -
02-16-2014, 04:01 AMReplicaX
With all these threads that get created and locked because ppl can't follow rules, don't even bother with marriage. The community will never be satisfied as a whole.
On the other hand, this world was created by the Developer. I feel they have the creative right to move in the direction they want and shouldn't be labeled a bigot as its a fictional world.
All the talk of Entitlement, Equality, and pushing political views of the real world into a fantasy world rather defeats the point of fiction and the creative freedom with it.
This topic has been hammered to death and I'm walking away for it for good. -
02-16-2014, 04:44 AMYshnal
I know I said that I wouldn't post anymore because I had already stated my opinion and I had nothing else to add, but I want to add a couple of lines to the discussion that -hopefuly- might give some people another point of view over the issue. Something about another hot topic in RL that is not reflected in the game/forums the same way as this one:
Guy 1: I'm an atheist and FFXIV:ARR discriminates me because it forces me to choose a god during character creation! What if I want my character to be an atheist? The Church has persecuted that kind of people for centuries, burning, torturing, and killing them! SE, you're bad! Give me the choice to be able to have no god! I hate to look at my character's sheet and see that god there!
Guy 2: I'm [insert religion] and SE forces my character to believe in those Twelve gods. I feel discriminated because I'm a monotheist and the game's parthenon offends me and my beliefs! SE, implement a one true god in FFXIV:ARR for those of us like myself! It costs you nothing to give us choices!
Do you notice something wrong there? Yes, no one has complained over that, because the game's world is not ours and it comes as it comes.
Moral of the story: You are not your character (note that I said character, not avatar), so it doesn't really matter what specific customization options the game's world gives you directly (for example, the atheist guy can simply ignore his god choice and RP that his character doesn't believe in the Twelve). Prosecuting the devs (because it's not feedback, it has an "I want this or you'll be discriminating me, period" feel over it) over this will give you/us nothing, besides making SE think twice about implementing anything :/
And now I think that I'm really done :P -
02-16-2014, 04:55 AMTupsi1.0 happened, except they stated the model changes from 1.0 to ARR was for easier development and more 'universal' design so they can easily include the Male Miqote and Female Roegadyns, less resources = easier to implement more races/genders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trypich
XIV is developed by Square Enix of Japan, unless it was outsourced. Last I checked, Square Enix is a Japanese company with western branches - it's a Japanese game. Just like WoW is a western game, unless of course, WoW was developed in China and simply localized to North America and Europe.Quote:
That's an absolutely fair argument for Japan, but this is a global game, not a Japanese game.
The solution to this is what they did with China - Split the servers off if it's that big of a deal, because to do business in china they have quite a lot of criteria to be met and restrictions added which aren't usually found in Korean/Japanese and western MMOs. Otherwise, when you log into a Japanese MMORPG, you expect to play a game influenced by Japanese culture in some fashion. They're not 'behind a closed wall', the developers develop simply how they've always had, which is true for any developer as of today.Quote:
That and you just cannot develop a global game behind a closed wall, paying no attention to the other cultures you sell your product to.
What localization does is switch cultural references mainly.
They're not being excluded, especially not on purpose, it's just designed in the traditional manner which is perfectly fine and no one cared about even a few years ago in terms of MMORPGs. It wasn't until this whole 'equality' push did video games start having to adhere to real world politics. I mean, nowadays you can't have nice things without people screaming "inequality!" or 'Unfair treatment!' so of course they probably want to just avoid the whole situation and not include it. I'm all for 'equality' but pushing it in video games..starts to take the enjoyment out of it because then developers have to be extremely cautious on what they do and who they support when they could just do whatever even a couple years ago with no issue.Quote:
There is no reason why LGBT people should be excluded
The rating may say "online interaction not rated by ESRB" but the game content is fairly low (T), but you know there will be a huge problem if they do allow same-sex marriages on either end of the globe because ARR is currently the hot topic of MMORPGs and out west, 'equality' is the hot topic politically..so you can see how there would be some kind of storm brewed. -
02-16-2014, 04:57 AMScarletyoshi
Reasons why we should have marriage at all:
-Although it does not involve killing things, it is still a feature that many people enjoy. This does not make it less important than killing things as the the benefit of any in game feature is entirely subjective.
-It's a relatively simple thing to implement that with a lot of RP potentials.
Reasons why we shouldn't have marriage at all.
-Some people don't want it so no one should have it.
-SE should focus exclusively on things that interest me personally.
Reasons why we should have marriage for all:
-It's the right thing to do (not opinion, fact).
-No one is worth less because of their race, religion, gender, or sexual orientation and should not be treated as such. (not opinion, fact.)
Reasons why we should not have marriage for all:
-Some people would be displeased if other people they don't approve of are married in a video game. These are opinions that should be taken into consideration for some reason. -
02-16-2014, 05:21 AMSeig345
I'm all for having marriage "for all" in a video game, and this is coming from a contentedly single gamer. But if there's even a risk that the game would become unavailable in certain countries over it, I don't see the point. Marriage in real life actually has meaning behind it (well, in many cases, I guess sadly not to everyone). Marriage in a video game is little more than a sticker that says 'I'm married'.
Is 'for all' the right thing to do? Yeah.
Is it worth risking the access of those who live in certain countries that might ban the game over it? Personally, no.
I understand that the bottomline with that scenario is that it's on that country's government, not SE or the LGBT community, but the right to play a video game isn't likely to be firm ground to stand on when rising up against your government's stance on LGBT, and again, we're talking about a sticker that can easily just be roleplayed into existence for the exact same outcome. On top of that, a hetero-only system wouldn't actually be entirely restrictive on RL homosexual couples. If there are RL heterosexual couples where one is playing the opposite gender from themselves, there's just as likely to be homosexual couples where one is doing the same thing, meaning their characters could still get married. -
02-16-2014, 06:31 AMNaunetYa'll keep saying things like this, and yet I have seen not a single instance of any kind of "storm" brewing for any MMO with regards to things like this, except when the "storm" is in response to exclusion (i.e. SE considering not allowing same-sex marriage in their system).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
Stop making stuff up. Seriously. -
02-16-2014, 06:39 AMstephenjd3
I dont see the big deal, let homosexual couples marry in game. Its a god damn game, if people dont want to play it for that reason, forget them.
If anything, websites like IGN, gamespot, PC gamer, and other magazines and websites will prob commend Square enix, and give them more publicity if anything helping their sales I bet. -
02-16-2014, 06:53 AMAlexander_Dragonfang
I love how haters of equality want to make this a "volatile debate" that is better not taken into account and to leave marriage system out of the game.
Point is, this game is a chance for many to stablish good and perpetual relationships, and though only symbolical, the word marriage still has a weight for those people. Even if they are a vast, vast minimal of individuals, granted that such a system is so easy to implement, id say same sex marriage is something this game needs.
If you dont want to, dont participate of it, but just because you dont like or want to be part of something, that means everyone else has to see how that option is rejected.
Even if 1 couple out of 10.000 players is an homosexual couple IRL that can archive marriage symbolicaly through this game, its already more than enough to make said option not only valid, but a must. -
02-16-2014, 06:54 AMmmcsky
There are more important things to fix than getting married on this game. Equality in itself has turned into favoritism these days, do not sugar coat it, if you want special arrangements outside of the status quo in a world that should hold no strings to real life problems, you should be aware that there are others who require the same thing just because they have the same power as you do.
I also find it quite amusing that everyone seems to be so enthusiastic about marriage in a virtual world, when in reality divorcing happens as often as marriage.
Like people say,they are all in for marriage not because they mean it but because they want the buffs. You all are in for marriage because of the buffs, how pathetic. -
02-16-2014, 07:23 AMZaels
Buffs? If marriage will give characters stat buffs then I don't ever want to see it in this game.
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02-16-2014, 07:28 AMFioranaI can say the same thing though, let heterosexual couple marry in game only, its a god damn game, if people don't want to play it for that reason forget them.Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenjd3
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02-16-2014, 07:46 AMLicusThis this this this this x 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenjd3
To hell with who ever considers homo marriage in this game a bad thing, the dev's included. Fuck the people who are too uptight to progress socially and fuck any game company that wants to pick old fashion religious values over social forwardness.
The world will move on and those people can live in their dark tiny world of confining social customs.
If SE is afraid of breaking a few eggs and alienates their gay players, ESO is it!. If SE wants to give homos a big middle finger, I will give it right back to them. There are plenty of forward thinking game companies that can have my money.
It's hard for some people to understand why this is important. It sucks when you face conservative anti-homosexual bull shit all the time in every facet of your life. Stuff like marriage equality is really close to home for a lot of LBGT. When you log into a game and you are reminded that:
"hey, even though I have a partner of eight years I cannot even get fucking pretend married in a game because of idiot bigot ass holes,"
it only serves as a reminder as to why am I even paying a game company that is not inclusive to my life style. -
02-16-2014, 07:54 AMDuelleWhich makes said storm out of turn on several levels. Hydaelin is a fictional setting. XIV's cultures are not those of earth. The values or lack thereof in the fictional setting are not reflective of the real world, and as such we should not be bringing stuff from our world into XIV's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naunet
PS: SE already said their piece on this during beta, where they pretty much said they would not include it since it is seen as a controversial topic. A pointless shitstorm ensued and several of the marriage threads were deleted since they all devolved into crap thanks to that argument. As I've said before, I push for non-involvement because it gives people what they want without forcing SE's hand for anything other than production of items and assets. -
02-16-2014, 07:58 AMLicusYou really can't say the same thing without look like a fool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiorana
One statement supports sexual equality and promotes a more fair environment to segment of the games population. The only adversely effected people are bigots and socially backwards people who want to explicitly control the actions of another group solely for comfort reasons.
The other statement discriminates and alienates a group of people who want nothing more than to be their selves.
One side of the homosexuality debate is ass backwards and wrong. It's like siding with any historical injustice and saying "hey, those people who suppressed women rights had a valid opinion." Opinions that subjugate, discriminate, exclude, and/or suppress any human beings are flat out 100% wrong! -
02-16-2014, 07:58 AMMogi
Pfff do i wan't them to add Marriage yes why not? let everyone get married girls and girls guys and guys. Why it has nothing to do with being gay {so plz stop acting like it dose} this is a game if i'm a girl and want to marry a girl that's my buddy then let me this is only for fun nothing more {but i do hope we get a mount or a cool looking pet for geting married} this is a game ppl play it for fun. This is not sword art online nothing in this game will happ to you in real life so when thinking about Marriage think of it as a fun gimmick nothing about it is real can't we enjoy our fake world with out all this drama BS?
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02-16-2014, 08:06 AMNaunetActually, what they said was that they would continue to take community feedback into account regarding the topic and that they hadn't come to a decision yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
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02-16-2014, 08:30 AMstephenjd3you misunderstand, there's no argument over whether heterosexual couples can marry, there not a group that will be forgotten, by letting heterosexuals only marry, the LGBT community is neglected, but by catering to both, no one is neglected. So the best approach in my opinion giving all groups equal opportunity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiorana
I personally will play the game either way, but it be nice to see Homosexual couples be able to marry each other. Its a big step for SE to take, but more people will respect them for it. -
02-16-2014, 08:31 AMTahldon
Well, why not change the specifics of the entire system so that it includes people of both genders without the controversial meaning of "Marriage" being thrown into it. As I stated earlier... why not just re-instate and re-invent the "Path Companion" system?
The Path Companions of 1.0 used to be aides that assisted our Adventurers on their missions, but they've since been taken out. They were, in a sense, adventurers in their own right and had goals and ambitions the same as the player.
They could just put this system back in and gear it towards the Bonding of two Adventurers to become "path companions". It doesn't matter what gender you are or what race your character is, anyone can walk the Path of the Twelve with the companion of their choosing. An accessory could be swapped between the two for whichever buffs they plan on implementing in any case. The bonding ceremony could be held at the Sanctum of the Twelve and there could be lots of lore wrapped around it. Naturally, it'd be a formal ceremony, similar to a wedding so they could give players the reason to dress in formal wear.
Hopefully Hvinire or Camate will dig deep enough to find the suggestion. I think in this aspect, nothing can be argued from any side. -
02-16-2014, 09:47 AMKyoskai
We shall call it the "Best Friend Rings" and it will be glorious.
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02-16-2014, 09:56 AMDuelleI've joked in the past that 1.0's path companions felt like an arranged marriage, so what you're suggesting is not only funny, but makes perfect sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahldon
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02-16-2014, 10:00 AMmmcskyThis ^ BRILLIANT! Make it so!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahldon
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02-16-2014, 10:25 AMTrypichSo this is about ESRB ratings and politically correct fun? About not brewing storms?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
You do realize that Final Fantasy XIV: ARR includes the following already: rape, war, poverty, class strife, vulgarity, violence, homicide, murder, sexual content, alcohol consumption, banditry, paganism, private military companies, magic, occultism, references to the six major world religions (all out of their original context), firearms, bladed weapons, and probably lots of other things I'm forgetting.
And you do realize that other forms of media on the market have been banned for much, much, much less? Remember Harry Potter? This is from an external website: "Ever since becoming popular, the Harry Potter series has been among the most frequently challenged books, as measured by the American Library Association. While the series has been welcomed by many parents and teachers for getting children interested in reading, not to mention being a good story, others feel that the series presents dangerous ideas and attitudes that are bad for readers. In some parts of the United States and United Kingdom, the Potter books have been banned from being read in school, taken out of libraries, and even burned in public." (Source here at Infoplease.)
You have a very hollow argument. Final Fantasy XIV is already an extremely mature game. Many of the scenarios it contains have gotten other books, games, movies, and television shows in a lot hotter water.
Because things are changing and people won't sit around anymore.Quote:
which is perfectly fine and no one cared about even a few years ago in terms of MMORPGs.
Why the shock quotes?Quote:
'equality'
Uh, no. Games have been changed, altered, edited, banned, censored, or re-packaged for a variety of reasons since their early days forty years ago. See Final Fantasy 4 and the re-edited sprites as an example.Quote:
start having to adhere to real world politics
Working towards equality means working. It isn't supposed to be easy. But sitting around and not doing anything because you're afraid send a stronger message to the people of various groups. It says: "You aren't worth working for."Quote:
I'm all for 'equality' but pushing it in video games..starts to take the enjoyment out of it because then developers have to be extremely cautious on what they do and who they support when they could just do whatever even a couple years ago with no issue.
I'll close with something David Gaider said, speaking on behalf of same-sex romances in the series Dragon Age, developed by Bioware:
Quote:
The “rights” of anyone with regards to a game are murky at best, but anyone who takes that stance must apply it equally to both the minority as well as the majority. The majority has no inherent “right” to get more options than anyone else.
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02-16-2014, 10:41 AMTupsiYou mean how back when games targeted towards younger audiences (you know, back in the day when Nintendo consoles were considered the 'family system'?) would edit nudity out or have hidden little tibits that slipped past because they aren't apparent (i.e the naked lady in a Seiken Densetsu book enemy page?) That was to adhere to censorship laws if they wanted business within America (and sometimes Europe), have any video games that had to throw in 'equality' in order to be sold in a country? Since the example you used is basically trying to state that many years ago companies had to target everyone with their video games of all walks of life..when we all know that isn't true.Quote:
See Final Fantasy 4 and the re-edited sprites as an example.
So basically, you reconfirm what I stated: We can't have nice things anymore because if the developer isn't careful, there will be people raising up a storm in order to get the "issue" corrected? This topic is exactly why SE said they won't even think of adding a marriage system unless there's solid feedback requesting it.Quote:
Because things are changing and people won't sit around anymore.
Highly doubt it has anything to do with fear - All it does is make a developer second guess if they should even bother if every time they do something a group of people will continue to turn it into an issue when one doesn't exist. Like I said, look at this cute little valentine's event and how certain topics (that got deleted) sprouted up about SE treating the lgbt community unfairly by making them "pay" when "straight people don't get taxed"...so yeah, as said, I'm all for equality but is a video game really the place to push this political issue?Quote:
Working towards equality means working. It isn't supposed to be easy. But sitting around and not doing anything because you're afraid send a stronger message to the people of various groups
Also, you used Bioware and their games as an example, now - if we break it down, we'll know that those games are designed to basically be "realistic" in terms of not only dialog but character develop.
Final Fantasy XIV and vast majority of MMORPGs aren't designed to mimic the real world. In Mass Effect, you could be gay or straight, now if we recall what universe that is...there's aliens who don't follow the "standard" human protocol for relationships, e.g Asari, Rachni or Vorcha for example. The funny thing is, whenever someone mentions to bring in some realism or real worldness into GAMEPLAY, people go CRAZY and tell you to go away because it's a "fantasy game" and "not the real world"...
Why of all things should this be the 'acceptable' request? I get what his statement means...which was more toward explaining why they did what they did in their games since Fox news was all over them, much like any GTA release. (remember that controversy on every single release even though the games are amazingly fun?) -
02-16-2014, 11:15 AMIfritReborn
Why is it that so many in this horrible community are against choice? Options?
This isn't the only topic where people will vehemently slam against having an option or a choice or a toggle. It's their way or nothing and quite frankly it's disgusting and appalling and I feel sorry for the children they raise.
I pay $15/month. If I want to have a same-sex marriage I should be able to, because I'm paying the same $15/month as the ones having the hetero wedding. It doesn't affect anyone, people aren't automatically going to get an invite in their mail to a ceremony, a notice isn't going to pop up on people's screen that I'm having a same-sex wedding, people won't even know. And if it does somehow end up getting your attention, IT DOESN'T CONCERN YOU! MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS! -
02-16-2014, 11:55 AMstephenjd3
what people do not unerstand about equal opratunity is mind blowing
its EQUAL, all the LGBT community is asking is to be treated as equals, forget the politics forget it all. Look at yourself as a person, and ask yourself why you can't give the LGBT community the equal right to choices in game just as anyone else? -
02-16-2014, 12:06 PMDuelleWhat is mind-blowing is that some of you can't see beyond your own noses. SE is a Japanese company, and the Japanese seem to have a certain stance on that topic. Forcing the issue (which is what you and your ilk are doing) is not doing you any favors, and instead moves the topic of weddings and marriage systems in MMORPGs into the "oh look this stupid topic again" category.Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenjd3
I happen to live in the US and was glad to hear gay marriage become legal in the states it has, continue to hope it does in the rest of the country, and still joke that divorce lawyers are the biggest winners in that entire movement. That said, that argument and the struggle for equality belongs on planet Earth, not in Hydaelin. If you want to fight for equality in context that actually matters (AKA the real world), then go lobby for legalization of same sex marriages and all the stuff that comes with it and stop souring the already toxic atmosphere of an MMORPG discussion forum. Much like with politics, that stuff simply does not belong here.
Not that you'll care but I'm going to ignore this thread moving forward, before the inevitable delete/close comes in.
Do us all a favor and develop this idea in detail, even present it as a suggestion thread to the devs. Twelve know we need good suggestions like this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahldon