Tanks Who Constantly Queue and Then Withdraw Trying to Get in Progress Instances

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Originally Posted by Hanabira

I love how people are saying that its intended that "join in progress" should ONLY allow you to join dungeons in progress. But here is a good question, if everyone could join an in-progress dungeon and not also be in the queue to start from the beginning, then who is going to start fresh dungeons?

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This. That's the reason why the feature lets you to ALSO join parties in progress (and not only). So basically if a tank is withrawing because he doesn't join in-progress run, he does NOT use the feature as intended.

Is he allowed to do that? I guess yes, it's not against the rules and SE can't really verify the reason of the player withrawing.
Is it ethic? IMO not.

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Originally Posted by Cichard

if thats the case and there are that many tanks queueing that the nano second it takes for the tank to drop queue then you should get one on the next queue pop.

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Existence of one other tank who happened to queue at the same time is evidence of a huge number of tanks flooding the queues?

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Huh? No, I said that giving someone an automatic several minute lockout just for pressing the withdraw button once or having the timer run out would be punishing honest players. My solution only punishes those who are deliberately abusing the system.

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but its not abusing the system to look for an inprogress dungeon and dropping from queue till you find one. its intended. so its not making me dishonest by doing this. queueing for the sake of just queueing and dropping with no intention of doing a dungeon would be dishonest and trollish. but looking specificlly for an inprogess dungeon is not abusing the system... its using the system as intended.

Makes me wonder how often players spend the same amount of time in-progress fishing that it would have taken to actually play the content they're trying to skip....

Oh, oh, maybe SE should specifically cater to those players and implement a end-of-dungeon-only instance, where you only have to fight the last boss and get the same rewards as those doing the whole dungeon. /terribleidea

I don't agree with the OP's punishments (3-day ban) but some kind of penalty should be inflicted upon these "DF trolls". It's gotten especially annoying when trying to do CT - I swear the damn thing triggers 20+ times in the span of a few minutes.

Could you guys imagine the queue times if there were an option to only join in-progress run?

you have to wait until someone (not a premade) creates a party (basically only people who needs a drop from the first boss),then you have to hope its bad enough that someone ragequit, but not SO bad that the run cant win with a new person. the DPS wait would be HOURS lol..

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Originally Posted by Cichard

but its not abusing the system to look for an inprogress dungeon and dropping from queue till you find one. its intended. so its not making me dishonest by doing this. queueing for the sake of just queueing and dropping with no intention of doing a dungeon would be dishonest and trollish. but looking specificlly for an inprogess dungeon is not abusing the system... its using the system as intended.

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If it were intended, you wouldn't need to keep withdrawing to find one.

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Originally Posted by Cichard

it does not hurt other players. It does not INFLATE the time they have to wait in any way. If they have a guy withdraw from queue for 30min they would of still had to wait 30min for a different tank to queue other wise they would of gotten a tank inbetween the time the tank that is withdrawing and the time it took the tank that withdrew to requeue. Its not hurting anyone you only THINK it is.

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o.O

Very, very incorrect. You realize that there are many hundreds if not thousands of players in a single DF server group that are all using it at the same time, right? As many others have stated in this thread, this abuse of the system by inconsiderate tanks can actually significantly increase the wait time due to the group being leapfrogged. Just a single example of this (there are more) is that the abusing tank takes up the tank slot. But in the time that he is wasting before pressing the withdraw button or letting the timer run out, another tank becomes available. But because of the abusing tank, the system thinks that their group is filled and puts the non-abusing tank that just came on in the next party.

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Originally Posted by Cichard

but looking specificlly for an inprogess dungeon is not abusing the system... its using the system as intended.

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Going by your logic, hiding on the tree branch/speed death pull of AK was also "working as intended" right?

Oh wait.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

This, on the other hand, is an example of a poor solution that would punish honest players who happen to be in combat or some other situation where their timer may run out accidentally.

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So it's a poor solution because you were already in the middle of something preventing you from accepting or were AFK? Both of which a few minutes are likely pretty irrelevant. I don't see how the honest player is being "punished".

Alternatively you don't understand the need for the queue timing out being included. You don't want to be waiting 45 seconds each attempt from that guy trying to get an in-progress.

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Originally Posted by Cichard

but its not abusing the system to look for an inprogress dungeon and dropping from queue till you find one. its intended. so its not making me dishonest by doing this. queueing for the sake of just queueing and dropping with no intention of doing a dungeon would be dishonest and trollish. but looking specificlly for an inprogess dungeon is not abusing the system... its using the system as intended.

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Actually, you don't know if it was intended or not. SE, with their limited experience with these types of things, not to mention culture gap, may have thought that people would not do things like this. It may not have ever occurred to them. They may of thought that people using it would still take a full run if no in progress came up.

That's the point, you don't know. What we DO know, is it annoys the hell out of the other people waiting in queue.

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Originally Posted by Cichard

then again if there are that many people that a nano second of being with a queue pop another group fills i'm sure you will get a tank the next queue pop. I'm sorry but you are blowing this out of proportions for no reason. it doesnt increase your wait time it only seems like it is because you are now getting queue pops...... really... its not a big deal..

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He said another tank, not 50 other tanks. You're skipping over the point. You're doing your queue/drop/queue/drop routine. In the next few minutes a SINGLE tank pops into queue, right at the point you haven't hit withdrawal yet. Second group gets it, not the one watching you drop constantly.

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Originally Posted by Cichard

Im not hurting anyone else.

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The thing, Cichard, is that some says that it messes up with the queues.

In my experiences solo queueing as black mage, it changes nothing. I've never waited more because people were withdrawing.
Banning them won't make your 1h queues turn in 30m queues... hell, it'll probably be even worse since now there's less people in the system.

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Originally Posted by Hanabira

I love how people are saying that its intended that "join in progress" should ONLY allow you to join dungeons in progress. But here is a good question, if everyone could join an in-progress dungeon and not also be in the queue to start from the beginning, then who is going to start fresh dungeons?

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People who needs loot from the Bone Dragon. People Spiritbonding. Pre-mades. People who are bored and wants to play an instance.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Actually, you don't know if it was intended or not. SE, with their limited experience with these types of things, not to mention culture gap, may have thought that people would not do things like this. It may not have ever occurred to them. They may of thought that people using it would still take a full run if no in progress came up.

That's the point, you don't know. What we DO know, is it annoys the hell out of the other people waiting in queue.

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Ok it may annoy them... but it doesnt hurt their queue time in any way. and i'm sorry if someone is gonna queue for an dungeon in progress thats their choice and untill SE says its against the rules there is nothing anyone can do about it. and honestly i think its not a big deal at all and people are just QQing about because they have nothing else to do.

No one here has ever had to wait an additional 10-15+ mins because someone keeps spam withdrawing at 23/24? this happens ALL that time, theres no way you cant say it doesnt interfere with queues.

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Originally Posted by Hanabira

No one here has ever had to wait an additional 10-15+ mins because someone keeps spam withdrawing at 23/24? this happens ALL that time, theres no way you cant say it doesnt interfere with queues.

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but how do you know its EXTRA 10-15min. what if that guy never queued at all.... you would still BE WAITING those 10-15 min looking for a tank or the last spot that wants to do a full run. there is a GAP in time between the person withdrawing and them requeueing if there was someone else to fill that spot it would fill it in that time frame. So NO you are not waiting 10 or 15min more.

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Originally Posted by Cichard

Ok it may annoy them... but it doesnt hurt their queue time in any way.

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Again, you are flat out wrong. It can and does hurt people's queue times. While that abusing tank is messing with Party A, a non-abusive tank comes on and gets put in Party B because the abusing tank happened to be in-between withdraws and the system thinks that Party A has been filled (it can't predict that the abusing tank is going to withdraw in a couple seconds).

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Again, you are flat out wrong. It can and does hurt people's queue times. While that abusing tank is messing with Party A, a non-abusive tank comes on and gets put in Party B because the abusing tank happened to be in-between withdraws and the system thinks that Party A has been filled (it can't predict that the abusing tank is going to withdraw in a couple seconds).

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then again if there are that many people that a nano second of being with a queue pop another group fills i'm sure you will get a tank the next queue pop. I'm sorry but you are blowing this out of proportions for no reason. it doesnt increase your wait time it only seems like it is because you are now getting queue pops...... really... its not a big deal..

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Again, you are flat out wrong. It can and does hurt people's queue times. While that abusing tank is messing with Party A, a non-abusive tank comes on and gets put in Party B because the abusing tank happened to be in-between withdraws and the system thinks that Party A has been filled (it can't predict that the abusing tank is going to withdraw in a couple seconds).

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And how do you know this happens? What proof do you have? Its possible I'm sure, but I'm 100% positive this isn't the case 100% (or even half of the time...) of the time when there is perpetual withdrawals.

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Originally Posted by Amyas

And how do you know this happens? What proof do you have?

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exactly they are like BUT BUT BUT IF IF IF, That stuff doesnt happen and all of this isnt a big deal... in the grand scheme of things dungeon queues for CT are short. I think the longest as a dps ive ever waited has been 15min. most the time i just do a premade 8man and get instantly.

One thing no one has noticed. Is the two strongest supporters of DF-Ditching.

Are both Lalafel.

Both on Midgardsormer.

And both in the Veritas Obscura Free company.

Cichard <-Link

And

Mailstrum <- Link

So, at best, Cichard called in a FC mate to support his argument. At worst, he is using an alt character to support his own argument because no one else would.

Just because something works withing the game mechanics, does not mean it is working as intended.

no youre wrong, it was an extra 10-15 minutes because i had to keep clicking "enter" over and over and over until that person found his in-progress dungeon and then the queue finally gives us a person with a soul. And if i dont keep clicking enter when it pops, then IM the one that gets booted out of the queue and have to wait all over again.

And with the way the CT DF works, even with a premade party, you have to deal with 16 other people, and its very common that someone is spamming withdraw, especially at the end of the week

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Originally Posted by Kazamoto

One thing no one has noticed. Is the two strongest supporters of DF-Ditching.

Are both Lalafel.

Both on Midgardsormer.

And both in the Veritas Obscura Free company.

Cichard <-Link

And

Mailstrum <- Link

So, at best, Cichard called in a FC mate to support his argument. At worst, he is using an alt character to support his own argument because no one else would.

Just because something works withing the game mechanics, does not mean it is working as intended.

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yes i am an FC mate... but no he didnt call me in. I have my own opinon on the matter. and i am not the ONLY person supporting this...

Being a tank sitting next to a dps has permitted me to test the theory that the people in the group that had someone withdraw are put at the front of the line is incorrect.

Easiest way to test this is using Main Scenario DR, have the dps queue then when they are placed in reservation there is always at least one tank still needed. At this point the tank queues getting placed into that same group. Someone then either withdraws or misses the queue. At this point the tank is immediately placed in another group but the dps has another 30-45 minute wait as they were sent to the back of the dps line.

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Originally Posted by Amyas

And how do you know this happens? What proof do you have? Its possible I'm sure, but I'm 100% positive this isn't the case 100% (or even half of the time...) of the time when there is perpetual withdrawals.

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*sigh* Do I really have to point this out to you?

" It can and does hurt people's queue times."

Nowhere did I ever write "This is the case 100% of the time". But it CAN and DOES negatively affect people's queue times quite often.

Honestly, the solution is fairly simple.

Just make a queue that is for people waiting for an in-progress run. The wait times will be longer but at least people wanting to do full runs can go on their business and people who want to do partial runs can go on their merry way. The waiting for in progress queue would probably be a much longer wait (since they are waiting for full parties to lose someone either by kick/dc/or other means). So, after about 15 min, a pop-up window should appear and ask the player if they'd like to form a new party or continue waiting for an opening.

Now, a few changes. Don't show the progress in a dungeon. Why? Well, if you do, you'll still get the issue of people withdrawing. Just pull the player in. Once they are in they have a choice to withdraw...with the normal 30min duty finder penalty for being the first to withdraw.

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Also random side note, holy crap to the people asking for bans. Prime example on why your community should never be listened to for any sort of development suggestions. Banning, seriously? What a horrible, horrible solution.

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Originally Posted by Hanabira

no youre wrong, it was an extra 10-15 minutes because i had to keep clicking "enter" over and over and over until that person found his in-progress dungeon and then the queue finally gives us a person with a soul. And if i dont keep clicking enter when it pops, then IM the one that gets booted out of the queue and have to wait all over again.

And with the way the CT DF works, even with a premade party, you have to deal with 16 other people, and its very common that someone is spamming withdraw, especially at the end of the week

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first off you do not have to keep clicking it.... if someone with draws before the timer is up you dont need to click it.... you only need to click it before your timer is up. it if goes away before your timer is up it doesnt effect you. and it is not increasing your time....

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Originally Posted by Kazamoto

ITT lalafell conspiracy http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...4/yesitis2.gif

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http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...er-clap-hq.gif

Players that are arguing against it are the ones most likely taking advantage of the system. No sane player thinks having to press commence over and over and over again is working as intended.

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Originally Posted by Doo

Players that are arguing against it are the ones most likely taking advantage of the system. No sane player thinks having to press commence over and over and over again is working as intended.

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except you do not have to click it..... you can just wait till one actually sticks around and is counting down. If the queue pop is up for more then 10 seconds you can bet its gonna be a full run and only someone that is afk will cause it to fail. anyone looking for inprogress run will click withdraw the second it pops if its not an inprogress run.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

You might consider actually reading what people write before responding.

I only suggested bans for REPEAT OFFENDERS. People who have received the suggested withdrawl penalty on three separate occasions. Just like with criminals on their third strike... you save the more severe penalties (bans) for the repeat offenders.

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but its not against the rules.... so there are NO offenders..... this is not an issue because in 2.2 you can queue full 24mans groups. So all you need to do is join a premade in the party finder and you are good to go. less QQ more Pew pew time to play the game im off work!

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Originally Posted by Hanabira

Youre kidding right? When someone withdraws, it cancels the entire thing, and makes the enter dungeon button pop up again, you HAVE to click it because its asking you if you want to enter the dungeon again, as the person who posted the picture of the constant commences.. he had to click enter dungeon every single time for probably 20 minutes because of you probably

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No you dont...... you do not have to touch a thing... if someone withdraws from the queue the other 23 people dont have to do anything... it auto requeues you. When a dungeon pop with commence and withdraw pops up you do not have to click that right away... you can let it count down for like 10 seconds to see if anyone is gonna withdraw. what makes you think you have to click that crap every time it pops.... daft people are daft.

It is really much more simple than all this.

People should be able to play how they like.

Except, when the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few.

When you inconvenience 23 people, because killing 2 more bosses is an inconvenience, you are in the wrong.

From SE's point of view, they likely thought that 'join in progress' would be a nice way for players to help each other should someone DC or abandon duty.

But I promise that SE cares more about the subscription fees of the 23 vs the fees of the 1.

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Originally Posted by Cichard

exactly they are like BUT BUT BUT IF IF IF, That stuff doesnt happen and all of this isnt a big deal... in the grand scheme of things dungeon queues for CT are short. I think the longest as a dps ive ever waited has been 15min. most the time i just do a premade 8man and get instantly.

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30 mins of constant DF popping and dropping on Sunday as Scholar.

Believe it. That's almost as long as the raid itself.

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Originally Posted by Cichard

except you do not have to click it..... you can just wait till one actually sticks around and is counting down. If the queue pop is up for more then 10 seconds you can bet its gonna be a full run and only someone that is afk will cause it to fail. anyone looking for inprogress run will click withdraw the second it pops if its not an inprogress run.

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lolno. They range from it dropping before it's even popped on my screen to the full 40 odd seconds. And always, it's back to the 23/24 waiting.

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Originally Posted by Cichard

and it is not increasing your time....

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As a previous poster said, this is wrong

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Being a tank sitting next to a dps has permitted me to test the theory that the people in the group that had someone withdraw are put at the front of the line is incorrect.

Easiest way to test this is using Main Scenario DR, have the dps queue then when they are placed in reservation there is always at least one tank still needed. At this point the tank queues getting placed into that same group. Someone then either withdraws or misses the queue. At this point the tank is immediately placed in another group but the dps has another 30-45 minute wait as they were sent to the back of the dps line.

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/micdrop

I like the "A player has withdrawn blah blah blah" spam that fills my chatbox for 10+ minutes before the specific instance can begin.

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Originally Posted by Cichard

. you can just wait till one actually sticks around and is counting down.

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I prefer just having to hit commence once or twice to actually commence. Why is it call commence?

http://s28.postimg.org/gtw21w9n1/ffx...014_221345.jpg

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

3 days ban for checking the "Join in progress" box, and wanting to actually join a group in progress?
Are you for real?

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that or a punch right in the you-know-what(s) :|

But seriously, I believe you should only be able to check for an in progress run 5 times every half an hour (the timer starts once you begin the search) and if you decline all 5 of your given queues, you get the deserter penalty. It is really ridiculous sometimes.

But I also believe it really only needs to be limited to CT at the moment. Or maybe they could just remove the raid progress from CT's queue window.

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

3 days ban for checking the "Join in progress" box, and wanting to actually join a group in progress?
Are you for real?

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You might consider actually reading what people write before responding.

I only suggested bans for REPEAT OFFENDERS. People who have received the suggested withdrawl penalty on three separate occasions. Just like with criminals on their third strike... you save the more severe penalties (bans) for the repeat offenders.

You know... I also find it kind of funny that some people seem to think that working as designed is the same thing as working as intended.

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Originally Posted by Cichard

first off you do not have to keep clicking it.... if someone with draws before the timer is up you dont need to click it.... you only need to click it before your timer is up. it if goes away before your timer is up it doesnt effect you. and it is not increasing your time....

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Youre kidding right? When someone withdraws, it cancels the entire thing, and makes the enter dungeon button pop up again, you HAVE to click it because its asking you if you want to enter the dungeon again, as the person who posted the picture of the constant commences.. he had to click enter dungeon every single time for probably 20 minutes because of you probably

People cry and complain over anything no matter how trivial. Is it really that terrible that they withdraw? If they stay in the party they do not want to be in they will just end up being douchey. Let them be and wait for someone who actually want to play with you.

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Originally Posted by LoLo

People cry and complain over anything no matter how trivial. Is it really that terrible that they withdraw? If they stay in the party they do not want to be in they will just end up being douchey. Let them be and wait for someone who actually want to play with you.

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If they are going to be a douche because they sometimes have to do a WHOLE dungeon.. they shouldn't be playing MMOs. There is also a point where they are clicking withdraw longer than the amount of time they saved, completely defeating the purpose of why they are doing it, and just being a nuisance to everyone they get stuck in the queue

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

You might consider actually reading what people write before responding.

I only suggested bans for REPEAT OFFENDERS. People who have received the suggested withdrawl penalty on three separate occasions. Just like with criminals on their third strike... you save the more severe penalties (bans) for the repeat offenders.

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I've read it countless times to be sure I wasn't misreading.
Withdrawing is not an "offending action". SE will never ban someone because they don't want to kill the Bone Dragon with you.

Get over it. Make a premade if it bothers you that much.