Best in Slot for SMN after 2.1?

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Originally Posted by Georgevonfranken

That's the same logic for the blm spell speed set, but as a smn it is very rare for me to have to break a cast, we have short casts with shadow flare being the only one over 2.5. Maybe while learning fights having a spell speed set would be useful.

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There are certain points in the Titan Ex fight where I know Miasma will finish only if I really risk a landslide. There are some times I break a ruin while dodging, where if I just had a smidgeon of spell speed, I'd have finished it. Some of the time you really just can't afford to risk the potential for lag on mechanics, but the overall benefit of SS is so minor and subjective that it is hard to quantify, especially when it comes to BiS.

Generally if I had to break a cast to dodge I could use Ruin 2 while on the move. But I've also gotten pretty used to exactly how many casts I can get off before I need to move during fights like ex primals and coil. Like I can use RS, drop all 3 dots and hit contagion/fester as I dodge Titan's first landslide in EX, pop a shadowflare and be in position to stack/dodge the first set of weights, start ruining and drop virus just before the first MB (lasts for the tumults after if you get it right) and keep going from there.

Usually my speed at dodging/positioning determines if I get two casts instead of one when dodging and my SS hasn't changed much since I started the fights. Actually my SS has probably dropped if anything going into i90 and I'm experiencing the same amount of successful casts as ever.

the ultima ring seems worse than an overmelded astral ring. that's disappointing

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Originally Posted by T0rin

Edit: Definitely more than 1 item is changing. :P Went back to experiment more with other BiS potential sets, I had overlooked some...

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Nooo. So many changes. D: I just barely completed the old BiS by getting the belt...(minus t5 book...myeh...) and now this. ;w;

Such sad. At least I can wear my sexy Summoner pants (or lack-thereof) again. :x

But now I need to hope for allagan gloves if I go with set 2, so I don't have to worry about the ring...

T0rin, I'm also having some trouble with your calculations and was hoping you or someone else who understands the numbers better than me could offer insight. This week I'm in a position to buy either the +1 relic or pants* and tried running the numbers through a spreadsheet to see which one is actually a bigger upgrade. Accounting for base stats and food, the +1 gives me a crit-modified base damage value of 105.467958 and a weighted int of 1072.667559. Buying the pants gives me a base damage of 105.244842 and weighted int of 1093.005167. So I have a higher damage with the +1, yet higher weighted Int with the pants. I know that SS is not a factor since I actually lose 17 by going with the pants. Just to double check myself, I also ran the same numbers you used through it (71 WD, 499 Int, 262 Det, 565 Crit, and 378 SS) and got the same results as you. I'm curious as to how this is possible in the first place, and which purchase would actually benefit me more.

For reference, here's the numbers I used
________WD_____Int_____Det_____Crit_____SS
Control___71_____499____262_____565_____378
Relic +1__69_____461____319_____447_____413
Pants____66_____475____315_____470_____396

*Normally, the +1 would be a no-brainer, but due to accuracy issues I'm forced to use a few i70 pieces in place of i80/90 that I have from gearing BLM.

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Originally Posted by Zheri

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For starters, ignore the int weighting for now, there is a flaw in the logic that causes a bias towards gear with certain stats, and isn't a true representation of the dps potential of the gear. The crit modified damage value is probably the easiest and quickest measure for figuring out a best single upgrade.

In your case... the relic +1 gives a value of 105.5370734 and the pants give a value of 105.2448423. Even though you have to use i70 in place of 80/90 to maintain accuracy, the relic is still a better upgrade. If you were in a more 'normal' situation, i.e. someone who had full i70, going from relic to relic+1 or darklight pants to myth pants, the upgrade choice would be that much easier to make.

So, in terms of DPS, the Relic +1 is a better upgrade. But, a better question is this: Can you get the primal weapon? (Omnitome) If so, that would be a better choice. It's good to help get through the SMN accuracy issues transitioning out of i70 gear, and would allow you to wear your i80/90 BLM pieces, and have myth available. If it was around when I was going from i70 to i90, I'd have gladly used that thing leading up to getting the allagan weapon. But, if that isn't a possibility, the Relic is a better upgrade in the immediate terms.

For kicks, I ran your data through my sim to see which would work best, here's what I got:

Simulation complete - stats = WD: 69, INT: 461, DTR: 319, CRT: 447, SS: 413, GCD: 2.43, PGCD: 2.93, total = 60211 damage
Simulation complete - stats = WD: 66, INT: 475, DTR: 315, CRT: 470, SS: 396, GCD: 2.45, PGCD: 2.95, total = 58750 damage

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Originally Posted by T0rin

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Thank you. I appreciate the help. Hopefully I can get the Omnitome this week making the whole debate moot, but I'm not holding my breath.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

For starters, ignore the int weighting for now, there is a flaw in the logic that causes a bias towards gear with certain stats, and isn't a true representation of the dps potential of the gear. The crit modified damage value is probably the easiest and quickest measure for figuring out a best single upgrade.

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Sorry for the double post, but I actually see what was wrong in the calculations. The entire concept of Weighted Int, as presented, is flawed. Because the absolute value of Int scales with Crit, WD, and to some degree Spell Speed, we would have to choose a gear set and let its delta(Int) be the standard by which we determine stat weights, rather than weighing stats relative to the gear set where 1 Int is always equal to 1 Weighted Int.

Going back to the spreadsheet I made yesterday, I set delta(Int) = 0.1579255, or the value returned using the stats listed under Control, and recalculated. The new totals including base stats and food came out to be slightly more than 9 points in favor of the +1. This agrees with both the base damage and the sim, which makes me happy for now. The biggest difference is that now 1 Int =/= 1 Weighted Int.

Giving your "Old BiS" and "New BiS" the same treatment actually produced interesting results, putting the old set on top, which is in line with the crit-adjusted damage values.
"Old" Weights: WD = 6.0490022 . Int = 1.00315465 . Det = 0.2820812 . Crit = 0.1788873 . SS = 0.08943755 . Total = 714.5100490
"New" Weights: WD = 6.0473119 . Int = 0.09807566 . Det = 0.2829711 . Crit = 0.1840486 . SS = 0.08943755 . Total = 709.7806269

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Originally Posted by Zheri

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What stats did you use to calculate the delta int to use in re-adjusting the weights?

You know, the more I think about it, the less value I think there is in using stat weights. Let's stop to think for a second... what does a stat weight really mean?

It is a _relative_ value of a single stat when increased above a baseline value.

What we know about the damage formula is pretty simple: the weight of INT, WD and CRT change with the baseline values. This basically means, that when you take a baseline, and create weights, those weights are only valid if all you do is change a single piece of gear that adjusts your baseline stats by 1 in total. After that, you need to calculate a new set of weights.

So, when you create a baseline that includes all stats in their 'final' (no further upgrades will be applied) form, all you're doing is finding out the current worth of each stat, were you to actually increase any of them by 1, which if this is your actual 'final' set of gear, you won't be. If you take those weights and multiple your current gear contributions by them, all you're doing is finding the value of that using current weights, if you were to apply it all over again, which is something you would never actually do.

Basically, since any weight is really just a value relative to the current baseline if you were to increase a stat by 1, there is no 'magic number' that you can apply to an entire set of gear to find out their worth.

Even if you were to take a baseline from your completely 'naked' state, the weights would not be reliable. Since the relative values of WD, INT and CRT are assuredly going to change as you equip gear, you can't use your pre-gear or post-gear weights to attribute 'value' to the gear set as a total. And since the 'value' of a single point of most stats is relative to your other stats, even a single specific item may be worth more or less to one person, than another. If two people have two different sets of gear, but lack an earring, for instance... one set of gear is DTR heavy and the other set of gear is CRT heavy, the benefit each person will receive from the same piece of gear will be different. If that earring were to be heavy on CRT, the actual contribution to damage will be higher for the DTR heavy gear set, but if the earring were to be heavy on DTR, the damage contribution would be higher for the CRT heavy gear set. Even in this simple example, we can see how there is no such thing as a stat weight that can be used to compare the value of gear, as the value of any piece will be different based on current stats.

I think that due to the variable nature of stat values given the damage formula, we can never really come up with an INT weight or 'stat score' that could be attributed to 1 piece of gear, much less a whole set of gear. At this point, I think the only real way to compare 2 sets of gear is their calculated crit modified damage values, or more accurately, a simmed rotation that uses those values.

And even a sim is only worth so much, because it basically represents doing DPS in a bubble, with no interruptions. And due to the nature of the value of spell speed, those sims might actually need to take into account a certain level of spell interruption (like a Ex Titan fight or whatever), mob availability, (Titan jumps) etc. Basically, no data we come up with will be perfect, but if we can sim out a semi-realistic situation, we can get a good picture of how well a set of gear stacks up against another.

Combo breaker for awhile.

Does any parser actually parse the damage of Summoner + Pet? I mean the merged of it?

In act you can rename the pet to You and it'll merge it.

Apparently you can do something with ACT to combine your damage and Garuda's. I don't use any parsers to verify that though

I see. Thanks alot!

Now you guys can continue crunching numbers. http://i.imgur.com/8jjhLuK.gif

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Originally Posted by T0rin

You know, the more I think about it, the less value I think there is in using stat weights. Let's stop to think for a second... what does a stat weight really mean?

It is a _relative_ value of a single stat when increased above a baseline value.

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The purpose of stat weights is to incrementally adjust gear. They get less accurate further from the baseline (unless you continuously re-calculate them). Hence they should be set at a full i90 random or semi-optimized gear spread (or fully loaded).

If the stat values are pretty close (IIRC, CRT and DTR are closer for DoM than they are for DoW classes), then you'll have to get pretty detailed.

Ideally, you can just plug in the full gear set and calculate the total DPS, and then solve for the highest gear -> total DPS, rather than gear -> stat weight.

That will give you the most accurate BiS.

The main thing is that it's somewhat tedious to automate the "gear configuration -> total DPS" because there may be damage sequence changes (e.g. if you add +400 spell speed, your 'rotation' may change or your resulting ability sequence in general may change).

If you automate that then it's trivial to do the "gear selection -> total DPS estimate" and solve for BiS.

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Even in this simple example, we can see how there is no such thing as a stat weight that can be used to compare the value of gear, as the value of any piece will be different based on current stats.

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That depends on whether you're looking for 100% accuracy or just Really Close To Accurate. Generally speaking it should only take a handful of passes of: (1) select a high iL baseline, (2) measure weights, (3) reconfigure high iL baseline in order to settle on a final configuration. Unless the stat weights are super close (which they are not for DoW).


From what I understand, the prior SMN thought was "max crit". Despite the "large" baseline values of stats in FF14 (400+ crt, 250+ dtr, with 80-150 variable), that's still a very large swing in stats when switching to a "DTR is good" paradigm, and you'd definitely want a few passes and re-setting the weights.

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At this point, I think the only real way to compare 2 sets of gear is their calculated crit modified damage values, or more accurately, a simmed rotation that uses those values.

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For 100% accuracy, yes. Modeled or simmed. However, if CRT is weighted as lower than DTR in a low-CRT configuration, then you know to maximize DTR over CRT (CRT will never get better in terms of value when it's at max value already).

The issue will be at iLevel 100 or 120 or 130 when you have 400 DTR, and then maybe CRT will be as effective, etc.

After reading the numbers and theories, I've decided I'm just going to try and balance stats out while maintaining 443-448 accuracy and i90 and call it good lol. Once I get boots/helm from coil I'll pretty much have every item to mix and match with, so I'll just tinker around and see what I like.

So SMN acc cap is around 450 for Turn 5? I know Melee is around 480. Is 450 not a bit low?

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Originally Posted by KaosPrimeZero

So SMN acc cap is around 450 for Turn 5? I know Melee is around 480. Is 450 not a bit low?

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If memory serves, the caster accuracy cap for current content (includes Coil T5) is ~435.
The reason people go higher on SMN is because pets have a higher cap (and don't inherit food buffs) so ~445 or slightly higher is required.

Melee Acc Cap in T5 is somewhere between 473 and 482.
It will be incredibly rare for you to miss with anything over 472 accuracy, to the point where I'd be triple-checking my log just to make sure it happened... but people have reported the (VERY occasional) miss up to 481 accuracy. Most notably on the T5 snakes.

Dear god, new summoner, mind blown.... *Runs off to his rock and hides under it* This is not the post Im looking for.

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Originally Posted by Maelwys

If memory serves, the caster accuracy cap for current content (includes Coil T5) is ~435.
The reason people go higher on SMN is because pets have a higher cap (and don't inherit food buffs) so ~445 or slightly higher is required.

Melee Acc Cap in T5 is somewhere between 473 and 482.
It will be incredibly rare for you to miss with anything over 472 accuracy, to the point where I'd be triple-checking my log just to make sure it happened... but people have reported the (VERY occasional) miss up to 481 accuracy. Most notably on the T5 snakes.

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Cool, been a while since i played SMN though it was my main till i had to change to MNK. However i really want to pick it back up now. With MNK now just requiring Allagan gear, not much else i can improve on other than Myth hands however the CT hands are good enough for all content now. Seems a waste so now i can invest in SMN :D

I tried to read this thread, but my soul died a little each time this xxalucard fella typed a sentence full of wrongness. :S

Arguing so heavily for some pretty moot points (I mean, we're killing Twin without issue, a couple DPS isn't even a thing), and not really bothering to back it up with anything is just plain silly.

Yea I just can't trust any of these "Simulations", these "theoretically calculated damage results" are just not backed by any precise data as the game itself doesn't give that much info out.
I'll keep going with what I feel is best for me.

Doesn't get much more precise than a precise damage formula when it comes to calculating damage.

how is it possible for the 17 determination from AF2 pants to outweigh the 34 crit from Allagan? Can someone explain how allagan is not BiS?

17 DTR x 34 CRT is not a valid trade.

The other stat matters. What else you are trading if the other stat is acc matters.

So with all your number crunching on stat weights I'm interested in what kind of numbers you're putting up on extreme primals and all the turns of coil. It would dope if we could maintain the credibility of this thread with either videos/parses. I know parses are third party etc so maybe you could link to a google.doc or screenshot of someone elses parser ;)

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Originally Posted by sackm

how is it possible for the 17 determination from AF2 pants to outweigh the 34 crit from Allagan? Can someone explain how allagan is not BiS?

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I thought the same to myself,

my original gear setup has the alagan pants however my crit was at 564 already. I believe (from my understanding of the forum) that after a certain threshold crit becomes "useless" in terms of its scaling. so by sacrificing the 34 crit which leaves me at 530 I was able to obtain 17 det. the 30 points that I lost is barely a percent of the overall crit % to gain a higher percent of Det. so in that essence det is more valuable than the crit. I had to change my pieces of around but I believe I was at 497 int 564 crit 278 det 432 acc (crit set) and after the forums my gear set up has 497 int 509 crit 304 det 442 acc. I am still missing some BiS pieces and after my own assessment after running coil for a few weeks I do notice a dps increase on my constant dps if you were wondering.

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Originally Posted by sackm

how is it possible for the 17 determination from AF2 pants to outweigh the 34 crit from Allagan? Can someone explain how allagan is not BiS?

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It isn't, but a lot of people jump on bandwagons & theorycraft math without regard to rotation / class / purpose.

IN reality if you get even 1 more crit from the extra crit rate it would be more DPS than the 17 det. Det is not a guaranteed increase in damage, it's a slight raise to the lower/higher damage window ranges. The actual damage can fall into the same range as someone with less det (or even hit lower than someone with less det) many times throughout a fight.

Only the lowest possible damage hit from both windows would guarantee that more DET is a slight increase in damage, and the same is true for the highest possible hit (within a few damage).

Since both stats are essentially "chance" increases, I rather bet on crit than Det. Though some of the best crit pieces come with det anyway.

How is 1 crit would be more DPS than 17 DET, when infact based on what you're claiming, 17 DET increase the lowest possible damage and highest possible damage by a constant, while 1 crit, as we all know might not evein increase your CRIT chance by 0.001%. Unless you can provide on how much 1 CRIT can give, then there's no way in hell that 1 CRIT is more than 17 DET.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

IN reality if you get even 1 more crit from the extra crit rate it would be more DPS than the 17 det. Det is not a guaranteed increase in damage, it's a slight raise to the lower/higher damage window ranges. The actual damage can fall into the same range as someone with less det (or even hit lower than someone with less det) many times throughout a fight.

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I like how you say that "gambling" on a static increase in damage is risky, but gambling on a 2.3% increased chance to increase damage by less than the alternative is "reliable".

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Originally Posted by Thorauku

How is 1 crit would be more DPS than 17 DET, when infact based on what you're claiming, 17 DET increase the lowest possible damage and highest possible damage by a constant, while 1 crit, as we all know might not evein increase your CRIT chance by 0.001%. Unless you can provide on how much 1 CRIT can give, then there's no way in hell that 1 CRIT is more than 17 DET.

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I think you misunderstood me here. I meant 1 more critical hit during the fight, not "1 Crit" as an exclusive stat.

The allagan legs, for example, give 34 more Crit than the myth ones. Stacking a significant amount of crit in one gearset over another leads me to believe you will [probably] get at least 1 extra critical hit out of it (as opposed to someone using a non-crit set that focuses spell speed and det).

I believe it's something like ~18 crit to = 1% more crit chance. However, this fact is based on another "theorycraft" formula that others have come up with, so it can and may be incorrect. A source for the outdated formula can be found here where the author found:

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Crit Chance % = 0.0693 x CRT – 18.486

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While others have criticized me throughout this thread for not having solid numbers, I'd just like to point out that there are no solid numbers besides what you see in combat. I can't say with confidence what the exact amount of a certain stat must be to = 1 damage or 1% of a rate, because no one outside of SE actually knows the real formula.

I'm not sure why exactly they won't just release that info to us (official denial of allowing us to see crit % in the gear window), but that's how it is.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

I like how you say that "gambling" on a static increase in damage is risky, but gambling on a 2.3% increased chance to increase damage by less than the alternative is "reliable".

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It is not a static increase because the way damage works in this game everything hits in a "window range" and is not guaranteed to hit a certain amount in that window.

There is no "gamble" with DET, you're right. It's guaranteed. Well, guaranteed to barely do anything. If someone (and their garuda) gets a few extra critical hits, they will surpass the damage that 51 more DET would "consistently" produce. That is my point.

If I stand next to you on a dummy, and we sit there spamming ruin, the moment I get that extra critical hit I've done more damage than you.

Focusing on DET "bets" that I will be insanely unlucky with crit procs and that it will take so much time for me to hit one that the slight few points of increased damage on the window edges will add up to hundreds of damage more than me before I get one.

This DET focus also bets that garuda will not get an extra crit proc by that time either, or perhaps will end up with less "enhanced pet actions" spell speed procs than the guy with 51 more DET. (Because if garuda procs spell speed more, he will gradually get in more attacks throughout the fight.)

But hey, what do I know.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

There is no "gamble" with DET, you're right. It's guaranteed. Well, guaranteed to barely do anything.

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Which is more than what crit will get you.

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If someone (and their garuda) gets a few extra critical hits, they will surpass the damage that 51 more DET would "consistently" produce.

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Few extra critical hits? That's asking for a lot from 1%.

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If I stand next to you on a dummy, and we sit there spamming ruin, the moment I get that extra critical hit I've done more damage than you.

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Actually, no. The moment you get that Ruin crit, you've partially caught up to the +1 damage I've accrued over every attack thus far.

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Focusing on DET "bets" that I will be insanely unlucky with crit procs and that it will take so much time for me to hit one that the slight few points of increased damage on the window edges will add up to hundreds of damage more than me before I get one.

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No. Focusing on Crit "bets" that you will get insanely lucky with crit procs.

Focusing on DTR "bets" that the Crit build will be statistically average or worse*.

* Although I'm not as familiar with DoM scaling dynamics, so the DTR stack could potentially have already scaled CRT to the point where it's competitive. Shrug.

So, after reading this thread, and the arguments over which stat is better for SMN I actually went out and tested a few gear sets (Yeah lolparsers) doing 5 minute tests, using Raging once per test, only counting my dps, using Garuda just for contagion. I only did 5 tests on each set, but plan to do more when time allows to get more static numbers and here is what I've found.
Crit set- 496INT, 552Crit, 282 Det, 400SS Det Set- 496INT, 497Crit, 314Det, 400SS SS Set- 492INT, 447Crit, 309DET, 477SS

Crit set, average damage over 5 runs at 63,876 and 212 DPS. My best run was 65,840 216 DPS, worst run was 62,505 210 DPS.
DET set, average damage over 5 runs at 64,280 and 213 DPS. My best run was 65,370 215DPS, Worst run was 63,658 211 DPS.
SS set, average damage over 5 runs at 63,753 and 212 DPS. My best run was 65,250 214DPS, Worst run was 62,785 210 DPS.

Even though this is a small sample, it shows that Crit is what we should expect from crit, being inconsistent with higher spikes, while the Determination build is much more consistent damage.

I will like to add, that spell speed may actually be good for us, my SS set is far from being the best it can be, but I can see, in a fight with very little movement (Turn 5, Garuda Ex, Turn 2) and optimal SS set being best for damage. While, in most other fights it being preference whether you want to run CRIT (Spike) heavy or DET (Consistence) heavy.

When I get the time, I plan on running some more tests, to see if this all holds true over a big sample size.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Few extra critical hits? That's asking for a lot from 1%.

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You have to consider that Garuda has his own crit rate (scaled from gear) along with me. His auto-attack is always going off parallel to whatever I happen to be doing. So if the gear would grant me 1 extra critical hit, then I think it's fair to assume it would also grant Garuda 1 extra critical hit as well.

It's [I believe] more than 1% of a crit-rate difference between gearsets. Counting the pants, head, and hero ring, the crit BiS gearset has 71 more crit. (Pants +34, Head +21, Hero Ring +16)

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Actually, no. The moment you get that Ruin crit, you've partially caught up to the +1 damage I've accrued over every attack thus far.

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You're assuming it's taken over 100 casts for me to get 1 extra crit. (Because the crit would add at least +100 damage compared to a normal ruin.) You're also assuming that your ruins hit higher in the damage window every single time, which is not always true. The same applies to our pets.

It's possible to happen, I agree. But I feel the likelihood of hitting at least one extra one per 100 casts would be worth it.

You also have to take into account that only ruin gets that small +100 damage bonus; fester and enkindle get bigger bonuses and are on longer cooldowns, so an extra crit off one of those abilities is huge.

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No. Focusing on Crit "bets" that you will get insanely lucky with crit procs.
Focusing on DTR "bets" that the Crit build will be statistically average or worse*.

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I respectfully disagree.


*edit*

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Crit set- 496INT, 552Crit, 282 Det, 400SS Det Set- 496INT, 497Crit, 314Det, 400SS SS Set- 492INT, 447Crit, 309DET, 477SS

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Your crit set is not optimal (less than 71 more crit than the other set). If you don't have the BiS pieces to compare, then the tests have little value.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

Your crit set is not optimal (less than 71 more crit than the other set). If your gear isn't the BiS slots to compare, then the tests have little value.

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I am missing 1 BIS piece, and I hardly doubt the 16 crit is hardly going to change the fact that Crit will spike more, but remains inconsistent.

Lets all argue with the guy who hates theorycrafting and maths but still tries to tell us what's BiS. It's about as much fun as arguing science with a creationist.

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Originally Posted by Seobit

Lets all argue with the guy who hates theorycrafting and maths but still tries to tell us what's BiS. It's about as much fun as arguing science with a creationist.

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<3
/10char

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Originally Posted by Kalandros

Yea I just can't trust any of these "Simulations", these "theoretically calculated damage results" are just not backed by any precise data as the game itself doesn't give that much info out.
I'll keep going with what I feel is best for me.

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So you're saying... you'd rather "trust your feelings", than provable math and simulated rotations that you, yourself, can verify look legit? Ok, that sounds like a great idea. The game gives out precise data, numbers on your screen. Take those numbers, compare them to the given formula. They match? Guess what, now you can prove what is actually better, not what just "feels best".

DTR BiS - 94904

CRT BiS - 94556

CRT BiS w/ Allagan head - 94670

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Originally Posted by sackm

how is it possible for the 17 determination from AF2 pants to outweigh the 34 crit from Allagan? Can someone explain how allagan is not BiS?

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It isn't. But the reason myth pants are better in that set is because the set drops myth gloves for allagan gloves (which are a lot more damage) and uses myth pants as a means to make up for the lost accuracy. There is no such thing as BiS for an individual slot, because all that matters is the set as a whole. (because of accuracy)

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

It isn't, but a lot of people jump on bandwagons & theorycraft math without regard to rotation / class / purpose.

IN reality if you get even 1 more crit from the extra crit rate it would be more DPS than the 17 det. Det is not a guaranteed increase in damage, it's a slight raise to the lower/higher damage window ranges. The actual damage can fall into the same range as someone with less det (or even hit lower than someone with less det) many times throughout a fight.

Only the lowest possible damage hit from both windows would guarantee that more DET is a slight increase in damage, and the same is true for the highest possible hit (within a few damage).

Since both stats are essentially "chance" increases, I rather bet on crit than Det. Though some of the best crit pieces come with det anyway.

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Why do you continue to simply outright ignore the math, the only one part of this that can be proven at all? Why do you continue to suggest RNG related reason for why one thing is better than another? You do realize, that over any substantial amount of time, all of this simply averages out, and any scenario you might imagine where RNG goes bad for one set and not for another, is simply NOT a good way to compare what is better than another. You're making very vague generalization about theoretical situations, that if you look at the underlying math (1 point of crit DOES actually average out to be a specific amount of added damage, just like DTR, just like SS, just like INT, just like WD), it can easily prove which stat is better. Take the formula, do the math. DTR is very easily a better stat for average damage added. RNG does not matter. Getting lucky on a crit and not on a couple damage rolls, does absolutely NOT make one stat better or worse than another.

The only bandwagoning going on here is bandwagoning on the side of provable math, which we've lacked for so long.

In reality, the 'old' BiS set (CRT heavy) is almost (within 0.5%) as good as the DTR heavy BiS. There is no reason to argue the merits of CRT in the current SMN itemization. A CRT heavy BiS is just as good as a DTR heavy BiS. But all this vague rationalization going on is doing absolutely nothing to contribute to the conversation, all it does is confuse the issue for people who haven't taken the time to read all the actual proof.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by T0rin

DTR BiS - 94904

CRT BiS - 94556

CRT BiS w/ Allagan head - 94670

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Sorry, for a noob like me who got lost in the 17 pages here, can you please help me figure out what sets these three are? Sorry! ><

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kimahri123

Sorry, for a noob like me who got lost in the 17 pages here, can you please help me figure out what sets these three are? Sorry! ><

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Simulated single target rotations with different sets of gear, to try to show how spell speed affects damage output, and to put some 'reality' to all this theorycrafting.

oh I meant like what pieces in each slots.