Titan Extreme is NOT Fun

game has content that manages to beat me in ways i dont want it to

> bad design

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Originally Posted by Zakarath85

Stop crying, Titan Extreme is easy and fun. If youre shit and cant handle it then go practise until you CAN. Extreme modes are there cause we WANT challanging content, casuals/randoms who lack skill and gear should stay away from it until youve gained appropriate skill to beat harder content.

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Ouch, sorry but im not shit. I have cleared it, have cleared twin, and I realize this fight is still bs. Try not pulling the gear card next time.

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Originally Posted by Nikita

It's Titan Extreme. It's not supposed to be easy, it's supposed to be incredibly difficult...

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It's not incredibly difficult. In fact it's pretty damn easy. It's just also very cheap.

Here's a great industry-eye view of challenging vs punishing content.
http://youtu.be/ea6UuRTjkKs
Or more specifically, the exact point we're talking about with Titan.
http://youtu.be/ea6UuRTjkKs?t=2m10s

Speak for yourself. Titan Extreme gets my blood pumping. The only issue I have is that it requires everyone else to know what the hell they're doing.

Hardcores are so desperate for hardcore content they'll settle for anything as long it makes them feel hardcore.

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Originally Posted by ZeroRains

I clear twintania weekly,

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If you're having trouble with Titan Extreme after throwing in a respectable amount of practice while learning the very obvious attack pattern at the same time, then you're going to have to forgive me for not believing you when you say this.

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Originally Posted by EvokerKeii

It's not incredibly difficult. In fact it's pretty damn easy. It's just also very cheap.

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Define "easy". People say everything is "easy" once it's beaten. Can we be honest with ourselves and say how the content really is once it's beaten? It took me 41 tries in the DF to beat Garuda Extreme, it's hard before i beat it and it's still hard now. That's personally how I feel.

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Originally Posted by Mitsukai123

If you're having trouble with Titan Extreme after throwing in a respectable amount of practice while learning the very obvious attack pattern at the same time, then you're going to have to forgive me for not believing you when you say this.

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http://i.imgur.com/dsKRbkn.jpg?1
Yes, I clear it with my friends. Not a solo effort. I was more in line speaking titan with duty finder/pugs, not endgame t5 groups.

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Originally Posted by EvokerKeii

Here's a great industry-eye view of challenging vs punishing content.
http://youtu.be/ea6UuRTjkKs
Or more specifically, the exact point we're talking about with Titan.
http://youtu.be/ea6UuRTjkKs?t=2m10s

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So true...

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Originally Posted by ZeroRains

duty finder/pugs

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Are you like a masochist or something?

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Originally Posted by ZeroRains

http://i.imgur.com/dsKRbkn.jpg?1
Yes, I clear it with my friends. Not a solo effort. I was more in line speaking titan with duty finder/pugs, not endgame t5 groups.

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then clear titan with ur friends as well?

or try to PUG T5 and tell me how it goes

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Originally Posted by Mitsukai123

Are you like a masochist or something?

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It's sad to think that the only puggable content for progression is CT. Even Coil is turning undoable, I don't know what the hell is going on with people in this game where groups don't last more than 15 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

The only qualm I have about Titan Extreme so far is that dodging plumes seems to be a gamble for me - at least with stacking tactics. Moving by the time I see the plume on my screen sometimes is too late already, no matter how quickly I react. Having to stand still in place with everyone else prevents me from moving pre-emptively, so latency/lag cause me to get hit frequently. I didn't make it to the heart phase yet, but if the plumes were a tiny bit easier to dodge - either smaller, or on a slightly longer timer - I'd be happy enough.

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I'd recommend battle ping if that's the case. My group does it completely by stacking and moves on reaction - no one gets hit except if they're lagging.

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Originally Posted by ROOTFayth

then clear titan with ur friends as well?

or try to PUG T5 and tell me how it goes

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I have pugged t5. and my clear on titan was pugged. Honestly, people trying to make excuses to not state the fact titan is a broken boring mind frustrating fight that is artificially difficult. Please don't bring my experiences to try to prove "titan is wonderful and craps rainbows of loot and fun for all!" Give me a break

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Originally Posted by EvokerKeii

Here's a great industry-eye view of challenging vs punishing content.
http://youtu.be/ea6UuRTjkKs
Or more specifically, the exact point we're talking about with Titan.
http://youtu.be/ea6UuRTjkKs?t=2m10s

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I'm going to quote your post again (like Rochetm).
Can't be propagated enough.

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Originally Posted by EvokerKeii

Or more specifically, the exact point we're talking about with Titan.

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Titan's knockbacks are telegraphed and it's immediately clear what to do to avoid them. Furthermore, knockbacks are an established part of the game and players have been introduced to them well before Titan. I don't think you actually understood the point of the video you linked, I think you're just trying to say "this content is too hard for me, therefor it's 'punishing' instead of 'difficult' and here's this video that talks about that so I'm going to link it and insist that it applies to this scenario."

It's fun aside from the part that yaknow, plumes are a pain in the ass with their slow servers...

How is it them? well it's simple, I always lag enough for it to make it really annoyingly hard to dodge plumes when it's rush hour for FFXIV, so... my ping is reliable always the same (high for it to make it a combination with their server lag actually matter).

So yeah, dodging is fun as long as it's fair. Sadly, for now it is not, atleast until more people quit again and we can have not so crowded servers.

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Originally Posted by Eriatarka12

I'd recommend battle ping if that's the case. My group does it completely by stacking and moves on reaction - no one gets hit except if they're lagging.

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Problem appears when the lag is nonstop, I can still dodge em every time, but I need to sprint for them and pray when sprint is down that I don't lag too much, also while still going out of my way to dodge while lagging.

If your ping is that bad you might just have to resign yourself as unable to do it due to being outside the client-side requirements, its sad but really groups can't carry inconsistent plume dodgers.

I just did it with an amazing pug, with this feeling of achievement I wouldn't want it any other way.

But this is funny, Gaol at the bottom.

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/7444/k9lr.jpg

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

If your ping is that bad you might just have to resign yourself as unable to do it due to being outside the client-side requirements, its sad but really groups can't carry inconsistent plume dodgers.

I just did it with an amazing pug, with this feeling of achievement I wouldn't want it any other way.

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My ping is not bad, is normal, 200 ping is not that high at all... specially when they position their servers like shit like they did, you can't fight the physics rules that make it take more time if you're further away from the server. It's not a routing issue...


Their game mechanics just can't allow a not extremely low latency in combination with their slow stressed servers. I fail to see how this is any of the players fault.

Regardless I can dodge em consistently and I can carry my own weight, however, it is stressing having to deal with the stupid delays. Where no matter how good you do it's still not good enough cause server is very lagged.

This only becomes a problem with plumes, because of their fast reaction, and titan plumes specifically because they are casted always under the player, for example, Ifrit's plumes are always on a set spot, so they are dodgable regardless. Landslide has a slower cast time, so it's dodgable, even though there are some that get !&%"·% lagged, it's just very rare, compared to those plumes that if you were moving spawn really far away from your current position, or if you werent well, goodluck getting away from it in time (sort of).

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Originally Posted by Raikki

Titan's knockbacks are telegraphed and it's immediately clear what to do to avoid them. Furthermore, knockbacks are an established part of the game and players have been introduced to them well before Titan. I don't think you actually understood the point of the video you linked, I think you're just trying to say "this content is too hard for me, therefor it's 'punishing' instead of 'difficult' and here's this video that talks about that so I'm going to link it and insist that it applies to this scenario."

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Um....

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Originally Posted by EvokerKeii

It's not incredibly difficult. In fact it's pretty damn easy. It's just also very cheap.

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He literally said it wasn't hard one post before.


Anyway, imo Titan EM is fine. I personally feel like the trials are something like a designer playground to make crazy fights and experiment with different mechanics in a 'one boss scenario'.
If all the fights were like Titan EM, it wouldn't be fun but you can say that about anything. Bosses need variety and Titan is just one type of fight that they've developed upon. It's not even part of a real raid anyway.

I will say this though. I would enjoy if the game emphasized group coordination more, rather than it's focus on personal responsibility now.
Allagan rot is an example of something you need to coordinate, but it's a terribly simple mechanic (you move like 2 steps every once in a while).

Turn 4 is a really well tuned fight and a great progression fight (though it's very easy after it's done, it's still fun to farm) imo.
It is a great example of a coordinated fight and a good sort of challenge.
Statics all do Turn 4 at least slightly differently cause there are a few ways to approach it.
Not only that, it has demands on dps heals and tanks AT THE SAME TIME (very rare in this game).
There are a good few puzzle pieces and you work with it, and you've got to work together a little more than just doing your part.
This can be done even if it's just one boss, but it's not really like for most of coil.

Each phase is timed and if you fall behind it's hard to make it work.
Tighter dps timers, tighter healing and tanks having to move around. This feels a lot more like how an MMO fight should be like.
Once you get it, it's cake but that makes solving the puzzle all the more satisfying.

Fights like Titan EM that always keeps you on your toes do have their place as well.
Trials can do what they want. I just hope that raid fights are a bit tighter on all the roles.

Also,
Moar raid cooldowns!

I was able to to do Titan HM and I think it is is pretty crappy fight in my opinion. I have not reached Titan EM yet but have a Fc friend that I think quit over this stupid fight. Yes it is doable but you have got to be kidding me with these fights. I hope the game does not keep leaning in this direction.

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Originally Posted by NeruMew

Their game mechanics just can't allow a not extremely low latency in combination with their slow stressed servers. I fail to see how this is any of the players fault.

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It's not their fault, but the fight as it stands leaves no margin for latency, so it's best to just give up if it's that bad and you can't improve it. It's not your fault but it's also not the fault of the other people you play with, and it is really frustrating getting people who keep on trying with their terrible latency.

FWIW I also play with 200-300ms, I don't pre-dodge plumes but my reactions to the tells have to be sharp, and I can only run the radius of a single plume so neat stacking helps.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

It's not their fault, but the fight as it stands leaves no margin for latency, so it's best to just give up if it's that bad and you can't improve it. It's not your fault but it's also not the fault of the other people you play with, and it is really frustrating getting people who keep on trying with their terrible latency.

FWIW I also play with 200-300ms, I don't pre-dodge plumes but my reactions to the tells have to be sharp, and I can only run the radius of a single plume so neat stacking helps.

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I never said I can't dodge... so you should stop saying that it's not my groups fault. It is however SE's fault. This happens to a big part of the players and it's their job to solve these issues, it isn't fair nor right to put a mechanic like this and not make it work around delays.

Honestly, I was completely fine until 2.1. Why? Simply because not as many people were playing the game, nor doing the exact same dungeons all stuck on it. It is exacly like early Titan HM. Exact same lag. The rest of the mechanics are just as easy, but yup, plumes are there to fuck you up over latency.

Regardless I can still work around it, I can dodge consistently every single plume. However it is not fun having to fight around latency like this. It's only annoying.

But anyway.

Btw my ping is consistently 200. So... that is not high.

Also, you can't efficiently predodge plumes, because that gives a big margin of error where you will drop a plume outside of the group stack, possibly killing/injuring another member on your fault.

In terms of challenge, Titan EX is easier than Titan HM. There are far less random elements to the fight and the patterns are shorter and easier to memorize. There's less of an importance on DPS as well.
In terms of punishing, this fight is the worst. One screw up by any of the 8 people and it's almost a guaranteed wipe. Almost every element of the EX fight is unrecoverable. That's not a challenge, that's punishment.
As for changing the rules; yes, knockbacks aren't new. Getting effectively permanently removed from the arena is. You may encounter Titan 3 times but aside from Demon Wall (encountered at the end of the leveling game), this is the only fight that you experience this rule change.

Titan extreme is easier than Titan hard if you ask me. The bomb patterns are easier, the landslide allows you to move to a spot after it goes off before bombs blow, the tumults do not go up each turn so you can take all day to kill him.

Titans attack pattern never changes so you always know what is coming next.

We have a person who is always lagging for some reason even though he is closer than me to the servers. We just stick him in his own area for the pools. If you get hit by 1 pool you will not die.

The fight is fine. It is easier than what I expected from an extreme like i stated above. If you can't do it go practice. If your lag is the problem well that is not really the fight that is the problem then. This game needs fights that are not just handed to everybody. It is not part of the main scenario and is not forced on anybody.

I don't like your definition of fun then, because fighting Titan is great fun.

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Originally Posted by ZeroRains

This game heavily relies on Instant Kill Mechanics to make content difficult. Titan is the only fight IN THE ENTIRE GAME that has the possibility to completely remove you from the fight. On top of pretty much every action he does being an instant kill.

Constant dodging is not only trivial, but frustrating when if you screw up one time your done. I clear twintania weekly, and even twisters aren't as punishing as landslide. Sick of this being considered "fun" Content when half the people have difficulty getting out of ridiculous plumes. Please stop with all these instant kill mechanics that are way to over punishing.

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Yeah, a lot of people seem to consider this as content (maybe this was a thing in WoW, dunno.. never played), but a as a life-long gamer I've never seen so much yawn in a fight. It keeps you on your toes I guess, but it's not creative or challenging, and is more of a roll of the latency dice than anything else. I feel I've gotten pretty accomplished at dodging, but I've had times where I know I couldn't have moved any faster and still gotten WotL'd... usually isn't a problem for me since my ping is usually good, but I can see it in other players and I feel their pain.

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Originally Posted by Skapoc

Mechanics you can't outgear are important to keep content difficult. Otherwise you just gear up and face roll everything and that is a lot less fun then the sometimes agonizing stress of learning mechanics.

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I have to agree this. * but they should also look at the delay / pos. issue

Tbh I love the fight. Really, it's great fun and we laughed a lot when we tried him!

http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acci...7d7c2f28c7.png

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

Whoever is designing those fights has zero creativity.

I already knew he'd be such bs just from seeing the trailer... hopefully I can just buy a kill and move on to have fun on Ifrit.

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Haha. What? There is a lot of problems with this game, but it's pretty ridiculous that SE has to deal with criticism about the stuff that isn't bad as well. No creativity because you can be removed from the fight? Whatever. People thought Titan HM was "super hard" too. If you go in with actual smart people, it's an easy win. Smash it down in under 8 minutes or whatever. Go in with a bunch of bad players, you might be in there for hours. Titan EM, just do the same thing as before: Learn the patterns, and don't eat stuff that removes you from the fight. Get better, and beat it. Nothing in the game is particularly difficult as long as you think about it a bit and don't have the reaction time of a slug.

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Originally Posted by Doo

I hate how most tough fights rely on everyone to be good. One guy falls in Titan and it's over, one guy dies, raise him, gets knocked out again. In FFXI you can sort of recover still but in this game recovering is almost impossible for most fights.

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Just want to reply to this in my still-on-high excitement from our group taking down Titan EX tonight for the first time--

Our first kill happened after I, while tanking him and our OT still having one add left on him, died from a 3rd stack and a healer getting benediction off a split second too late. Titan still had about 20% health left. Not only did the OT keep the match going, but I was rezzed about 20 seconds later successfully, still got the next swap off with him, and proceeded to finish him off the rest of the way.

If someone dies, it IS recoverable. If the tank on Titan can die and the match can still be recovered and won, it IS recoverable.


PS -- I really, really love this fight! Might now be my favorite of the entire game, actually.

This is quite a fun fight. Healed and DPS'd it.

I clear Twintania weekly as well. Screw up on twisters? You're done less you want to waste the healer or summoner's time battle ressing your sorry butt. If you are a DPS class, you just gimped the dreadknight take down as well.

Maybe get gud?

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Originally Posted by Mitsukai123

If you're having trouble with Titan Extreme after throwing in a respectable amount of practice while learning the very obvious attack pattern at the same time, then you're going to have to forgive me for not believing you when you say this.

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Bet you 100k, Mits, that he uses the DBM equivalent for Twin. AKA: don't need to think about it to win with an App telling you everything to do.

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Originally Posted by Avalon_Albrook

If someone dies, it IS recoverable. If the tank on Titan can die and the match can still be recovered and won, it IS recoverable.

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I'm sure it can but often than not it will result in a wipe. That's my point in general. Maybe it's different if you find 8 players that play too much and play together it will become easier to do but that's a whole lot of dedication. That's pretty rare to find in this game with the way it's currently designed where most things are solo friendly. I do enjoy the fights when I find very good players to play with but the problem is that you shouldn't need everyone to be at a high skill level in order to take tackle hard content. I prefer it the way most others mmo does it where the more skilled guy has a bigger effect on the fight to help the lower ones. It will result in a lot less run buying. I think Titan dfers will understand what I'm saying more because the chances of beating it with randoms is like .001 percent.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1730294

I had a thought last night on a way to make Titan a little (lot) more forgiving, and perhaps bring some fun back into this fight. *Dons flame retardant armor*

So lets say that Titan does about 3 landslides a minute, which is roughly correct depending on the phase.
Instead of having a Landslide instantly throw you off the platform and out of the fight, have Landslide deal a flat 3000 damage, and put an "Instability" debuff on you that lasts for 1 minute.
Then if you get hit by ANOTHER Landslide while you have Instability on you, then you go fly off the platform.

This means that missing 1 Landslide doesn't mean you instantly fail. Although if you don't happen to have 3k hp, you do die. Once you do get hit by one, you now MUST dodge the next 2 or you will fail.
IDK, perhaps that's a little too lenient. Lets make Instability last 2 minutes, so you need to dodge 5 out of 6 Landslides every 2 minutes... Ideally you want to dodge all of them, but this way you will not be severely punished for messing up once in a while.

As it stands, Titan feels more difficult and more frustrating than Twintania, but Titan is a DF fight and Twintania is the end boss of the current game... something seems a bit strange about that, no?

People keep bringing up landslide, but that's probably the easiest of his mechanics. With the exception of the tank now having to move occasionally it's exactly the same as the HM version. The main cause of wipes while you progress will be getting used to the new bomb formations and their slight difference in timing from HM.

I think the game has a very healthy diversity in battles, and the dungeons/raids/trials al feel unique, even tougher versions feel brand new, so I'm not worried about a single fight that's been discontinued after Extreme. Now we have Leviathan, Shiva, Ramuh, Moggle Extremes and Coil 2.2 to look forward to in that regard :D

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

People keep bringing up landslide, but that's probably the easiest of his mechanics. With the exception of the tank now having to move occasionally it's exactly the same as the HM version. The main cause of wipes while you progress will be getting used to the new bomb formations and their slight difference in timing from HM.

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The main cause of wipes is generally RNG after heart, and groups not being prepared for the third row being on the tanks side and not properly baiting landslides(goes to both the MT and everyone else).

Either that, or latency issues. I have to use WTFast, because Verizon has been having problems lately. I will agree that the fight is too latency dependent, but what can you do without making the mechanics of the fight extremely easy for anyone that doesn't have latency issues?

At least from my experience.