And so begins the Vote-kick abuse

Hate the vote kick system... Very little chance for ppl to learn extreme modes without some tool deciding someone has "failed" and then boom they are booted... I have seen one error boots through df. Getting so only way ppl can learn anything and get fair rolls is through FC or premades. Elitism and intolerance, even racism is being reinforced and rewarded through this system... Don't be surprised to see player numbers fall SE, especially casuals leaving a games that gives them no chance.

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Originally Posted by Ashgarth

From Reddit:



http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen..._kick_feature/

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Next time lie and tell them you passed....none of their business what you rolled.

Got into CT this evening, in a join in progress 1/4, and was kicked in 10 seconds for no reason. I literally loaded on the screen took one step forward and got thrown back to Mor Dhona with the message I'd been "dismissed" and Labyrinth of Ancients had ended..
So, wait, I was vote-kicked for just entering the instance???

If we ever are trying to get someone some piece of gear we will announce so up front in a PUG and see if we can come to an agreement. Usually it's a give'n'take situation with them wanting something else and we will pass on that.
We have the same discussion with the FC premade as any other premade. So we have a few multi job people and they want some gear for another job but need to go as something else... so we agree to let them greed on that piece of gear if it rolls. So far it's been working well enough.

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Originally Posted by Ranebow

Which is exactly what begs the question, of why do developers still continue to make these games where people need to share loot-able items and/or that they never produce enough to pass around?

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Because players on the whole WANT IT and a section scream loudly against Tome-like barter systems that give you guaranteed rewards for a pre-konowable amount of effort.

Don't ask me why, I don't get it, but every MMO I play sees people whining when RNG-based drops are replaced by something less random.

All that said, given the 1 week lockout in CT clearly SE's reason is nothing more than dragging out the time needed to get a full set .. it's a naked time sink, nothing more.

How about the ability to kick other alliance members? Getting sick of individuals, even entire pre-made parties, entering into Crystal Tower with the sole intention of ruining it for everybody, doing everything in their power to MPK the alliance at every fight while spamming the chat log with endless nonsense. GM tickets are useless for this as there's no way to properly track these players. I've reported these people several times and given their names, but who knows what server(s) they came from.

"Patch comes out so you can't kick during a loot roll"
-Troll goes full on troll when loot drops and doesn't roll on the loot and pulls next boss early and wipes the raid on purpose, and does it twice.

You can't kick the troll because he's still waiting on loot (he didn't roll or pass it), you have to wait for the loot window to expire. But because you already rolled or passed, you can't see it, and don't know how long is left on it. So you end up in another fight. More gear drops, troll does the same thing. You end up finishing the dungeon unable to kick the troll.

Imo, this would only really work if they prevented engaging in new boss fights until everyone has all the loot. E.g. the shields at the front should be closed until all the loot from the previous encounter clears, then you should have 30 seconds to kick someone.

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Originally Posted by Vespar

Got into CT this evening, in a join in progress 1/4, and was kicked in 10 seconds for no reason. I literally loaded on the screen took one step forward and got thrown back to Mor Dhona with the message I'd been "dismissed" and Labyrinth of Ancients had ended..
So, wait, I was vote-kicked for just entering the instance???

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Probably saw that you were a certain job and booted you so X player can get their item guaranteed assuming it drops. Probably had friends in a pre made so yeah, people are douches sometimes.

Ok I was just voted out of the Crystal Tower because you wanted your BLM to have the casting body piece..... I can't.... They need to get that fixed ASAP or take it out all together

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

In the Japanese dungeon forums there's actually a thread discussing this very thing. It's in Japanese but if you can read it there's good insight to what it's like in their shoes.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...95%8F%E9%A1%8C

A lot of them are actually surprisingly understanding to why people queue with J ticked.

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I feel like someone ought to sum this thread up for NA players. Overall, the linked thread is about high level DF content, and how it can be pretty much unclearable if you have someone in the group who doesn't understand the strategy. One interesting thing that was mentioned is that the strategies between NA and JP differ. Like, apparently in JP there's actually an expected order for Alliances to take MT on bosses, whereas in NA it's pretty much "I'm gonna MT this one," or "Who wants to MT?" So you might think "Oh, I know this content so I'll queue JEDF because I'm awesome and can rock it, why are these stupid people doing the wrong thing?", whereas your JP teammates are like "Where is he tanking it? The left? But EVERYONE tanks it on the right...." And if you don't share a language, the auto-translate just isn't good enough to say "So, when you see the message about the abyssal worm, I want you to pick up the crystal and then put it on the sands..."

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Originally Posted by Hvinire

Thank you for your input on the vote dismiss feature. The dev. team is currently discussing countermeasures against potential misuses of the system.

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Countermeasure should have been in place before the feature was released. Abused on AFK or DC/logout reason should be easy and automatic to see if was abused.

If someone is Kicked for AFK, they should get a prompt on a 10 or 15 sec Timer, asking if their AFK, They select yes, kicker punished for abuse.
If someone Kicked for DC/Logout, have the system verify status of said user at time of kick, or have system verify status to even have that reason selectable for kicking.

For the Cheating or Harassment reason. There should be a pop-up window, just like if you went into the menu and reported them, where you have to type in what they are doing. Then it should be treated just like if they were reported.

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Originally Posted by Highlanderx

If someone is Kicked for AFK, they should get a prompt on a 10 or 15 sec Timer, asking if their AFK, They select yes, kicker punished for abuse.
If someone Kicked for DC/Logout, have the system verify status of said user at time of kick, or have system verify status to even have that reason selectable for kicking.

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It honestly baffles me how you people continuously come up with ideas like this without realizing how easy it is for trolls to exploit it the other way around.

Stop asking them to make it easier for single players to troll entire groups. There's no perfect solution but if you make griefing require you to have a group go along with it then it reduces the overall chance it happens.

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Originally Posted by Ashgarth

From Reddit:



http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen..._kick_feature/

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Had a similar thing happen to me a few days back, I reported the people responsible but no clue whether it has been addressed or not.

I was DRG for Crystal Tower. Immediately, after I joined, the other DRG in the party asked "Oh no, do you need the chest?", I replied with kinda a vague answer "I'll roll on the first possible loot that I can use on one of my classes". The run continued on till after the guardian before King Behemoth, I was vote kicked off just by being a threat to that person. This only happened cause he had more than half the party as a premade group.

All is well though, after I got kicked, I re-queue followed by the drop I was looking for. Karma I guess, good karma anywho.

Nonetheless, the abuse of vote kicking is beginning to go rampant. A possible solution to protect solo players is to limit the vote kicking rights of a premade group(half let say, 6-7 member premade will only get 3 voting rights). Let say say a premade group of 6 and two random players came together for Crystal Tower, the premade group's vote kicking rights will be halved making it only 3/8, giving the last vote to the outsider that actually knows what's going on.

I'm sure there are better ways to tackle the abuse of vote kicking, during loot rolls or just within the dungeon. The above is just an idea.

Tell them you passed next time. =p Report them for abusing the function.

Yesterday we were 3 casters out of 4 dps (they seemed to be friends since speaking only French).

We are at Atomos boss, one of them uses LB on ATomos, I get kicked out lol.

What I suspect is that someone pushed LB on purpose and soon after proposed me to be kicked, so that other player would assume it was me wasting LB there and accept to kick.

My warning: be RESPONSIBLE and DO NOT be a SHEEP following what others do... I have been in a number of parties where someone was purposed for kicking but I REFUSED since, even if bad players, they were not doing anything against the rules.


Remember: if ONE person refuses to kick, the player won't be kicked. Power to counter misuses of kick features is in our hands =)


Btw, I reported them but did not have names and such, so not sure anything will be done to them, unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Guevara

Yesterday we were 3 casters out of 4 dps (they seemed to be friends since speaking only French).

We are at Atomos boss, one of them uses LB on ATomos, I get kicked out lol.

What I suspect is that someone pushed LB on purpose and soon after proposed me to be kicked, so that other player would assume it was me wasting LB there and accept to kick.

My warning: be RESPONSIBLE and DO NOT be a SHEEP following what others do... I have been in a number of parties where someone was purposed for kicking but I REFUSED since, even if bad players, they were not doing anything against the rules.


Remember: if ONE person refuses to kick, the player won't be kicked. Power to counter misuses of kick features is in our hands =)


Btw, I reported them but did not have names and such, so not sure anything will be done to them, unfortunately.

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It takes a majority vote to kick people, not a unanimous. At least that's what I have seen.

[QUOTE=Guevara;1786307]

Remember: if ONE person refuses to kick, the player won't be kicked. Power to counter misuses of kick features is in our hands =)
QUOTE]

that is not true, even if you refuse the majority wins. I refuse systematically to kick people out of a group, because I find that silly at best and very dumb, yet even if I vote *NO* the guys were anyway kicked. So no sorry to say but the kick happens if majority says so, at least that is my understanding.

It is wrong, it is VERY wrong, that feature should be removed, should really be removed.

Mei

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

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Originally Posted by Guevara

Remember: if ONE person refuses to kick, the player won't be kicked. Power to counter misuses of kick features is in our hands =)

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that is not true, even if you refuse the majority wins. I refuse systematically to kick people out of a group, because I find that silly at best and very dumb, yet even if I vote *NO* the guys were anyway kicked. So no sorry to say but the kick happens if majority says so, at least that is my understanding.

It is wrong, it is VERY wrong, that feature should be removed, should really be removed.

Mei

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Then what do I do when I get players who decide to afk so they get a free win, or they are harrasing the party with insults because they can get away with it? I do not want to go back to pre-2.1 where we had to "deal with it"

didn't know it was majority, sorry for mistake ;_;

it indeed is hard to find an optimal solution for the issue, anyway. Of course if CT drops were not locked for 1 week it would be easier not to get strange/incorrect behaviour, but that is out of question I guess.

It's easy to fix: Just allow everybody in the alliance to vote on kicks, not just members of the individual party. It's much, much harder for any group to control votes and kicking and trolling of runs when the entire alliance they're screwing with has power to kick them, not just their premade group that they're abusing the system with.

I found something weird, it might be because it was a raid, but a vote kick popped up and before I could click yes or no it disappeared, and the guy was kicked. Do you not need everyone to vote in raids or something?
Felt kinda bad for the guy too I think it was his first run and was just trying to finish the story. :(

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Originally Posted by Guevara

didn't know it was majority, sorry for mistake ;_;

it indeed is hard to find an optimal solution for the issue, anyway. Of course if CT drops were not locked for 1 week it would be easier not to get strange/incorrect behaviour, but that is out of question I guess.

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It is not even a majority of the party, but of those voting. So it only takes 2/4 or 4/8. I think majority of party would make more sense.

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Originally Posted by dark494

It's easy to fix: Just allow everybody in the alliance to vote on kicks, not just members of the individual party. It's much, much harder for any group to control votes and kicking and trolling of runs when the entire alliance they're screwing with has power to kick them, not just their premade group that they're abusing the system with.

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I like this idea.

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Originally Posted by Kincard

It honestly baffles me how you people continuously come up with ideas like this without realizing how easy it is for trolls to exploit it the other way around.

Stop asking them to make it easier for single players to troll entire groups. There's no perfect solution but if you make griefing require you to have a group go along with it then it reduces the overall chance it happens.

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How does setting it up so the games Auto punish people for selecting AFK/DC as the kick reason, when the kicked person is neither(which can be easily verified), And then combining the kick and report feature for Harassment/Cheating, making it easier for people to Troll/Griefing?

Since Trolling/Griefing fall under Harassment, Anyone doing it should be kicked for that reason, not AFK/DC. And anybody Trolling/Griefing should be Reported also and not just kicked.

And I would doubt people are going to constantly file false/blank reports to abuse the kick feature like they do now. Since if they keep on doing it, it would be easy for them to be punished.

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Originally Posted by Zakalwe

It is not even a majority of the party, but of those voting. So it only takes 2/4 or 4/8. I think majority of party would make more sense.

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That is majority, Why should the person being kicked get a Vote?

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Originally Posted by Highlanderx

How does setting it up so the games Auto punish people for selecting AFK/DC as the kick reason, when the kicked person is neither(which can be easily verified), And then combining the kick and report feature for Harassment/Cheating, making it easier for people to Troll/Griefing?

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How did you think people were able to afk run dungeon despite there being an automatic afk kick? They came back every 5 minutes or whatever to jump. Your solution of "automatically punish them if they click no" is a horrible idea on the basis that it makes the afk choice completely useless. Nobody would ever use it because they know somebody who bothered to hop in the queue to afk something would be around to click a prompt asking if they are afk or not. You want to give afkers more power by allowing them to use the system to punish people trying to kick them? Might as well just remove the option altogether.

Put at least a little bit of thought into the situations it would create especially considering how these sort of situations already come up.

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Originally Posted by Kincard

How did you think people were able to afk run dungeon despite there being an automatic afk kick? They came back every 5 minutes or whatever to jump. Your solution of "automatically punish them if they click no" is a horrible idea on the basis that it makes the afk choice completely useless.

Put at least a little bit of thought into the situations it would create especially considering how these sort of situations already come up.

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I did think about that, That is why I said have it on a 10 or 15 second Timer. Figured if someone going AFK to leech, they are doing something else not just staring at the screen, Though didn't about PC user probably could have the window reduced really small and put into a corner, so they could watch it. So Reduce it to 5 seconds or even 3, I think that short enough that even people watching it are likely to miss it.

Also forgot to mention, that the auto punishments should be on a demerit system. And only if the kicker collect so many demerits in a certain about of time should they actually be punished. Say 5 over 2 weeks. I don't run into people that need to be kicked for AFK/DC that often so that should be enough. Mostly people need to be kicked for Harassment, in my experience. Though I mainly play on what was supposed to be my alt and its on a lower population server. Higher population servers probably need more leeway.