Summoner got destroyed this patch

They're not, read the news.

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Originally Posted by Seobit

They're not, read the news.

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I can't seem to find it, is it in english, german, french or japanese ? Or do you have a link ! But I hope you're wrong (and I understand your point of view about the boots, but still I hope you're wrong.)

I mean they're not changing the boots from their stats in 2.0. I only realized after you probably thought I meant they're not REchanging them. I meant they're not changing from being acc+crit.

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Originally Posted by Seobit

I mean they're not changing the boots from their stats in 2.0. I only realized after you probably thought I meant they're not REchanging them. I meant they're not changing from being acc+crit.

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Oh yeah ok. Well, that is my bad then ! Thanks <3

Out of context : nice haircut :p

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Originally Posted by Shamirah

Except they are, 'cause they are not that dumb.

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Well, yes and no lol.
They are changing them for 2.1, but they said they made an error (post in JP only) and are changing them back in 2.15.

According to YoshiP SMN are still top DPS even with the removal of Thunder. They decided it was better to remove an additional skill rather than nerf Summoner DOTs.

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Originally Posted by Seobit

According to YoshiP SMN are still top DPS even with the removal of Thunder. They decided it was better to remove an additional skill rather than nerf Summoner DOTs.

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Where did he say that ? Any source ^^' ?

@OmegaNovaios : yeah, but still.. 2,15 means it will be some day after the patch.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...g_patch_notes/

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Originally Posted by Seobit

According to YoshiP SMN are still top DPS even with the removal of Thunder. They decided it was better to remove an additional skill rather than nerf Summoner DOTs.

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What bothers me about this statement is that we can't even see DoT damage in the battle log to accurately confirm or refute this claim.

We don't. SE most definitely do. And I'm personally much more inclined to believing the devs who actually know how the game calculates damage and have ways to monitor these things than the masses fumbling around and running dysfunctional parsers.

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Originally Posted by Seobit

We don't. SE most definitely do. And I'm personally much more inclined to believing the devs who actually know how the game calculates damage and have ways to monitor these things than the masses fumbling around and running dysfunctional parsers.

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I'm not saying they're wrong, but I find it unsettling to have no way of seeing it for myself. (i.e. DoTs are invisible in the battle log)

Let's not forget Yoshi-P's original claim that Warriors were perfectly fine, and that everyone was simply using them incorrectly. But lo and behold, they're getting heavily boosted because they weren't up to snuff.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

I'm not saying they're wrong, but I find it unsettling to have no way of seeing it for myself. (i.e. DoTs are invisible in the battle log)

Let's not forget Yoshi-P's original claim that Warriors were perfectly fine, and that everyone was simply using them incorrectly. But lo and behold, they're getting heavily boosted because they weren't up to snuff.

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Well, I always thought Warrior were good. They didn't have the powerful CDs that Paladin have but they had much better dps and aoe tanking ability.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

I'm not saying they're wrong, but I find it unsettling to have no way of seeing it for myself. (i.e. DoTs are invisible in the battle log)

Let's not forget Yoshi-P's original claim that Warriors were perfectly fine, and that everyone was simply using them incorrectly. But lo and behold, they're getting heavily boosted because they weren't up to snuff.

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Warriors were perfectly fine, but the paladin toolset allowed them to deal with boss mechanics in ways the devs hadn't anticipated and instead of nerfing paladins they decided to give warriors more tools. That's not really the place to discuss this though.

It is unfortunate we can't see for ourselves the actual numbers, but considering that parsers had a tendency to underevaluate the damage of summoners by a fairly large margin, I'm not surprised to hear summoners were and are still considered top dps.

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Originally Posted by Seobit

According to YoshiP SMN are still top DPS even with the removal of Thunder. They decided it was better to remove an additional skill rather than nerf Summoner DOTs.

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This bothers me a lot. I would rather just have our numbers toned down instead of dumbing down the job as a whole. Instead of managing more dots, we now get to spam more ruin? Or spam Blizz II in aoe? I like managing dots, that's why I play SMN.

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Originally Posted by Zorzi

This bothers me a lot. I would rather just have our numbers toned down instead of dumbing down the job as a whole. Instead of managing more dots, we now get to spam more ruin? Or spam Blizz II in aoe? I like managing dots, that's why I play SMN.

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This.

I've said it multiple times, but we could have used our numbers adjusted down.

Dumbing down the class is not how you should do it, though. I'd much rather have some of the potencies lowered, because the THM class is just as much a part of SMN as SMN is--After all, SMN is just an add-on to ACN.

Losing one dot when I already have 4 or 5 others really won't reduce the fun factor in any way for me. Maybe I'm weird.

I'm glad we have Blizzard II over Thunder. It will boost our AOE burst on 2+ mobs and improve our AOE DPS on 5+ mobs. IMO that's better than keeping the same setup but equivalent in DMG loss to gaining a more useful tool to cover our weaknesses at the same time.

Reached my daily post limit so this is my last.

It's better to get nerferd and get something in return than to get a straight global DMG nerf. Taking Thunder away is about -6% DPS. Reducing all DMG by -6% has the same effect. Getting Blizzard II in return to help alleviate our weakness is better that nothing.

Now that the boots issue has been fixed, this is my major gripe with the patch. I've always held that SMN has been top DPS by a fairly good margin. This could be proven out to a good extent with parser data combined with verifiable HP checks combined with theorycrafted damage math. I knew that when we lost Thunder, and did the calculations on how much that would impact our DPS, I wasn't worried about not being the top dog anymore. (at least on T5)

But, they took a skill away from us that we used very frequently, and replaced it with a skill we would only use as a filler in a small amount of situations. They made the class easier to play the vast majority of the time. They gave us a minor AoE damage upgrade. I too, like SMN mainly because of all the stuff there is to do. The big caps in potential play skill, and the reward that comes with it. All they did was dumb down the SMN. You no longer have to consider whether it is worthwhile to multi-DoT with Thunder. You have an even easier time of managing mana, if you even have to bother at all now. You have 1 less thing to keep track of. And in trade? We get a skill that you might spam 2-3 times against a group of 10 mobs. B2 will see some use in WPSR and similar grindy content, it'll see a _little_ use in T4, but otherwise will go un-used. Thunder got used a whole lot, and it is a shame that SMN was dumbed down a little to 'fix' the DPS.

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Originally Posted by OmegaNovaios

I'm glad we have Blizzard II over Thunder. It will boost our AOE burst on 2+ mobs and improve our AOE DPS on 5+ mobs. IMO that's better than keeping the same setup but equivalent in DMG loss to gaining a more useful tool to cover our weaknesses at the same time.

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Blizzard II is barely an increase over Tri-Disaster. It's 20 potency more/cast.

It's not something to be happy gaining over Thunder, at all, especially because there is no real functional use of AoEing 5+ mobs besides 2 phases in T4. Everywhere else, Thunder was superior. Both for AoE, and ST, and it rewarded skillfull play.

Why do you think there's a lot of people in these topics that have popped up saying SMN is bad? Both people who play SMN, and bystanders.

It's because there's an exceptional few who knew what they were doing, and they knew how strong they were. Did you know standing in melee and auto attacking will give you ~5-7 more DPS? I always stand in melee, always.

How many other summoners can you say do that?

Long story short on the 2.1 SMN changes: Dumbed down the class by taking away an integral piece of our DoT rotation, added in a mostly useless AoE filler skill. SMN deserved an ST nerf, there were just better ways to accomplish it, and Yoshi apparently wanted a way that didn't involve changing core ACN skills, which left Thunder. Life will go on.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

Now that the boots issue has been fixed, this is my major gripe with the patch. I've always held that SMN has been top DPS by a fairly good margin. This could be proven out to a good extent with parser data combined with verifiable HP checks combined with theorycrafted damage math. I knew that when we lost Thunder, and did the calculations on how much that would impact our DPS, I wasn't worried about not being the top dog anymore. (at least on T5)

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http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...m/3e955cb922d/

????????

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Originally Posted by Kevee

It's because there's an exceptional few who knew what they were doing, and they knew how strong they were. Did you know standing in melee and auto attacking will give you ~5-7 more DPS? I always stand in melee, always.

How many other summoners can you say do that?

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Does casting not interrupt auto-attacks making auto-attacks almost never go off?
If not, that'd be very useful information. I'll test it myself when servers are back as well (on my BLM).

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Originally Posted by Exstal

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...m/3e955cb922d/

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http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...es_of_healing/
http://jp.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...a82f8b92ca6f12

They are reverting Allagan boots back to their original stats in about a week with a hotfix.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Does casting not interrupt auto-attacks making auto-attacks almost never go off?

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It doesn't reset the timer, only stop it. So every ~5 casts, more often with instant casts, you'll have an auto attack. My AA hits for 60-70, ~110 crits.

Also due to the server lag/netcode, auto attacks start queuing around 3/4ths of cast completion, and can also go off at that time.





Just for giggles, I did this awhile ago:

http://i.imgur.com/3EOJgbB.png

Our auto attack is 22 DPS if all we did is auto attack/cast instant spells.

I've hit my daily posting limit. Damn. :(

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Originally Posted by Kevee

It doesn't reset the timer, only stop it. So every ~5 casts, more often with instant casts, you'll have an auto attack. My AA hits for 60-70, ~110 crits.

Also due to the server lag/netcode, auto attacks start queuing around 3/4ths of cast completion, and can also go off at that time.

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Plus there is something special about hitting a big dragon with a book.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Does casting not interrupt auto-attacks making auto-attacks almost never go off?
If not, that'd be very useful information. I'll test it myself when servers are back as well (on my BLM).

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Seriously if you don't believe Kevee.....

My blm auto attack - 73

My smn auto attack - 182

Check the str in the menu. Blm str is low while smn str is high.

Smn is a beast at smacking things with a book.

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Originally Posted by Zer0mr

Seriously if you don't believe Kevee.....

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It's because I believe him that I inquired about it? The testing statement has no relevance to trust.
Thanks for the str info. BLM will also suffer cause it has less instant casts (none in the standard rotation, in fact) as well as less mobility overall when in melee (or anywhere else).

I can definitely see how this works for SMNs now.

I agree with Kevee. SMN needed a nerf. I was late to getting into raiding so am under geared compared to my fellow raiders, yet consistently am top on DPS. SMN was not an easy class to play. That is what appealed to me. Now they have dumbed down the class. I am definatly not saying our DPS will no longer be viable for end game. It completely will. May not be the top anymore against people who out gear you, but you are still going to compete just fine.
I think it is a poor design to have the dot class have less dots then a healer (SCH has Bio Bio2 Miasma Aero). Just like I think it is a poor design the way the pets are. I am a summoner I want to see my summons do some sh... well you get the idea. Honestly I would love to see Enkidle look better, and have a much lower cast time (lower the DPS to compensate). It would just be cool.
I will be switching classes, not because of the nerf, because of my raids needs (WHM). But this nerf, and dumbing down makes me a little less sad about it.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

Just for giggles, I did this awhile ago:

http://i.imgur.com/3EOJgbB.png

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I'm OCD.... your desktop hurts my soul..... clean that up man...

at least they did 1 good thing in this patch...our new iL 90 book has shitload accuracy in it :P (well spell speed too..seems like they really like the stat)

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Originally Posted by Z0dd

at least they did 1 good thing in this patch...our new iL 90 book has shitload accuracy in it :P (well spell speed too..seems like they really like the stat)

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The new accesories are nice as well.
Z0dd... i used to know someone from Vindictus named that.

it's not me :)

About spell speed... am I the only one that sees an increase value of the stat ? I mean... since we have to cast more ruin 'cause of the removal of Thunder... more spell speed can't hurt us ?

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Originally Posted by Shamirah

About spell speed... am I the only one that sees an increase value of the stat ? I mean... since we have to cast more ruin 'cause of the removal of Thunder... more spell speed can't hurt us ?

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You need so much of it to see a difference in summoners. That is why I see it as useless because I can focus on other skills that can have a greater impact to results.

Yoshi has already said Summoner was top dps before the nerf and is still top dps after the nerf. They did this to avoid nerfing the actual summoner DoTs.

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Originally Posted by RaideDuku

So, out of curiosity, http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acci...6ba7f3e378.png

So, yeah. So much for SPAM RUIN MOAR. and the amount of damage loss is staggering.

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^^

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Summoner got destroyed this patch

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All I can say, is GOOD. We all saw this coming but for those too arrogant to know what is going on. While certainly skills do play a role, the reality is that many smn were doing so well because they had the WIND in their backs. The game mechanics favored risk free range dps and if you were not completely incompetent, you would be riding the train all the way to the bank. While other classes had to work hard and still had the wind in their faces.

We all know this is true. No point in denying this. If you realize that the game mechanics were skewed towards you, then you also understand why they lowered your dps.

Well, stop acting like playing monk was 1000000000% harder. It was not. But we never said we didn't need a nerf, what we're complaining about is the removal of a spell 'causing our gameplay to be less fun. They could've just nerfed some number without removing anything.

Whatever.

@paradigmfellow well... with Selene's buff, the trait buff I sometimes had a GCD of 2,1 sec ... that is quite nice. But I guess you're right.

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Originally Posted by Truedragon

^^
/snip

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This might be one of the most idiotic things I've read on the forums for a while. SMN isn't BRD. Bard is easy to play. You have to be REALLY dumb to be a bad Bard. Summoners, however actually requires skill and competency. There are A LOT of bad SMNs out there. I would say more than 60% of SMNs are trash. Just go DF and see how many of them use Ifrit post 45 as opposed to Garuda. A good SMN will be top or close to top DPS, a regular one, meh. A bad one? Bottom DPS. You? You are probably the ruin spammer SMN going by that asinine comment.

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Originally Posted by Karnage720

This might be one of the most idiotic things I've read on the forums for a while. SMN isn't BRD. Bard is easy to play. You have to be REALLY dumb to be a bad Bard. Summoners, however actually requires skill and competency.

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In denial much? Oh those bitter tears taste so sweet.

Quite obvious that you are in denial much. This isnt about difficulty to play. This is about ranged dps being completely risk free. Like you hardly ever get attacked. You hardly ever have to run for AoE. You hardly ever have to stop attacking. You_dont_have_risks_like_melees_do.

So what if you are more difficult to play than Brds? That higher difficulty already translated itself into higher dps unless you think Brds outdps Smns. You were already being rewarded and still will be higher than Brd dps. But do keep those bitter tears coming.

And at least stop calling me names, will you. Try to keep it civilized.

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Originally Posted by Truedragon

^^
All I can say, is GOOD. We all saw this coming but for those too arrogant to know what is going on. While certainly skills do play a role, the reality is that many smn were doing so well because they had the WIND in their backs. The game mechanics favored risk free range dps and if you were not completely incompetent, you would be riding the train all the way to the bank. While other classes had to work hard and still had the wind in their faces.

We all know this is true. No point in denying this. If you realize that the game mechanics were skewed towards you, then you also understand why they lowered your dps.

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Didn't require debuffing summoners, required buffing melees or as we talked about in other threads, changing boss mechanics to affect ranged as well. Btw, we are still preferred thanks to lack of change in Boss Mechanics. Melee tears for days. Don't know what happened in the last couple of hours, but get it together and shut it down.