The Black Mage Rotations

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Originally Posted by Borfin

What you're saying is "During a burst phase, crit has a larger impact". While this is true and may make sense for certain encounters where Flare burst is key to eliminating threats to the party, it is not the same as "Crit provides a greater effect because these spells hit harder".

Always remember what you sacrifice to buff that burst phase.

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hmm, still not sure i agree with this. even during a burst phase, a 40% increased chance to do 50% more damage vs 20% more damage would net the same result. While it would be amazing if the increased crit chance lead to every flare critting, it would be horrible if it lead to every blizzard critting and no flares critting vs flare simply just doing 20% more damage. All and all, on average, the total damage done (if you were to do this same burst phase 1000000 times) would be the exact same between these 2 situations.

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Originally Posted by xyaie

hmm, still not sure i agree with this. even during a burst phase, a 40% increased chance to do 50% more damage vs 20% more damage would net the same result. While it would be amazing if the increased crit chance lead to every flare critting, it would be horrible if it lead to every blizzard critting and no flares critting vs flare simply just doing 20% more damage. All and all, on average, the total damage done (if you were to do this same burst phase 1000000 times) would be the exact same between these 2 situations.

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And in the real world, 20% increased damage would be the better choice almost always, because then you *know* when things are going to die, rather than leaving it to RNG.

@PessimiStick

So just F3 > Swiftcast > Flare > Transpose > B2 > B2 then repeat?

For AoE rotation? You wouldn't DoT all the adds with Thunder 2 first , then a quick B3 to get your MP back before jumping into this? Are you even getting a tick of MP to do a B2 after Flare? I know I've accidentatlly mis timed a swiftcast flare and sat at 0MP for easily 10 seconds before I could cast a B2 (Unless I potion or Convert but I tend to use those only for the "oh shit I fucked up" moments )

that rotation is crap, use:
Blizzard III -> Fire III -> Flare -> Transpose then repeat.

This rotation will give you fast cast buff on the Flare during to Blizzard III and dmg buff through Fire III. (Flare casts in 2seconds)

Double Flare with Cooldowns:
Raging Strikes -> Blizzard III -> Fire III -> Flare -> Convert (or elixir) -> Swiftcast -> Flare -> Tranpose.
(you want to use Raging Strikes so quickly because you have no time to use it after Blizzard III or Fire III without losing the right buff order)

With both rotations you want to spam the keys as quick as possible.
Greetz Dips

Sorry Dips, i thought myself doing the rotation you mention to be better but nope wrong. I tried the fire 3, flare, transpose , ice 2 ice 2, repeat combo and its by far superior. Ill explain.
One blizzard 3 hits 1 target, if i crit it may do prob about 600 dmg tops. In turn 4 the 1st and 4th group have 6 mobs or more, wp speed runs have atleast 10 mobs grouped up or more. thus this is where ice 2 shines, because 1 it hits em all thus waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more dmg than a single target ice3, for wp it binds targets giving the tank and healer breathing room even if its a second or 2. Due to the extra dmg to all mobs and with flare its better. Even more so when topped with foes.

But wait there is more. Ice 2 you do not need to target anything. If your target happens to die while trying to cast ice 3 guess what you need to hardcast again and thats over 3 seconds each time, thats not including the time you need to wait for a mana tic from transpose to even cast ice 3 which affects both rotations as in why i didnt include it. Because ice 2 can be used without a target, if your primary target goes down you automaticly have another target to keep going.

We have tried bard with mana song up at all times during mobs in wp to do fire 3, flare, then ice 3 since each mana song tic gives back enough mana to skip transpose. It great but Fire3, flare, convert, ice 2 , ice 2 outpreforms it with foes up , archer doing 100% dmg, me doing 110% dmg and killing groups quicker than me doing 100% dmg and bard doing 80%. Becuase of ice 2 our whm can sneak in a holy or 2 better than before thus mob groups just die much faster.

well, i tested it too now, you are right its really the better rotation with ice II

http://www7.pic-upload.de/05.11.13/t2yofkq183g.png >.<

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Originally Posted by Dips

well, i tested it too now, you are right its really the better rotation with ice II

>.<

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Oh there are some risks involved since you do have to get in the middle of things to maximize its potential, however not having to even deal with targetting other mobs in fear your ice 3 will be interrupted due to a dead target makes things much easier. I also had my doubts on it, but after seeing how darn easy coils turn 4 was because of it and just how much time we bought due to it I gotta say im impressed this was not discovered sooner.

Before was fire 3, fire 2 fire 2 bleh then flare, ice 3, fire 3 fire 2... gawd that so bad right now just remembering XD. Prob the only issue, is having a tank that can deal with the aggro you pull out. If you are ever with a tank who cannot other methods have their chances to be used.

Thanks for the aoe rotation I've been looking for something new. Now, I want to know if anyone else runs into the issues where casting f3 seems to lag and you are stuck in the casting motion longer then you are suppose to be, which causes you to miss the ui3 speed buff flare. Is this happening to anyone else, is there anyway to stop this from happening ? Also at times it seems like my transpose doesn't swap af3 with ui. Every now and then I've use transpose and I still have af3 stack ticking away.

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Originally Posted by PsychologyPhD

Thanks for the aoe rotation

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I have had rare issues with me tossing out flare, transpose n it seems the transpose didnt go through leaving me hanging there. Also i have had something similar to what you have expereinced, after i cast the 2nd ice 2, i wait a lil bit to make sure i get the fast cast fire 3, it fires off then my flare will either take its time, not fire at all, or i get a long cast bar and it fires half way through completely taking me off guard. XD This does not happen to me all the time but it does occasionally happen where it botches my rotation.

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Originally Posted by PsychologyPhD

Thanks for the aoe rotation I've been looking for something new. Now, I want to know if anyone else runs into the issues where casting f3 seems to lag and you are stuck in the casting motion longer then you are suppose to be, which causes you to miss the ui3 speed buff flare. Is this happening to anyone else, is there anyway to stop this from happening ? Also at times it seems like my transpose doesn't swap af3 with ui. Every now and then I've use transpose and I still have af3 stack ticking away.

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F3 bug seems to be latency related to me, but I haven't been able to recreate it on purpose. It's very rare for me. Maybe once in 8-10 WP speedruns. The Transpose issue I think you can avoid by not spamming it. I've only had that happen once or twice ever, and it was when I was mashing Transpose. I think what happens is you mash it, Transpose goes off, then the Flare applies damage and resets you to AF3. And then you're boned.

The moment I have had that happen to me a few times i made sure not to spam transpose but wait for flare to go off to then use it. I would agree that the f3 problem is latency related as it does not occur often, kinda the same as my flare showing up as being slow casted only to go off way before the cast bar is done.

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Originally Posted by Shadowzanon

I have had rare issues with me tossing out flare, transpose n it seems the transpose didnt go through leaving me hanging there. Also i have had something similar to what you have expereinced, after i cast the 2nd ice 2, i wait a lil bit to make sure i get the fast cast fire 3, it fires off then my flare will either take its time, not fire at all, or i get a long cast bar and it fires half way through completely taking me off guard. XD This does not happen to me all the time but it does occasionally happen where it botches my rotation.

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Originally Posted by PessimiStick

F3 bug seems to be latency related to me, but I haven't been able to recreate it on purpose. It's very rare for me. Maybe once in 8-10 WP speedruns. The Transpose issue I think you can avoid by not spamming it. I've only had that happen once or twice ever, and it was when I was mashing Transpose. I think what happens is you mash it, Transpose goes off, then the Flare applies damage and resets you to AF3. And then you're boned.

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Originally Posted by Shadowzanon

The moment I have had that happen to me a few times i made sure not to spam transpose but wait for flare to go off to then use it. I would agree that the f3 problem is latency related as it does not occur often, kinda the same as my flare showing up as being slow casted only to go off way before the cast bar is done.

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Ah okay, so it seems my underline problem is me spamming my abilities way too much. I notice this when my f3 casts at normal speed when I spam it while my final b2 is still casting for ui3 stack. I'll slow down my button mashing to see if that improves my results any. I would like to thank the both of you for your input! :)

The servers just cannot take black mages awesomeness. It tends to faint.

Ever since Sundays update I've noticed on my F3 to F1..if I cast at the wrong time the cast bar stops mid ways and resets and then I get a slow cast for Fire1. Anyone notice that? I have to specifically not hit my hotbar too early or too late now.

Edit: This is for taking advantage of the fast cast for UI to AF...

I just got my BLM to 50 and i'd like some feedback on my rotation, what i should change and what i should keep the same.
Currently i'm using
I start with Swiftcast> F3> F1 until around 300-500MP> B3> T3> F3 and repeat. I'm not sure when i should incorporate Flare into my rotation so any insight on that would be awesome.
I'd like suggestions with reasons why, not simply what you use.

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Originally Posted by Psychosamm

I just got my BLM to 50 and i'd like some feedback on my rotation, what i should change and what i should keep the same.
Currently i'm using
I start with Swiftcast> F3> F1 until around 300-500MP> B3> T3> F3 and repeat. I'm not sure when i should incorporate Flare into my rotation so any insight on that would be awesome.
I'd like suggestions with reasons why, not simply what you use.

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Hint: It's written in this thread, dont be lazy and read it.

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Originally Posted by Awake

Hint: It's written in this post, dont be lazy and read it.

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Hint: Don't be a jerk.
I have read through this thread and everyone seems to do different things, i want suggestions on my rotation, not a whole new one. Specifically i want to know the best way to incorporate Flare since it uses all your MP, because there has to be a better way than simply using transpose.

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Originally Posted by Psychosamm

Hint: Don't be a jerk.
I have read through this thread and everyone seems to do different things, i want suggestions on my rotation, not a whole new one. Specifically i want to know the best way to incorporate Flare since it uses all your MP, because there has to be a better way than simply using transpose.

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Flare is used rotationally for AoE. The OP's rotation is the best, and it's not terribly different from yours either.
To use Flare single target, you utilize Convert. Flare when you would at low mana (when you would otherwise use Blizzard III)-->Convert ---> Blizz III
I usually fit in a Fire I after convert, then Blizz III. Flare keeps you at Astral 3 as well, so your rotation should not be disrupted.

Outside of using Convert, it's not practical to use Flare for single target.

Thunder II is better than Thunder III, since it's cast time is shorter. The half second extra Thunder III takes is not worth the damage or extra duration, since you may have to overwrite it anyway if you don't get much procs during you fire phase. You can use Thunder III for Thundercloud procs. The tooltip is apparently not very accurate.

The OP's AoE rotation is quite amazing, honestly. You get a reduced flare cast time if you do it right after Fire III. This is where Flare really shines.

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Originally Posted by Psychosamm

I just got my BLM to 50 and i'd like some feedback on my rotation, what i should change and what i should keep the same.
Currently i'm using
I start with Swiftcast> F3> F1 until around 300-500MP> B3> T3> F3 and repeat. I'm not sure when i should incorporate Flare into my rotation so any insight on that would be awesome.
I'd like suggestions with reasons why, not simply what you use.

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I would advise to get into the habit of casting thunder 2 first then hardcast fire 3 save swiftcast. dishing out dmg to fast will pull aggro off tanks before they have a chance to even build any this will become more apparent as you get better gear. starting of slow usually ensures you wont rip aggro away, unless the stars align and you pull a few crits in a row. also if you just hit 50 work on getting quelling strikes, as it will help seal the deal on not pulling bosses away from the tank unless they really mess up and you happen to crit like no tommorow.

regarding the AoE rotation.

First off thanks to those who put in the work to identify this rotation. My question is...what is the minimum number of mobs needed for this rotation to be superior to single target damage. During speed runs and turn 4 your often facing 5-6+ mobs at a time from my understanding.

I main pld and have been messing around with blm for fun. I'm still trying to get the rotation mastered so I've been using DF for practice. Trash pulls in most DF runs only have 3 mobs, so in this instance would it be better to single target the mobs down or use the AoE rotation until one dies then single target the remaining two.

I'm sorry i this has been mentioned earlier. I've been slowly reading the entire thread over the past 2-3 days and I don't recall reading a specific number.

Thanks in advance for any answers to this question.

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Originally Posted by Doogsi

I'm sure we can all agree that you're the only one pissing here and making no points. Synovius introduced many of us to a new more powerful rotation. PessimiStick just backed his proposal with numbers. You come along and basically call them nubs and say your rotations are better even though we've already proved them inferior. Go back to your group and let them continue carrying you. We care not for your subjective advice. Have a nice day.

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...And Mecan was never heard from again. Seriously, he never returned to the thread after PessimiStick repeatedly called him out on his fluff posts and you posted this.

Well done *lights a cigar and kicks back in his chair*.

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Originally Posted by thegodthatwas

Why wouldn't you use Firestarter and Thundercloud prods as soon as they show up?

And why would you use Thunder II instead of III? When you open with B3 it's free...?

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Firestarter doesn't proc until your Fire I has finished traveling to the target meaning that, to use Firestarter as soon as it's up, you'd have to wait after casting Fire I to see if you're going to get a proc and then use it. This results in a very clunky rotation and also a net loss overall in DPS.

As for Thundercloud procs, you are basically using them as soon as they come up. You're simply using them as soon as you are done with whatever cast you are in the middle of or immediately if you literally just finished a cast. The only caveat is that Firestarter procs take priority over Thundercloud procs if both happen to be up at the same time.

Using Thunder II over Thunder III comes down to timing. Thunder II has a shorter duration that fits nicely with one loop through the rotation such that when you cast Blizzard III to start off a new loop through the rotation Thunder II should have just or will soon fall off of your target (this is obviously dependent on RNG with Firestarter procs throughout the rotation). More importantly, Thunder II's 0.5s less cast time over Thunder III allows you to follow your Blizzard III with Thunder II and have enough time to cast the subsequent Fire III for free as you'll get a tick of mana exactly at that moment from Umbral Ice III. In fact, I'd call this the primary reason to use Thunder II over III. Do note, however, you should always use Thunder III with Thundercloud procs as it's instant and more damage.

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Originally Posted by Synovius

...And Mecan was never heard from again. Seriously, he never returned to the thread after PessimiStick repeatedly called him out on his fluff posts and you posted this.

Well done *lights a cigar and kicks back in his chair*.

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I'm pretty sure he got banned, since his posts are gone from the thread. As someone who has been "pruned" from official forums many times in the past, I'm pretty sure that's what happened.

Edit: I disagree with using FS in front of TC. You should always use Thundercloud first, since you can't control the procs. If you FS --> TC, you can lose a second proc of TC because you hadn't used it when Thunder ticked again. It's impossible to lose a FS proc by using TC first, since you're not casting Fire.

Oh snap! Say it ain't so!

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

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Hmm i hadn't thought of convert, thanks for the input! And i'll definitely try out T2 as opposed to T3.

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Originally Posted by Shadowzanon

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Thanks for the advice! I didn't really think about how that could take hate, i'll do what you suggested from now on. So instead of using swiftcast on F3 i would assume the next best thing to use it on would be Flare?

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Originally Posted by Synovius

The only caveat is that Firestarter procs take priority over Thundercloud procs if both happen to be up at the same time.

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Why would you do this? If you use thundercloud first you could potentially get another thundercloud immediately. Whereas you will not get another Firestarter proc until you go back to Fire I spam.

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Originally Posted by dragonflyseksparade

Why would you do this? If you use thundercloud first you could potentially get another thundercloud immediately. Whereas you will not get another Firestarter proc until you go back to Fire I spam.

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This does make a lot of sense and, honestly, I hadn't thought about it this way so kudos on bringing up a great point! My concern would be that Firestarter does more damage and if Thunder isn't about to fall off your target, then that means you'll get one more tick of Thunder (and thus the chance for a Thundercloud proc) anyway some time between casting Firestarter and up until you're ready to cast Thundercloud. I'm not 100% certain but I think, mathematically, it may be a wash in that sense. If somebody wants to churn some numbers, I'd love to see where the math leads on this.

Thanks, Dragonfly!

Lol PessimiStick.

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Originally Posted by Psychosamm

So instead of using swiftcast on F3 i would assume the next best thing to use it on would be Flare?

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Yes. There is a "best rotation" and it is "best practice" to know it as there are several dps checks in the game in later content. That is simply how the game was designed to be and there is no real way around it.

Some interesting questions do come up, such as the one that was just asked about when does the AoE rotation become more potent than single target. The rule of thumb I apply to this is if there are 3+ mobs I go AoE, 1 or 2, single target each with a Fire II if I have Swift+Flare+Convert cycle handy. Timing issues like that are important as well, but move towards standardizing themselves when you run with a set group doing the same instance running it in a similar timeframe (X will always be up when at Y part of the instance, etc.).

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Originally Posted by Synovius

My concern would be that Firestarter does more damage and if Thunder isn't about to fall off your target, then that means you'll get one more tick of Thunder (and thus the chance for a Thundercloud proc) anyway some time between casting Firestarter and up until you're ready to cast Thundercloud. I'm not 100% certain but I think, mathematically, it may be a wash in that sense.

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It doesn't matter which proc does more damage. The two scenarios are as follows:

Thunder III -> Fire III
or
Fire III -> Thunder III

In both cases you've done the same amount of damage over the course of two GCDs. But the first of those two scenarios give you a chance at another Thundercloud proc immediately. The second of the two could result in a missed thundercloud if it were to proc again as you cast Fire III.

It doesn't really matter how much time is left on your current thunder because thunder will never fall off of a single target in a normal rotation unless you get some amazing luck and had Firestarter proc on every single Fire I during the rotation.

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Originally Posted by dragonflyseksparade

It doesn't matter which proc does more damage. The two scenarios are as follows:

Thunder III -> Fire III
or
Fire III -> Thunder III

In both cases you've done the same amount of damage over the course of two GCDs. But the first of those two scenarios give you a chance at another Thundercloud proc immediately. The second of the two could result in a missed thundercloud if it were to proc again as you cast Fire III.

It doesn't really matter how much time is left on your current thunder because thunder will never fall off of a single target in a normal rotation unless you get some amazing luck and had Firestarter proc on every single Fire I during the rotation.

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This is quite true, I have had 4 Thundercloud procs one after the other in T4. This is only possible if you ignore Fire III procs when you have Thundercloud up. While Fire III is definitely more dmg it won't proc until your Fire I lands on target while Thundercloud is just pure luck ^^ (and some cleaver tactics to get a better chance).

I like when i get thunder procs in a row making me wonder if i failed to use it XD

Heres three flare rotations I found to be my top dps charts so far.
I also found mages ballad with a bard and bliz3 > fire3 > flare to be the best single target dps in my rotation. Unfortuantly for the bard they lose 20% damage so the 15%-50% blm damage increase in single target damage is only good with two blm or more. But I think this is why the bards mages ballad has the -20% damage decrease, because blm would be too OP if they dint have that. The blm can switch to this rotation for single target dps when ever bard uses ballad for healers, so it pulls up the slack created by the -20% dps of the bard also.

Flare Rotation 1 (With Mages Ballad) = 279.9 - 360.3 dps <<< Result
Blizard 3 > Fire 3 > Flare > Repeat
Cast times: 1.66 fire 3 + 1.90 flare + 1.66 bliz 3 = 5.22s + (occasional mana wait between bliz 3 and fire 3 is 0 - 1.5s )
full rotation total time = 5.22s (75% of the time) - 6.72s (25% of the time)
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Flare Rotation 2 (Without Ballad) = 190.1 dps <<<Result
Blizzard 3 > Fire 3 > Flare > Repeat
Cast times: 1.66s fire 3 + 1.90s flare > Transpose 3s downtime > 3.33s bliz 3
full rotation total time = 9.89s (100% of the time)
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Flare Rotation 3 (Without Ballad, Use Fire 2 three times before ending with a flare) = 225.6 dps <<< Result
Blizzard 3 > Fire 3 > Fire 2 > Fire 2 > Fire 2 > Flare > Repeat
Cast times: 1.66 bliz 3 + 1.66 fire 3 + 1.42 fire 2 + 2.85 fire 2 + 2.85 fire 2 + 3.80 flare
full rotation total time = 14.24s (100% of the time)
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Dps tables used
Flare = 1158
Bliz 3 = 354 (after astral fire III)
Fire 3 = 369 (after astral ice III)
Fire 2 = 444 (with astral fire III)

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Originally Posted by Farmer

Flare Rotation 1 (With Mages Ballad) = 279.9 - 360.3 dps <<< Result
Blizard 3 > Fire 3 > Flare > Repeat
Cast times: 1.66 fire 3 + 1.90 flare + 1.66 bliz 3 = 5.22s + (occasional mana wait between bliz 3 and fire 3 is 0 - 1.5s )
full rotation total time = 5.22s (75% of the time) - 6.72s (25% of the time)
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Flare Rotation 2 (Without Ballad) = 190.1 dps <<<Result
Blizzard 3 > Fire 3 > Flare > Repeat
Cast times: 1.66s fire 3 + 1.90s flare > Transpose 3s downtime > 3.33s bliz 3
full rotation total time = 9.89s (100% of the time)
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Flare Rotation 3 (Without Ballad, Use Fire 2 three times before ending with a flare) = 225.6 dps <<< Result
Blizzard 3 > Fire 3 > Fire 2 > Fire 2 > Fire 2 > Flare > Repeat
Cast times: 1.66 bliz 3 + 1.66 fire 3 + 1.42 fire 2 + 2.85 fire 2 + 2.85 fire 2 + 3.80 flare
full rotation total time = 14.24s (100% of the time)
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Dps tables used
Flare = 1158
Bliz 3 = 354 (after astral fire III)
Fire 3 = 369 (after astral ice III)
Fire 2 = 444 (with astral fire III)

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I'm guessing your flare rotation 3 is meant for aoe?

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Originally Posted by Farmer

Cast times: 1.66 fire 3 + 1.90 flare + 1.66 bliz 3 = 5.22s + (occasional mana wait between bliz 3 and fire 3 is 0 - 1.5s )
full rotation total time = 5.22s (75% of the time) - 6.72s (25% of the time)
--
Cast times: 1.66s fire 3 + 1.90s flare > Transpose 3s downtime > 3.33s bliz 3
full rotation total time = 9.89s (100% of the time)
--
Cast times: 1.66 bliz 3 + 1.66 fire 3 + 1.42 fire 2 + 2.85 fire 2 + 2.85 fire 2 + 3.80 flare
full rotation total time = 14.24s (100% of the time)

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You didn't take GCD into account. Even though your cast time is (for instance) 1.66s, you still have to wait until the GCD is up before casting your next spell. I'm guessing from your Flare time that your GCD is 2.38s.

This makes your theoretical DPS:
1. 217.7 - 263.4
2. 169.6
3. 193.1

That's assuming your mana tick wait times are correct. Also, you should probably add a bit of time between buffs, because if you spam too fast you run the risk of casting before the correct buff is up.

Those mana wait times are incorrect, because Ballad only ticks every 3 seconds. You have to wait an average of 1.5 seconds for the Ballad tick to afford B3, and then you have to wait for UI3 to tick (~0.5 seconds past the GCD assuming you started casting as soon as possible).

So on average, you spend 2 seconds waiting for mana in any given cycle, which would put the DPS at 208.5 DPS for those damage numbers, and only against a single target.

Generally speaking, all of the numbers in that post are wrong and/or not useful.

Thoroughly enjoyed this post, cant remember the last thread I read from front to back and didnt feel like it devolved into mindless "you're bad, no you're bad". Thanks for the good info! Cant wait til my BLM's 50! :)

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Originally Posted by dragonflyseksparade

Why would you do this? If you use thundercloud first you could potentially get another thundercloud immediately. Whereas you will not get another Firestarter proc until you go back to Fire I spam.

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Thundercloud's effective potency is 17 potency per tick. Every tick of Thunder (and you are not already under its effect), you are adding 17 potency to your rotation.*

Scenario 1: Thunder has three ticks remaining and Thundercloud is used, refreshing duration for 6 ticks.
Total Thunder duration: 6 ticks.
Total Thunder duration with Thundercloud proc down: 6 ticks.

Scenario 2: Thunder has three ticks remaining and Thundercloud is saved until Thunder expires.
Total Thunder duration: 9 ticks.
Total Thunder duration with Thundercloud proc down: 6 ticks.

Immediately casting Thundercloud decreases the effectiveness of the initial Thunder cast. The only reason I can see for immediately using up this proc is if your rotation would be interrupted negatively by saving it until Thunder expires.

*5% of 340 is 17. There's a 5% chance that every tick is a bonus 340 potency and full 18s duration Thunder.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

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I would agree with that if Thunder didn't always seem to proc one right after the other. I've had procs for another one while in the process instantly casting a Thunder III proc.
The odds of that should be astronomical, but it happens quite a bit.
Or I should say, I don't get thundercloud procs much but when I do it almost always chains.

The people earlier were saying they had the same experience, so I'm not going to trust the probability in this case.