its not about whether SMN has Resurrection or not

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Originally Posted by Lyth

They should also stop enforcing double healer. That way you can have two slots to run damage tanks like DRK/GNB, and one extra slot to run a healer tank like PLD/WAR.

Actually, maybe that's another way you can get a second caster. Just replace a healer with a support caster.

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Your weird defence of melees at the expense of every other role doesn’t even have a foundation in this case because this double melee meta is entirely borne of balance decisions in EW, it’s not something set in stone like the full party comp. Double melee would still be stronger because feint now affects all damage and melee have more health than casters

There is no justification to force a 2/1/1 comp and that’s entire different to tanks encroaching on the healer role (which I know you don’t actually support you just like to poke “equivalences” about “oh well if you suggest any change that negatively affects melees I’ll strawman an equivalent change to healers”)

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

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I thought this was a thread about raises. I know you're eagerly looking for engagement (and who can blame you, there's none for healers in-game), but I'm just providing some insights into the problem around raises and how it impacts raid design. The tangent is completely unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I thought this was a thread about raises. I know you're eagerly looking for engagement (and who can blame you, there's none for healers in-game), but I'm just providing some insights into the problem around raises and how it impacts raid design. The tangent is completely unnecessary.

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You were the one who stepped in and strawmanned me being a healer main because I dared to suggest to that the DPS shouldn’t be locked to 2/1/1 as a solution to the rezz problem maybe take your own advice and keep to the topic of rezz and caster balance because changing the enforced DPS comp is one valid solution to fixing this balance problem

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Originally Posted by Lyth

They should also stop enforcing double healer. That way you can have two slots to run damage tanks like DRK/GNB, and one extra slot to run a healer tank like PLD/WAR.

Actually, maybe that's another way you can get a second caster. Just replace a healer with a support caster.

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I’d love to see your justification for how this comment has anything to do with caster raise and isn’t just an attempt to get a rise out of me because you don’t like me

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

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Yeah, I have no idea what any of this has to do with the raise discussion.

Back on topic, I think there's nothing wrong with letting jobs retain raise to fit in with their historical aesthetic. I do think that there needs to be some content-specific regulation on how often you raise. In normal mode content or 24p content, I think it's fine to keep things the way they are. In raid content, I think they should place a raid-wide cap on the number of times that raises can occur (i.e. 2-3 raises per party per pull). That will then lend more fights to be designed around attrition, rather than being always all-or-nothing checks.

If that approach is taken, the broader issue around picking a job 'just for raise' can be mitigated by making raise more ubiquitous. Either you have more jobs across other roles that can provide raises, or you introduce a slightly less efficient raise action (i.e. Phoenix Down as a general action). I don't expect any of this to happen now, but I could see them looking at things like this for 8.x onwards.

(Note Lyth I’m not replying to you I’m putting my thoughts in general out there)

I think that raise in its current form is okay but is hampered by only bringing one caster so you have to chose damage or prog (assuming PIC has about BLM levels of damage)

One way I could see to potentially mitigating this (because I think raise is a valid part of identity that especially the casual audience wouldn’t like to lose) is a removal of the hard and fast limits on the DPS party comp with a return of mechanics that favour one side over the other so you can be free to bring what you want depending on your prog point and what the fight demands

Looking at say O11 there was that mechanic that was designed to be handled by the mobility of the physical ranged (let’s ignore it was actually handled by a PLD standing in the corner using hallowed ground). I believe that raid design should play into this style of mechanic so that you don’t bring a physical ranged just because of the 1%, you bring a physical ranged because the gain from being able to do mechanics like that with no damage loss is more than the damage lost bringing all the top damage jobs but losing damage to solve these mechanics

How this plays into raise is the idea that raise should be a valid consideration for what you want one of your DPS dealers to do if you want access to that raise. However that should be a consideration for one open spot in 4, not a consideration for the only open caster spot. PIC seems to roughly equivalent mobility to BLM (maybe a little more mobile) so if you believe you don’t need a raise and can handle two immobile jobs alongside your comp that should be your consideration, as should bringing a rezzer for safety and the greater mobility that especially SMN offers

Caster raise is currently unbalanced because casters only have an enforced single slot in the 4 DPS, that should be changed to allow freedom for the raisers and the damage casters to co-exist in the same party based on necessity of prog and mechanical design

You're going to have this same problem regardless of what you do in terms of composition. You will always bring at least one Raise capable DPS job for initial progression, simply because it's always more valuable to see more mechanics when you're first learning. That's a guaranteed slot to be shared by only two jobs. We'd probably actually see a SMN + RDM progression setup as standard if there was a mandatory second Caster slot, with both casters swapping out for BLM + PIC after hitting enrage.

You ultimately still have to fix an underlying issue around how raise impacts progression and fight design, if you want to resolve this. You can't fix it by changing composition.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

You're going to have this same problem regardless of what you do in terms of composition. You will always bring at least one Raise capable DPS job for initial progression, simply because it's always more valuable to see more mechanics when you're first learning. That's a guaranteed slot to be shared by only two jobs. We'd probably actually see a SMN + RDM progression setup as standard if there was a mandatory second Caster slot, with both casters swapping out for BLM + PIC after hitting enrage.

You ultimately still have to fix an underlying issue around how raise impacts progression and fight design, if you want to resolve this. You can't fix it by changing composition.

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Well 1 nobody mentioned a second mandatory caster slot just that the DPS shouldn’t have defined slots and that raid design should favour different jobs across different fights

Hell you could make a fight where every mechanic is like ifrit nail awakening and soft encourage double physical ranged

There should be fights that chain rezzing actively benefits you and fights that put hard blocks on chain rezzing (you could even give out debuffs that wiped you if you died eliminating rezz temporarily entirely or have internal fight DPS checks that benefit the melee)

You should want to bring different comps to different fights and that includes sometimes wanting rezz over damage and sometimes not

I guess what I'm looking for is how this all relates back to the Raise issue.

Raise influences party composition in raid content. However, changing party composition does not resolve the issue. If you have the option of access to more Raises, you'll take the extra Raise Jobs in just to see more of the fight. If the enrage is tight, then you'll just swap them out for damage casters. The only difference that two caster slots would achieve is that your mandatory SMN and RDM would each be forced to play and swap out to BLM and PIC (and agree in advance on how that would be divided up). As it stands, you just need to know one of SMN/RDM and BLM/PIC, with the choice being yours of which two you want to learn.

If you want to give players choice around what jobs they bring, then there need to be limits placed on Raise uses per fight. You also need to make Raise ubiquitous, such that you don't have to bring a specific job to access it. Again, I don't think we'll see any solutions this expansion, but I think the long term move will be to have a general 'Phoenix Down' action with a recast/use limit that removes the need for a 'Raise Job' slot.

Because I’m not suggesting sub 2/1/1 out for 1/2/1 I’m suggesting that fight design should be expanded and changed to encourage different classes in different fights

Let’s use some examples

In a standard low body check fight rezz is very useful, especially RDM’s chain rezz, in a standard low body check fight you’d likely want to bring 2 “prog casters” these fights could be tuned with damage checks low enough that you don’t feel obligated to swap to BLM/PIC. They could also be melee hostile to discourage high melee comps

You could make fights that turn off rezzing at large portions of the fight (say the boss does a raidwide that leaves a 40 second debuff that cancels rezz) for fights like this you would want to likely prog directly on PIC/BLM as the limited rezz windows you get could be covered by the healers. You could even do a zombie like mechanic where a rezzed person turns against you unless fully healed, so chain rezzing becomes dangerous without the healers input. For these fights you can either have them be melee useful or melee hostile

You could make fights that apply near constant pyretics or near constant anti pyretics that only apply to movement, you could even make them only apply to DPS. So a near constant pyretic favours BLM/PIC, a near constant anti pyretic favours phys ranged or melee

The idea is to make raise just another tool that can be a help or even a hinderance that makes you either favour or disfavour the rezz casters depending on the situation. Rezz being near eternally useful is only because of the stale fight design that allows it to be eternally useful because they are never encouraged to try to make other classes benefits MORE useful than rezz

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Originally Posted by Emitans

Deciding that melee DPS get to be better than the other DPS "just because" is silly.

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this sounds more like you fail to get the reasoning behind the decision. its not 'melee DPS is better just because'. Let me explain.
The reason is, ranged has some big advantage over melee, which is, the range. as a ranged, you dont need to get close to the target to deal damage. you dont need to lose uptime when the target moves away from you, and you dont need to run away when the target use PBAOE attack. To make up for the disadvantages melee has, they are given higher damage potential. This is very important, otherwise theres no reason to play melee at all. if top DPS output between melee & ranged the same, while ranged is easier to play, why would you play melee? thats why melee has to have higher DPS than ranged.
Now lets factor in caster. caster, while having the ranged advantage, has a big disadvantage of casting. with the same reason as above, they have to have higher damage potential than ranged, otherwise why would anyone choose caster if they can do the same amount of DPS without the casting hurdle as ranged instead?
Thats why, BLM DPS potential is on par with melee. SMN & RDM are supposed to be on par with melee too, but then they have raise thus their dps potential is reduced (the rezz tax).

Now, the problem:

melee has higher DPS potential basically to make up for the difficulty they have to land their hit, right? so in a fair scenario, it should be something like this:

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melee : 10k damage per hit, can only hit 72 times throughout the fight due to having to disconnect from the boss, deal 720k total damage for the full battle.
caster: 9k damage per hit, can only hit 80 times throughout the fight due to having no time to cast, deal 720k total damage for the full battle.
ranged: 7.2k damage per hit, manage to hit 100 times throughout the fight, deal 720k total damage for the full battle.

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they have different damage potential, but in the end they deal the same amount of damage. balanced, fair, everyone happy.

but the reality is, keeping uptime as melee & caster in this game is not as hard as its supposed to, thus in the end it becomes something like this:

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melee : 10k damage per hit, can only hit 83 times throughout the fight due to having to disconnect from the boss, deal 830k total damage for the full battle.
caster: 9k damage per hit, can only hit 90 times throughout the fight due to having no time to cast, deal 810k total damage for the full battle.
ranged: 7.2k damage per hit, manage to hit 100 times throughout the fight, deal 720k total damage for the full battle.

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thus it gives the illusion that melee is the best DPS.

the better solution is to fix the encounter difficulty so keeping uptime as melee & caster is as hard as its supposed to be.