Paladin Skill Count Question

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

another reason why I want intervention changed is because Intervention is just a annoying skill the rampart/sentinel giving 10% or the value is just worse makes no sense, The animation looks awful for intervention too, so getting a better one (aka holy sheltron) would be much wanted lol.

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I actually quite like the animation - I use it for GPose clear screenshots very often as well.

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Originally Posted by Jade_Tyrant

This is the reason I personally don't want them merged. Being able to throw out both skills in the same weave window is very nice, since they have a 4 second duration on part of their mitigation and dual tank busters are usually hitting both tanks at the exact same time. The small delay on re-using the skill would make that much more difficult (if it'd even be possible to do without clipping). If it ends up happening regardless, it's not the worst thing in the world, but I'd rather see other skills get changed/merged before merging those two.

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Oh absolutely, the tight timing would make condensing these two more clunky for the player, especially as my Intervention is macro'd which already has enhanced risks of clipping with the GCD. The spell having an internal cooldown on top of this, combined with the short 4-second window available, would make weaving them in the same window more prone to clipping - and I would consider each clip a fault of game design as opposed to player expression/skill here.

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Originally Posted by Nicola_Kunu

I actually quite like the animation - I use it for GPose clear screenshots very often as well.

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Holy Sheltron looks way better to me, I feel like intervention is one of the most underwhealming defensive abilities visually, when you compare it to something like TBN.
I feel like It would look better if it looked like the Paladin channelled the Holy Sheltron on a target instead, but if you like the current fair enough

Has anyone here mentioned how Cover needs to get buffed/reworked?

Might I suggest that upon casting Cover to an ally, we get a buff called Heroic Cover where it is a Holmgang effect of not reducing our health lower than 1 when the covered ally takes damage which will potentially kill us, then expends the buff and breaks the tether. That way, we will not die if we cover someone all while having Hallowed Ground on.

It's still niche and has a potential to cheese certain mechanics but a much needed one as let's be honest, WAR's insane self-healing is a thing.. why not PLD given the ultimate cheese mechanic.

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Originally Posted by rawker

Has anyone here mentioned how Cover needs to get buffed/reworked?

Might I suggest that upon casting Cover to an ally, we get a buff called Heroic Cover where it is a Holmgang effect of not reducing our health lower than 1 when the covered ally takes damage which will potentially kill us, then expends the buff and breaks the tether. That way, we will not die if we cover someone all while having Hallowed Ground on.

It's still niche and has a potential to cheese certain mechanics but a much needed one as let's be honest, WAR's insane self-healing is a thing.. why not PLD given the ultimate cheese mechanic.

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I feel like cover should
1. Not Cost Gauge.
2. Range should be extended.
3. You and the covered target, will both be immune to knock back and certain debuffs during the cover will be removed, (instead of transferring those to the PLD).
4. Add a "Additional effect" at a certain level this can either be mitigation or a regen or something of the sorts, to give it some more use.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I feel like cover should
1. Not Cost Gauge.
2. Range should be extended.
3. You and the covered target, will both be immune to knock back and certain debuffs during the cover will be removed, (instead of transferring those to the PLD).
4. Add a "Additional effect" at a certain level this can either be mitigation or a regen or something of the sorts, to give it some more use.

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1. I don't mind the Oath Gauge cost, to be honest. It's just that its risk vs benefit seems to not be worth it for the cost. Hence, a future trait that enhances its effect would suffice.
2. If we're talking Fey Union range increase, then yes. This is a very welcomed change. In fact, while we're at it, removing the initial gauge cost and treat it like Fey Union consuming gauge over time makes it more desirable to use.
3. So an extra Arm's Length to yourself and the covered target? I could understand that the covered ally will still need to pop a cooldown to not get flung over but the extra anti-knockback property for the PLD will be abused.
4. As I have mentioned in your quoted message, the only effect I would like it to have is a Heroic Cover buff that will ensure that if the covered ally receives damage that would be fatal for the PLD, it will not reduce the PLD's HP below 1, consumes the buff and breaks the tether, prematurely. This is to ensure that while the PLD is in the middle of Hallowed Ground and is still susceptible to an ally's Cover damage, he will not die, and waste a 7-min cooldown that will only be reset if the party wipes. Just to add, to prevent abuse, the Heroic Cover buff can only be applied once every 120 secs. If Cover expires without the PLD taking lethal damage that will consume the buff, it will still get applied the next time the PLD uses Cover. The only time the buff timer goes on cooldown is once it is used up (Covered ally redirects lethal damage to the PLD).

I wouldn't want Intervention and Sheltron be consolidated into one button tbh, especially given that intervention is currently a much stronger CD than Cover and a better use of gauge for target mit.

where with some other buttons where they share a CD (thill & BW for example), PLD has a unique ability where you can mit yourself with sheltron and then cast intervention to your Co tank at the same time, and this is very useful in a lot of high end scenarios as PLD gauge is very free (10 autos for 50, 20 autos to completely refill). a good example for this is DSR, with how you can mit though Double Dragons and also the thordan busters + cleaves. or in any situation where there is tank busters on both tanks.

as for right now, the button that really don't have a lot of use alongside cover is Shield bash, this is taking AoE situations in dungeons into account. shield lob isnt as useful due to Holy Spirit, but it is the PLD equivalent to tomahawk and the others including the increased aggro. clemency and cover will likely stay as it is the part of the overall class flair to the callbacks to past PLD's (and their use of restorative white magic)

as for button bloat, the likely case for next expansion is that if they do not remove buttons, they will mostly just give upgrades on top of existing buttons (take goring blade right now or known as Boring blade, this could be upgraded to a different move at 100, the same can be done with Circle of Scorn)

Edit for other parts:

Cover has more or less been dead in general use since SHB where it was brought into the Oath Gauge AND removed the 20% mit the PLD got in Stormblood. I have been wanting them to rework it or make it worth the gauge cost for about 5 years now as it went untouched in EW

TBN while cool, is objectively one of the worst tank cooldowns this expac. given it costs MP for a shield that has 25% of the targets max HP into it AND if it doesn't pop you waste a resource that is tied to the DRK's damage output.

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Originally Posted by Metricasc

I wouldn't want Intervention and Sheltron be consolidated into one button tbh, especially given that intervention is currently a much stronger CD than Cover and a better use of gauge for target mit.

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But... it would still be pretty much the same ability? if not stronger if you consolidated both?
I don't see a lot of people also saying they don't want its double tank buster capabilities to still be a thing.

with cover it shouldn't really be on gauge, I feel like PLD's "gauge" really comes to being something that can easily be replaced if holy/intervention were on two shared stacks anyway.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

But... it would still be pretty much the same ability? if not stronger if you consolidated both?
I don't see a lot of people also saying they don't want its double tank buster capabilities to still be a thing.

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Not exactly, what differs intervention from sheltron overall is that the mit for the full CD goes from 10% to 20% if rampart or Sentinel is active on the PLD when its used on another party member, this is separate from Knights Resolve which is an additional 10% for 4 seconds and a regen.

sheltron is a flat 15% on the PLD before knights resolve.

and as stated previously, having the ability to chuck 2 short mits to you as a PLD and the other tank is huge in a lot of situations. it really shines in ex trials, savage raids and ultimate raids.
allowing for the class having one of the best defensive profiles out of any tank as is.

trust me on this, removing it is a terrible idea despite not many talking about it.

I kinda disagree with combining them, as well. Both have its uses. What limits the frequency of Intervention usage is how fights are designed. I mean, if there is a need for it, it will be used, is it not?

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Originally Posted by Metricasc

Not exactly, what differs intervention from sheltron overall is that the mit for the full CD goes from 10% to 20% if rampart or Sentinel is active on the PLD when its used on another party member, this is separate from Knights Resolve which is an additional 10% for 4 seconds and a regen.

sheltron is a flat 15% on the PLD before knights resolve.

and as stated previously, having the ability to chuck 2 short mits to you as a PLD and the other tank is huge in a lot of situations. it really shines in ex trials, savage raids and ultimate raids.
allowing for the class having one of the best defensive profiles out of any tank as is.

trust me on this, removing it is a terrible idea despite not many talking about it.

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I think I rather Intervention/Sheltron be the same ability, rather then slightly different Mitigation values where holy Sheltron is usually the stronger one, I'd be more content with intervention if it actually felt like a different ability but in reality it's used in the exact same way you'd use TBN or HOC on a party member, The only real difference is because it's tied to gauge you can use it on self and a target. The Idea that the 20% or 30% mit active adds more depth to the ability is really is just odd, to me it feels like PLD gets a worser effect for party members while warrior gets to heal both targets, GNB gets to shield and DRK has oblation & TBN. using on someone else is a net neutral where as Intervention is generally a slightly worse holy sheltron. Intervention isn't really anything interesting. I wouldn't even mind if it had to take up hotbar space still, just it was more consistent and it shared a similar animation to holy sheltron, instead of throwing a circle at a person.

I really don't think anything would be lost by merging the two, other then double tank busters becoming a bit more annoying, Which is something I think they could solve, But personally I think making more space for Paladin is Ideal as the current Job is already bland and is in need of interesting skills and less skills that are filler like going blade. Intervention/sheltron being merged makes sense to me, but it's not the only button I would change, I've mentioned merging previous buttons.

To me Paladin really needs a overhaul, It's clear the direction of the job is in a rough spot, theirs really nothing that can be added other then upgrades, which to me I think I'll just give up on playing PLD if it stays the same, I really enjoyed it for it's rotational difference from other tanks in SHB and early EW, now it's very samey and the fact is the sheer amount of Filler, bloat and skills that could be merged are the reason why PLD's likely not going to be able to grow unless theirs serval buttons removed/reworked/merged. The gauge is out dated and needs a purpose other then being able to hold two charges of your defensive ability, Cover, clemency, shield bash all are just taking up hotbar space with rare useage, instead of some general useage while keeping PLD's identity, FOF & Req serve the same purpose of being burst buttons, Goring blade exists to exist. The list goes on with the Issues PLD has.