SE, don't overthink Summoner 7.0. Just give people what they want. Just do it.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

New SMN feels complete enough to me, though I feel like after Phoenix you should use the other three ARR Primals (Leviathan, Ramuh, and Shiva)

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This is exactly where I think the current idea of "incomplete" SMN lies, is that the rotation after Demi-Phoenix is exactly the same as Demi-Bahamut. the sole difference being that instead of intense damage from Bahamut, you just do a lot of regen in between semi-high numbers with phoenix. everything in-between is Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda spam. hell, Leviathan, Ramuh, and Shiva could probably fit as support AoE summons in comparison to Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda being DPS AoE. Leviathan's Astral flow places a debuff on enemies, every time you attack with Leviathan Rite/Catastrophe it makes an explosion that damages and gives minor healing. Ramuh's could be a DoT/Damage Down debuff that increases in potency depending on how many Rites/Catastrophes you use beforehand. Shiva's could be a shield that explodes after it's broken or on command. and once again, why stop there? continue on with Trances and summons for Heavensward and Stormblood, maybe they can be specific single-target variants, one set for outright damage and one for more support. upgrade the ARR primals to their Eden variants with potency increases for no DPS loss later down the line. add in extra gauges or mechanics to do off-hand summons for powerful attacks or supports with summons like Odin, Knights of the Round, Moggle Mog, hell maybe even Eureka too, after using your Demi-summons in specific orders. maybe have carbuncle work on the old Demi mechanic with attacking between pet commands and being eaten for summons, could possibly move Ruin IV procs to that if there's enough time that it's on the field between summons. Aetherflow stacks coming from your summoning instead of Energy Drain/Siphon so there's more Fester and Painflare weaving. maybe call upon the Eldest of Elder Primals (you know the ones) as a reward for a specific weaving of Demi-summons and keeping Astral or Umbral aether flowing without opposition.

there's so much to be built off of new SMN IMO, and the template for it is easily already there just in the main story alone. add in all the side story primals and the like and you got more than enough to work with for at least 4 expansions of steady additions and improvements, if not more.

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Originally Posted by Vinal211

This is exactly where I think the current idea of "incomplete" SMN lies, is that the rotation after Demi-Phoenix is exactly the same as Demi-Bahamut.

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I think the smn is incomplete because it only has one base rotation and nothing else. Not because it has no other summons, or rather, it's not the main point.
The problem with smn is that it currently only has one basic rotation and that's it. It is the simplest gcd rotation of drg. Stop, done. It has nothing else that makes the class deep. Frankly if it has to be like this, remove everything and just do the boss mechanics like Bardam in Bardam's mettle (SQE, just kidding).

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Originally Posted by Renathras

It's the easiest Job in the game

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The point is not whether the class is easy or difficult, but its accessibility.
If you add depth to the smn gameplay, however it will be the most accessible and most digestible class. This is because it was thought out, well in my opinion, to be clear: You have elementals that have Rite and Flow and every minute you have Bahamut/phoenix. It's the easiest class to understand and that's the important thing. But simpler not because it is stupid but because conceptually it is well done and easy to interpret.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

SMN is, as of this writing, the most used Caster in TOP Ultimate clears

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Now it's not that easy to play, now you really don't play with this class. You're playing to do the right raid mechanics. If in HC2 the boss could be attacked, for the smn, it would make no difference.
And that's why it's preferred over the other casters. Not because it's nice to play, but because the only thing you do is follow the raid mechanics without being distracted by your rotation without having any penalties in terms of damage. Why do I have to play the rdm if with a non-existent effort I perform better with the smn?

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

I think the smn is incomplete because it only has one base rotation and nothing else. Not because it has no other summons, or rather, it's not the main point.
The problem with smn is that it currently only has one basic rotation and that's it. It is the simplest gcd rotation of drg. Stop, done. It has nothing else that makes the class deep.

The point is not whether the class is easy or difficult, but its accessibility.
If you add depth to the smn gameplay, however it will be the most accessible and most digestible class. This is because it was thought out, well in my opinion, to be clear: You have elementals that have Rite and Flow and every minute you have Bahamut/phoenix. It's the easiest class to understand and that's the important thing. But simpler not because it is stupid but because conceptually it is well done and easy to interpret.

Now it's not that easy to play, now you really don't play with this class. You're playing to do the right raid mechanics. If in HC2 the boss could be attacked, for the smn, it would make no difference.

And that's why it's preferred over the other casters. Not because it's nice to play, but because the only thing you do is follow the raid mechanics without being distracted by your rotation without having any penalties in terms of damage. Why do I have to play the rdm if with a non-existent effort I perform better with the smn?

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i can't really disagree with this either. SMN is in that odd rut of feeling "incomplete" and yet the most readily accessible magic DPS in a meta catering to Melee from my own time playing and gathering everyone else's thoughts on playing it. which is still why i think that adding more summons with different kits aside from "deal all the damage" would probably be a good first step. granted a part of the optimization also for the singular rotation is knowing which elemental summon to use at what time, which...is still pretty bare bones as well admittedly, it's mainly just "do you use Garuda first to get Slipstream out asap, or do you use titan/ifrit instead because the boss' first mechanic involves it moving around a lot?"

Let's bring Demi-Phoenix back up as an example. do you think making it a separate button from Demi-Bahamut would make the rotation more complex, or at least more "open" in terms of choosing between damage and support? would putting Ramuh, Leviathan, and Shiva on it with their own kits designed for a more supportive playstyle (while still having good damage options mind you) give at least an illusion of minor complexity by having to choose which sets of summons to use at specific points in time? how about having the Demis on their own separate oGCD's, but it's short enough (maybe something like 40-45 seconds, maybe even 30s) so that if you have to use a different set of summons before your current one is used up, you can readily do so?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Have you ever played a FF game before FF10?

I don't mean this as a slight, but FFX was the first FF game where Summons fought on the field - in place of, not alongside, their Summoner. I believe FF13 is the only Final Fantasy to date where Summons fought in the field alongside their Summoner. (Maybe FF11, never played it so not sure how it worked).

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That's what I mean. Final Fantasy's definition of a "summoner" is different than most other games because their "summons" aren't something that actively fight alongside you. You don't really control most of your summons' abilities; rather you channel them. I get why they mostly removed the "pets" because commanding the pet to do an ability was really awkward up to (and including Shadowbringers).

Summoning Shiva should have us become a vessel for Shiva, same way it's been done for every Shiva summoning in the story so far.

It gives narrative cohesion, keeps a unique identity to 14's Shiva and opens up mechanical possibilities - you get rooted in an iceblock, free yourself, play as Shiva for a while, using casts for range, a melee combo, dragon bow and cap the phase off with diamond dust.

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

The point is not whether the class is easy or difficult, but its accessibility.

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I think that depends on what is changed. Making things clunky or convoluted isn't adding good gameplay or depth, imo. BRD is a presumably easy Job, but when your hotbar is exploding with procs, not so much. It also depends on the person, as some people find rigid rotations easier while others find timers to track easier, and still others prefer proc/priority systems.

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Not because it's nice to play, but because the only thing you do is follow the raid mechanics without being distracted by your rotation without having any penalties in terms of damage.

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For the record, that is how I would define "nice to play". That it is logical and flows smoothly enough that you can play it almost without having to think about it once you've got it down. Something that is not nice to play never reaches that "second nature" stage. As for RDM, it's honestly pretty nice to play as well. The bigger issue is that the game does a poor job of telling you when abilities proc.

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Originally Posted by ataren3

That's what I mean. Final Fantasy's definition of a "summoner" is different than most other games because their "summons" aren't something that actively fight alongside you. You don't really control most of your summons' abilities; rather you channel them. I get why they mostly removed the "pets" because commanding the pet to do an ability was really awkward up to (and including Shadowbringers).

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I'm not quite sure what you mean. Many other game summons work this way as well. Thee idea of a summon that fights with you is a RELATIVELY new concept in video games. The reason for this is because AI is far better now than it was in, say, the 90s. You started seeing the more modern "fights alongside you" summons in the 2000s. Oblivion and FFX and so on. And even in many of those cases, you didn't command the summons. Baldur's Gate had summons as far back as the mid90s, but they were often (depending on the summon) kind of independent. Oblivion's summons (and I guess Morrowind?) were fire and forget - you summoned them and then they kind of just went on their own personal rampage, regardless of what you were doing.

There's a bit of a distinction between a Warlock or Hunter (WoW) type pet class and a Summoner (high mage) type class. And even among Summoners, there are often a couple flavors of them. FF11's has both commandable avatars and "fire and forget" ones.

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Originally Posted by Vinal211

Let's bring Demi-Phoenix back up as an example. do you think making it a separate button from Demi-Bahamut would make the rotation more complex, or at least more "open" in terms of choosing between damage and support? would putting Ramuh, Leviathan, and Shiva on it with their own kits designed for a more supportive playstyle (while still having good damage options mind you) give at least an illusion of minor complexity by having to choose which sets of summons to use at specific points in time? how about having the Demis on their own separate oGCD's, but it's short enough (maybe something like 40-45 seconds, maybe even 30s) so that if you have to use a different set of summons before your current one is used up, you can readily do so?

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A problem here is honestly FFXIV's super rigid combat system. It makes balance tight and allows for some thrilling fights...but highly limits class design.

Granted, MOST MMOs followed the WoW "Holy Trinity" instead of the Everquest "Holy Quaternary", and don't have a full on "Support" role (though WoW came close, and FF11, with its far more flexible Job system, arguably allows for it). So that ultimately limits things a lot. Like RDM, in Final Fantasy terms, should be able to be a Healer. In FF11, if it picks White Mage or Scholar as its SubJob, it can be and often is a Healer or Support/Healer in high end content in that game.

FFXIV's combat system has positives, like balance and high intensity encounters, but the downside of that is limited class design options/spaces.

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Originally Posted by Vinal211

"open" in terms of choosing between damage and support?

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This solution would be fine if the smn was indispensable in the party or the smn was a healer.
Choosing whether to use a damage path or a support path would only make the support path niche. Why would a dps use the support path if the two healer/tank/general mitigations can handle everything? Why should I sacrifice 43/30 seconds of damage (even if the damage lost is little) to enter a support path that is not so necessary? In my opinion it would be better to have all the elementals available to use as you see fit, without support concept and playing with the timing of the cast and recast.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

It also depends on the person, as some people find rigid rotations easier while others find timers to track easier, and still others prefer proc/priority systems.

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All the more reason it supports my thesis. Even if the smn will gain mechanics to make its gameplay deep, it will not affect its easy-to-understand essence. Because they have given it a basis that even chairs understand.

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For the record, that is how I would define "nice to play". That it is logical and flows smoothly enough that you can play it almost without having to think about it once you've got it down.

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Currently the smn has the rotation of a tank but without tank kit and without tankbursters or boss placement responsibilities. Currently a smn has the combo of a sam/mnk at 60, Currently a smn has 1/2 the GCD rotation of a drg excluding all his ogcd. At this point remove all skills and just move. What's the point of having a rotation? Let's just do boss mechanics like in Bardam (I'm repetitive but that's just the feeling I get when I play smn). Let's just do mechanics like hc2, because that's pretty much what's happening. There should be balance, and with the smn it is not respected. The smn is also a dangerous precedent and unfairly disadvantages other caster options. A DPS rotation does not have to be forcibly intricate (see dnc or mch), but neither does what the smn is currently assisting, a bare rotation of anything. If you take away an interesting rotation from the dps, what do they have left? Nothing. At this point? If they don't know how to make the rotation interesting, keep it unchanged and give him a heal kit and he becomes the fifth healer in the game. And let's put an end to these dark days.

I would like to see Ramah Shiva and Leviathan too I think it will be a welcome edition to Final Fantasy 14 we probably won't be able to summon them till level 100 but it would be nice to see them lol

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Originally Posted by ataren3

I want Summoner to FEEL more like summoner and be more complex than... what we have now. Current summoner isn't a summoner. You don't summon something to have it fight with you. Titan, Garuda, and Ifrit all pop out and go away. Oh and look at that! You can now use THEIR abilities for them!

Bahamut and Phoenix are fine. They actually do stuff and you can order them to do abilities. I wish they had a little more to them than their equivalent of an auto-attack with two one-time abilities but at least they make you feel a little bit like a summoner.

The current summoner feels more akin to a "Channeler" class which I would be totally fine with if it was a different class.

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For almost all of FF history, summoner has been a glorified versatile mage. Summons were regular spells with a really pretty animations.

They dealt damage, healed, buffed, debuffed etc. the summon appears does it’s thing and disappears.

Our current version of summoner is a pretty good balance. Phoenix and Bahamut are our big summons that stick around.

I would just like the remainder of the classic summons, and slightly more flexibility in our rotation. It’s a very rigid rotation and you just basically press the buttons in order, with many buttons just becoming other buttons (which is fine most of that time).

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

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"But we just can't figure out any way to add anything more to Summoner. It's just too hard. It's just not possible. It's perfect already."

Haha that's okay, I know life can be hard sometimes, so I'll do your job for you, free of charge.

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It's really weird SE has such an issue with coming up with ideas on what to do for design for some classes, because the playerbase sure doesn't seem to have this creative block the design team does. Like, we could come up with changes for DRG that don't require a full rework, I'd imagine. Or changes to PLD that didn't turn Goring Blade into a Sonic Break clone