Are there so few Dancers that nobody's giving feedback?

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Originally Posted by Anhra

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You're completely glossing over the fact that it's a proc-based job. The engagement relies on responsive gameplay. Only 4 combo buttons, sure, but you don't know how many you're going to be using or which ones until seconds before you need to use them.

You can say that "only 4 buttons" for the basic combo is "easier" than something like DRG, which has twice as many, but DRG's chain is always 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 5, 4 repeating whereas DNC's is either 1, 2, or 1, 2, 3, or 1, 2, 4 or 1, 2, 3, 4 (or 1, 2, or 1, 3, 2, or 1, 2, 4, or 1, 3, 2, 4, depending on playstyle).

It's just as easy to say DRG is easier just because its rotation is prescribed whereas DNC has to keep an eye on procs and react accordingly.

Ultimately neither assertion is correct because which is easier varies by player - some players find prescribed rotations easier to execute than procs - some don't. The entire argument is asinine.

DNC is put together pretty well as is, no real complaints I have...that don't revolve around my party and how they always die when I put DP on them, but alas, the move is blessed as much as it is cursed.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

DNC is put together pretty well as is, no real complaints I have...that don't revolve around my party and how they always die when I put DP on them, but alas, the move is blessed as much as it is cursed.

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One neat situational ability for DNC could be a proc when you dance partner KOs. Like maybe a single-target shield/heal with increased potency on weakened party members.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

One neat situational ability for DNC could be a proc when you dance partner KOs. Like maybe a single-target shield/heal with increased potency on weakened party members.

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Or maybe a revival dance with a 3-4 minute cooldown that instantly revives your DP. That would be nice and also guarantees it couldn't be abused, it just means you wouldn't have to worry about your dance partner staying down for long.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Or maybe a revival dance with a 3-4 minute cooldown that instantly revives your DP. That would be nice and also guarantees it couldn't be abused, it just means you wouldn't have to worry about your dance partner staying down for long.

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That's a realllllllly good idea in a world where we're allowed to have cool, quirky things, but

I can already see it being removed because it's used in speedclears to allow someone to skip some annoying mechanic

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

That's a realllllllly good idea in a world where we're allowed to have cool, quirky things, but

I can already see it being removed because it's used in speedclears to allow someone to skip some annoying mechanic

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But would it be worth it if you still get weakness?

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

But would it be worth it if you still get weakness?

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Good point and, yeah, my example wasn't great, because I was distracted and in a hurry.

What I was trying to say is that, while I personally really like the idea of a, "No! No KO'ing! Dance Partner, get back up, immediately!" action — because that's exactly the kind of tool that Dancer often wants to have in chaotic situations... it runs into problems when I start exploring "how is this actually going to be used?"

If you Raise your partner and they have Weakness, then, you now want to switch to a different partner anyway, so it didn't accomplish much, after all.

If you Raise your partner and it bypasses Weakness, then this has instantly become a tool for skipping mechanics in the minds of MMO players that leave no stone unturned when trying to outsmart encounters.

If the Raise is also instant and/or OGCD, then... you can't swap partner to a KO'd target. So you might also be pressured to keep your Partner on Healers during prog or dangerous encounters, so that you can add another Raise to the pile.

So I'm just trying to think about what the well-intentioned idea would turn into in actual practice.

In general, I love DNC and have heavily enjoyed its gameplay throughout Shadowbringers.

My biggest critiques of the job going into EW were:

1. DNC's low level moveset is very barren and makes synched content feel very flat. Flourish should be DNC's level 50 "Capstone" instead of Fan Dance II. Saber Dance and Devilment could also stand to be weakened and introduced much earlier and then buffed via a trait at their currently obtained levels.

2. Improvisation was a superfluous action that offered almost nothing of substance to your gameplay or your performance. Any gains received through Improvisation were beyond negligible that it brings into question why it existed in the first place.

3. DNC's "downtime" between burst windows is really slow and could benefit from a bit more consistency and/or things to do while you work toward your next burst window.

My thoughts now after EW:

1. The issue of DNC's early-level gameplay has not been addressed and has even been exacerbated. Flourish's change makes DNC a little less engaging compared to endgame level 80 during Shadowbringers. Our new tools in Fan Dance IV, Tilana, and Starfall Dance help to offset the reduced flourishes and lack of a need to be in melee range as Flourish used to demand, but are entirely gated beyond level 80.

2. Improvisation is better; its not a particularly important tool, and one could argue about the unnecessary-ness of sustain on non-healers given how little damage exists in the game as it is, but I do like having a bit of sustain utility on a DPS conceptually. That said, its very difficult for me to double-weave it without clipping my GCD even with an ethernet cable connection. It would be nice if using the GCD didn't cancel your chance to use Improvised Finish, or better yet, kill the channel and just make it an AoE effect that surrounds you until the duration expires or you use Improvised finish instead.

3. The changes to Esprit help make DNC a bit more consistent and more engaging between burst windows, but I still feel that we could use more feather overflow to try and have a bit more to do during that between time, or something to that nature. I feel like having Starfall Dance also proc from Flourish rather than Devilment would both make its auto DH/Crit nature make a bit more sense since you'd get it every 60 seconds rather than 120 seconds and make your 60 minute windows less sad feeling since it ends almost immediately now. Having another way to gain Fan Dance IVs as well would be nice, perhaps if it procced off of Saber Dance as well or something. Naturally some potency changes might need to occur to make all this possible.

4. I feel like with Tilana, something that makes sense would be to create an alternative dance to Standard Step--something that you use one or the other off, whereas this new Step would not grant you and your partner Standard Finish, but offers some other form of greater damage or utility instead. This is something I've felt as well since before EW as Standard Finish lasts 60 seconds whereas Standard Step's CD is 30 seconds. Since Standard Step's potency is falling off in contrast to pumping out more procced actions or things like Saber Dance and whatnot, perhaps its time we got a second charge of it to help fight the issue of drift. I tend to find myself in a situation where it comes off CD with a few seconds left on my technical window, and I could use something like Saber Dance instead and that means I drift slightly and it's an unclean feeling.

5. I don't care for having depart-mentalized AoE buttons (things like Fan Dance II, Windmill, Bladeshower, etc.). AoE is just not a prominent part of FFXIV and we're never put in a situation where we're actively making decisions between single target and AoE. I just don't see a point to having them be separate and would rather have actions that are a part of my ST rotation that happen to be AoE instead.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I feel like with Tilana, something that makes sense would be to create an alternative dance to Standard Step--something that you use one or the other off, whereas this new Step would not grant you and your partner Standard Finish, but offers some other form of greater damage or utility instead.

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That was what a lot of the original speculation about what Tillana was started out as, after the EW Benchmark / Job Actions Preview, when players were trying to figure out how a new Dance would fit into the rotation and justify its existence.

Then it turned out to just be another button to mindlessly slap... sigh.

But yeah, I think Tillana would have been a lot more interesting as a beefier Standard Step that didn't refresh Finish.

Giving Standard Step charges seems like a solid idea, and if Standard Step and Imaginary Tillana both shared charges, it would ease the potential 'punishment' from misaligning the Standard Step CD and the partner Finish timer.

Other than slightly lower DPS, which SE has already acknowledged they want to fix, the dancer plays fairly well. There are a few things i would like to see just personally, but i like the core of the class.
I kinda wished this class had the +20% GCD speed that monks had, i feel like dancer would fit well as the ranged "faster paced" class as its identity is based on rhythm already. Since this class doesn't have a ton of OGCDs (assuming you don't have Fans Saved up), then it feels like there is a lot of downtime between button presses. And that makes NOT getting a proc feel even worse. This class would feel so much more fun if it was a little faster paced.

I actually really like the playstyle of dancer. I like proccing abilities, i like the RNG nature.

Other than that, i wish they could add in one or two more sound effects to choose from when using dance skills. The "Tambourine" sound doesn't fit everyone, and it would be nice to be able to have a few to choose from. Just by adding other options they could remove the stigma of it being the "Girl" class by giving it some more badass sounds when performing your dances. I tend to lean more towards darker classes, and it just feels like im meming myself when i swap from Dark Knight into Dancer and start shaking a tambourine around.

Oh, and after coming back to DNC recently, it feels like their abilities unlock levels went up even more? It always felt like they were too high. You don't even unlock Closed Position, your CORE class identity, until 60. It feels pretty bad when you do roulettes as a dancer and you don't even get to buff your ally, which is kinda what your class is built around.
I also feel like the fact that En Avant has two traits to add charges to it is redundant. It should start with 2 charges as soon as you unlock it, and have one trait to add a third. Just seems unnecessary.