Best bow for ARC/BRD

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

I find that it makes sense in my opinion. If it were simply base damage, then there would be no reason to ever use low delay weapons the way everything else works in game. The Damage is balanced by the delay ONLY for AA. In the case of WS, they have their own cooldowns and TP limitations to keep them in check and thus are unaffected by delay directly in any way, so lower delay weapons would have very soft hitting WS which would result in them being incredibly inferior. This is in fact the reason why everyone thought the Garuda weapons would be crap when their stats were first revealed.

DPS however gives a solid measure of how much damage the weapons will put out compared to others with AA, and by making it so it is the primary stat that effects WS damage it becomes consistent. This way, one can chose high delay/high damage weapons, such as the GC and HDcraft weapons, or low delay/low damage weapons based on personal preference.

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Yeah, I don't disagree with that, and I do appreciate the idea of balancing them on DPS so that you can look at other factors in the weapons, i.e. +/-acc, +/-str, and what have you, without getting to caught up in whether or not you'll be nerfing your dmg overall. Just 7ish years of XI is a bit hard to shake. Even more so on other jobs where AA is such a small % of your overall dmg.

There are a few exceptional DPS players in my shell who I generally defer any optimization question too. They feel that right now ifrit is superior to spine.

I want to see what DPS numbers an ARC /w Sarnga +1 can put up on a good 2min. Mistress fight, I know a brd doing songs with minor support can still go over 100dps and a pure DPS mnk can do 160+

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

I find that it makes sense in my opinion. If it were simply base damage, then there would be no reason to ever use low delay weapons the way everything else works in game.

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Instead, we have a system where high DPS weapons almost completely obsolete high DMG weapons, so it's 6 of one or a half-dozen of the other. I prefer a system where you choose between slow, hard-hitting weapons or faster, lighter weapons, but when the faster weapons also hit the hardest, it kind of kills the comparison.

Anyway, a few things bear mentioning:

- DPS never accounts for anything but DMG/delay; this means that the ATK+30 on Ifrit (or whatever you have melded to Sarnga) will not factor in. Given that Garuda has no real +damage bonuses, Garuda's DPS is not quite representative.
- Verdant Shortbow's DPS is significantly higher than Ifrit, and the DMG is slightly better than Garuda (along with having DEX+3 and ATK+5). Might be worth considering.
- Does Sarnga+1 even have better DPS than Garuda? Melds should easily push it over the top, but still...

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Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

Instead, we have a system where high DPS weapons almost completely obsolete high DMG weapons, so it's 6 of one or a half-dozen of the other. I prefer a system where you choose between slow, hard-hitting weapons or faster, lighter weapons, but when the faster weapons also hit the hardest, it kind of kills the comparison.

Anyway, a few things bear mentioning:

- DPS never accounts for anything but DMG/delay; this means that the ATK+30 on Ifrit (or whatever you have melded to Sarnga) will not factor in. Given that Garuda has no real +damage bonuses, Garuda's DPS is not quite representative.
- Verdant Shortbow's DPS is significantly higher than Ifrit, and the DMG is slightly better than Garuda (along with having DEX+3 and ATK+5). Might be worth considering.
- Does Sarnga+1 even have better DPS than Garuda? Melds should easily push it over the top, but still...

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What you're saying makes little sense, since high DPS weapons can also be high Damage weapons. The point of making WS damage based on DPS is so that you can chose between faster and lighter hitting weapons versus slower and harder hitting weapons.

A good example is the Sarnga +1. The HQ increases the Damage value enough to push the DPS above that of Garuda's Spine, although marginally. At the same time this is a weapon that is slow and hits hard like Ifrit's Bow.

As for your mentioning the Verdant Shortbow, it's DPS value is 38, whereas Ifrit's Bow DPS value is 36.74. So indeed going by the logic behind why I suggest the Spine, the Shortbow may seem like it can have an edge over Ifrit's, however there's still the large attack power buff to overcome as well as the additional fire damage. While on most weapons the fire damage may not amount to much, on a job/class where most of the damage comes from Light Shots it is worth noting. That all being said, Garuda's Spine has a DPS value of 40.96, which is greater than Verdant even more than Verdant is greater than Ifrit's. On top of that it also has additional wind damage comparable to Ifrit's fire damage.

That all being said, while DPS may be the primary factor when it comes to determining a weapon for DoW, ARC/BRD may follow a different path due to it's deviation in the distribution of damage between AA and WS compared to the rest. I won't argue if reputable players that have done thorough testing say they prefer Ifrit's Bow due to the higher Damage value bolstering their Light Shots being that the testing I have done has not been methodical or very thorough. I can say that the difference isn't very large between Ifrit's and Garuda's when it comes to BRD I suppose.

For ARC though, I don't see myself ever allowing an ARC as a DD into a full party scenario over a BRD unless they have a Sarnga (+1) as well as a full Gryphonskin set all melded properly. Being that both the weapon and the entire set come packed with DEX and PIE on every piece and can all be melded coupled with the high Damage and DPS of the Sarnga+1 allowing for heavy hitting Light Shots as well as increased stat caps I can see ARC getting a significant edge in DPS over BRD that way.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

What you're saying makes little sense, since high DPS weapons can also be high Damage weapons.

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In exactly the same sense that low delay weapons can have high DMG too, sure. Your argument along this line begins and ends with Sarnga (which BRD can't even equip). One weapon does not a paradigm make.

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The point of making WS damage based on DPS is so that you can chose between faster and lighter hitting weapons versus slower and harder hitting weapons.

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...except that the slower, "harder hitting" weapons hit softer when it comes to WS! So you are left with one weapon that hits harder on WS and has better damage-over-time on Light Shot, and one weapon that... does neither of those things. The only thing that even makes the comparison interesting is Barrage.

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I won't argue if reputable players that have done thorough testing say they prefer Ifrit's Bow due to the higher Damage value bolstering their Light Shots being that the testing I have done has not been methodical or very thorough.

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"Reputable players" making claims without data doesn't do much but show their own preferences.

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For ARC though, I don't see myself ever allowing an ARC as a DD into a full party scenario over a BRD unless they have a Sarnga (+1) as well as a full Gryphonskin set all melded properly.

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The only reason to bring BRD over ARC is the buffs, and even Gryphonskin will not substitute for them. Even without Gryphonskin, BRD-exclusive gear is nothing special compared to AH/melded gear that ARC has had available for a long time. (Unless you are referring to near-full Darklight BRD?)

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Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

In exactly the same sense that low delay weapons can have high DMG too, sure. Your argument along this line begins and ends with Sarnga (which BRD can't even equip). One weapon does not a paradigm make.

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Not my fault there aren't more choices in weapons. I'm talking about the DPS focused system versus a Damage focused system. It's better. That is all. Should they release a Garlean bow for BRD next patch that has high Damage and high delay, but the DPS is comparable to Garuda's Spine then voila. I was responding to your claim that this system with DPS making high Damage weapons obsolete. The system isn't doing that. Simply the weapons you have to chose from.

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...except that the slower, "harder hitting" weapons hit softer when it comes to WS! So you are left with one weapon that hits harder on WS and has better damage-over-time on Light Shot, and one weapon that... does neither of those things. The only thing that even makes the comparison interesting is Barrage.

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No, again harder hitting weapons don't necessarily need to be hitting softer for WS. Having high Damage and high DPS are not mutually exclusive. You're thinking BRD only right now while attempting to criticize the whole weapon stat design system.

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"Reputable players" making claims without data doesn't do much but show their own preferences.

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No argument here. I still continue to use the Spine. Fits my style better and I still feel it is superior to Ifrit's Bow. That being said, I haven't done thorough testing either.

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The only reason to bring BRD over ARC is the buffs, and even Darklight will not substitute for them. Even without Gryphonskin, BRD-exclusive gear is nothing special compared to AH/melded gear that ARC has had available for a long time.

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The buffs are no joke. They are what make BRD useful. ARC/BRD doesn't have the DPS ability to be worthwhile as an exclusive DD. However, for a support job with unique buffs as well as backup heals/defensive buffs, the DPS is nice. Also Rain of Death is quite nice.

However, the Sarnga+1 as well as the Gryphonskin gear is what I feel like may push ARC DPS high enough to be a worthwhile DD. If you think about it the Sarnga+1 has greatest DPS as well as the greatest Damage from what I recall, as well as 7 of each of it;s offensive stats. On top of all of that it can be melded. The Gryphonskin set also comes packed with enough DEX and PIE to already be solid before being melded.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Not my fault there aren't more choices in weapons. I'm talking about the DPS focused system versus a Damage focused system. It's better. That is all. Should they release a Garlean bow for BRD next patch that has high Damage and high delay, but the DPS is comparable to Garuda's Spine then voila.

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But that's exactly my point: a high DMG weapon is useless unless it also happens to be a high DPS weapon, because weapons with far lower DMG (but high DPS) will quite literally hit harder on WS.

For example, if SE adds a D30 bow with 2 delay, and a D125 bow with 5 delay, the D30 bow would CRUSH the D125 bow in WS damage. That's absurd.

The point is that by basing WS damage on DPS, you remove virtually all purpose of evaluating weapons based on DMG. All that matters is DPS; if the DPS is low, it doesn't matter how high the DMG is.

That's the problem with this system. Instead of weighing the benefits and drawbacks of a weapon that has great "white damage" (i.e. DPS) vs. one that is slow but hits hard on WS (i.e. DMG), you simply look at the DPS and ignore the DMG, because the DMG rating is irrelevant.

Just a thought here, don't kill me for it, but unless I've missed it ...
I haven't seen anyone assume that possibly the reason Bow dmg seems to all scale by DPS is because LS is in fact a skill and not an AA which is to say that like all the other abilities have dmg modifiers built in so does LS, it's not your standard AA pure base dmg.

End result, everyone has been testing a "free" WS as a base for everything. I know LS recast is tied to weapon delay, that doesn't mean anything more than LS has a base dps of EXACTLY the dps value for the weapon. If you could find a perfect 1:1 attk/def mob.

What Spider is saying is spot on, it's why this whole thing is so counter-intuitive, make a bow w/ a delay of 1 and dmg of 60+arrow_dmg, for any other weapon to match it they have to have 2x the base dmg at just 2 delay, a 4.5 delay would mean for equal DPS a base dmg of 270. It's an extreme example yes but it illustrates the point.

I know the rest of the argument here is towards arc/brd don't use AA so LS is it's replacement and it's the only job that works this way so everything is different than other jobs. I find it really hard to believe that SE went and wrote 2 completely different equations for regular melee and ranged though.

Gods I need to finish this job.

That's been rattling around in my head for hours while I was @work.

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Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

But that's exactly my point: a high DMG weapon is useless unless it also happens to be a high DPS weapon, because weapons with far lower DMG (but high DPS) will quite literally hit harder on WS.

For example, if SE adds a D30 bow with 2 delay, and a D125 bow with 5 delay, the D30 bow would CRUSH the D125 bow in WS damage. That's absurd.

The point is that by basing WS damage on DPS, you remove virtually all purpose of evaluating weapons based on DMG. All that matters is DPS; if the DPS is low, it doesn't matter how high the DMG is.

That's the problem with this system. Instead of weighing the benefits and drawbacks of a weapon that has great "white damage" (i.e. DPS) vs. one that is slow but hits hard on WS (i.e. DMG), you simply look at the DPS and ignore the DMG, because the DMG rating is irrelevant.

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You say that, yet at this very moment on this very thread Ifrit's Bow is being weighed against Garuda's Spine despite the large difference in DPS.

Also, I disagree. Even if the DPS is the same, high dmg vs low dmg is a choice to make each with pros and cons based on the class/job in question.

Also keep in mind if WS damage was based on Damage instead of DPS, there would never be any reason to use a low delay/dmg weapon due to the severely lacking WS hits. That is much, much more restrictive and unbalanced.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

Just a thought here, don't kill me for it, but unless I've missed it ...
I haven't seen anyone assume that possibly the reason Bow dmg seems to all scale by DPS is because LS is in fact a skill and not an AA which is to say that like all the other abilities have dmg modifiers built in so does LS, it's not your standard AA pure base dmg.

End result, everyone has been testing a "free" WS as a base for everything. I know LS recast is tied to weapon delay, that doesn't mean anything more than LS has a base dps of EXACTLY the dps value for the weapon. If you could find a perfect 1:1 attk/def mob.

What Spider is saying is spot on, it's why this whole thing is so counter-intuitive, make a bow w/ a delay of 1 and dmg of 60+arrow_dmg, for any other weapon to match it they have to have 2x the base dmg at just 2 delay, a 4.5 delay would mean for equal DPS a base dmg of 270. It's an extreme example yes but it illustrates the point.

I know the rest of the argument here is towards arc/brd don't use AA so LS is it's replacement and it's the only job that works this way so everything is different than other jobs. I find it really hard to believe that SE went and wrote 2 completely different equations for regular melee and ranged though.

Gods I need to finish this job.

That's been rattling around in my head for hours while I was @work.

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Actually ARC/BRD's Light Shot functions the same way AA for other classes does. The amount each LS hits for is based on Damage, not DPS. The only difference is it's manual input instead of auto.