SAM changes - I don’t mind it

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Originally Posted by Soge01

https://imgs.search.brave.com/ye3Ghx...dubG9h/ZC5wbmc

Who the fack did not understand how to play Warrior!? Pardon my language, but you gotta be dam near brain dead to think Warrior's a difficult job class to understand! Jesus christ, lol!

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Warrior in 4.0 was by far the most difficult tank to understand and play effectively. But they went from "actually difficult" to "pants on head" within 2 patches and doubled down on it with every expansion.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

People act like this is new.

They completely changed warrior within a patch or 2 of the game launching because "people didn't understand how to play it"

What did they do? Made it more like PLD.

People act like things getting nerfed is new. Coil was nerfed every new tier.


This isn't new. This has been the games design the entire time.

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Hyperbole and utter nonsense when it comes to Warrior 'being more like Paladin', or even why it was done.

We learned everything we could about Warrior at the time and mathematically it was better to play MARAUDER as a DPS than Warrior tank itself because the damage loss was that awful when it came to the 2.0 job, and the class frankly sucked. Their aggro was nonexistent when it came to aoe, their TP cost was extremely high for no reason, Vengeance had NO damage mitigation so they were actively playing with a cooldown that didn't work half the time (Remember when their 20% only affected Physical damage? You sure didn't). Threat Generation from Defiance was not as good as Shield Oath, to the point they had to actively break combo to keep aggro. Healing was more of a burden on Warrior due to their hp being higher and needing more mp to spend on them at a time where both MP and TP were more critical to spend. They literally face tanked things with higher base defense and hoped it worked out in 2.0. L2P was the meme answer when it was clear the developers had no idea what the actual state of Warrior was at the time. They didn't "Make it more like PLD", they made the class not terrible to play, aka not actively trolling your raid by picking it when Paladin was doing both more damage and could mitigate, well, anything in Coil.

But go on, please continue talking like you know what you're talking about when you clearly have no clue on any job you don't actively play when five minutes of google would have made you not post something so ridiculously false.

As for OP, the short answer is that Kaiten is a good animation and goes into the fantasy of Samurai that has been ingrained since its release, with the class feel growing better for both expansions. It is the second least busy melee dps job, and Reaper is frankly a terrifying class because it shows how future job changes will be. I have never played a slower class in XIV and I personally want no job to even come close to Reaper and it's low management. There are other skills to remove that would be more effective than randomly warping how a class plays for the sake of simplicity.

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Originally Posted by Enjuden

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I assume they meant the changes to warrior from 4.0 to 4.2...or atleast I would hope so.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I assume they meant the changes to warrior from 4.0 to 4.2...or atleast I would hope so.

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I assumed that too, until "They completely changed warrior within a patch or 2 of the game launching" was made in the post.

I don't post like that unless I am absolutely sure the context is relevant.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

You can use the excuse that players can't use x skill correctly for almost every skill and every job in the game. So many players can't play BLM correctly by misuse of flare, swiftcast, triple cast, thunder, ley lines, manafont, manaward, between the lines, aetherial manipulation, sharp cast. And that is just one job but are they removing any of these skills because players do not use them correctly?

You have created an excuse for the devs which so many other players do as well. Unless they come out and give a different reason, I will take the reason they have given us.

Edit: Also if players can't take time to learn how to play there class that is not my problem or the devs problem IMO. If you want to play a class and do end game content, learn to play it.

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Understandable that you feel this way, but it's been happening for years now. The homogenization of jobs, and streamlining their rotations. Just because a job like BLM hasn't been subjected to it in the same manner doesn't make this less true, nor does it make the job exempt from similar treatment in the future.

The thing about button bloat being the reason isn't a lie. But it isn't the entire truth. Fact of the matter is that Kaiten being removed is going to impact how SAM feels because it is a change that directly affects their APM. Consolidating skills like Shoha I/II and/or Guren/Senei does not do this. The higher a job's APM, the more difficult it becomes to play, and play consistently. If you don't want to look at it that way, another way is it becomes much easier to screw up.

With SAM, the addition of a Meikyo charge, Tsubame charge, and cap skills increased SAMs APM from the previous expansion. I haven't taken my SAM into anything significant this expansion, but from my understanding a chief issue was their damage has not been up to par, and if their APM has increased then this makes absolutely no sense. Sure, adding guaranteed crits onto their skills is one way to circumvent the issue, but it doesn't address the higher APM. And as was pointed out before, if no Kaiten is better than a misused Kaiten, then it becomes pretty clear [from a dev's perspective] that the removal of the skill should improve SAM gameplay over all in terms of the numbers.

The dev team could come out with such an elaborate explanation, but you know as well as I that it will get boiled down to: lowest common denominator. Saying "button bloat" focuses the inevitable vitriol on them instead of the playerbase.

Of course, this is just my perspective on the matter and I am not stating these things as facts.

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Originally Posted by Soge01

https://imgs.search.brave.com/ye3Ghx...dubG9h/ZC5wbmc

Who the fack did not understand how to play Warrior!? Pardon my language, but you gotta be dam near brain dead to think Warrior's a difficult job class to understand! Jesus christ, lol!

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I mean, you probably weren't here in 2.0 then.


And it is relavent. People keep acting like this is new. It's not. They've simplified and made changes to every job ever since the game came out.


Remember when gierskogul took 10 seconds off blood of the dragon? Man that was fun and engaging...

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I mean, you probably weren't here in 2.0 then.


And it is relavent. People keep acting like this is new. It's not. They've simplified and made changes to every job ever since the game came out.


Remember when gierskogul took 10 seconds off blood of the dragon? Man that was fun and engaging...

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So, I wasn't here in 2.0. But that patch notes are still there. And yeah I did not see anything that you were talking about.

I do remember when gierskogul took 10 seconds off blood of the dragon and it was actually engaging. See at that time the point of blood of the dragon was not to maintain it but to keep it up until blood of the dragon cd reset. The game eventually turned to maintaining blood of the dragon much like enochian.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

With SAM, the addition of a Meikyo charge, Tsubame charge, and cap skills increased SAMs APM from the previous expansion. I haven't taken my SAM into anything significant this expansion, but from my understanding a chief issue was their damage has not been up to par, and if their APM has increased then this makes absolutely no sense. Sure, adding guaranteed crits onto their skills is one way to circumvent the issue, but it doesn't address the higher APM. And as was pointed out before, if no Kaiten is better than a misused Kaiten, then it becomes pretty clear [from a dev's perspective] that the removal of the skill should improve SAM gameplay over all in terms of the numbers.

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Samurai's damage was only low at low. The subsequent buffs in 6.08 brought it back to being the strongest Melee and highest ranked speed kill job once again. It's single-handedly brought Dancer back into the meta. In other words, the job was perfectly fine. I suspect the only reason we're losing Kaiten is due to baby players not pressing it, thus their damage falls behind. Which is rather laughable when you consider inexperienced or outright bad players aren't going to be pressing their buttons properly anyway. At this point, it always seems like the change is an excuse for guaranteed crits to be a thing because "OMG BIG NUMBERS!!!!!"

It's a lazy, poorly thought change meant to simplify for no real benefit.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Remember when gierskogul took 10 seconds off blood of the dragon? Man that was fun and engaging...

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Personally? I always thought it was. You actually had to think about your Geirskogul uses instead of mindlessly pressing them. With the improvements in future expansions, that system would have been fine. Alas, it demanded a far higher skill ceiling because executing Geirskogul willy nilly meant a massive damage loss. So... into the trash bin it went.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Understandable that you feel this way, but it's been happening for years now. The homogenization of jobs, and streamlining their rotations. Just because a job like BLM hasn't been subjected to it in the same manner doesn't make this less true, nor does it make the job exempt from similar treatment in the future.

The thing about button bloat being the reason isn't a lie. But it isn't the entire truth. Fact of the matter is that Kaiten being removed is going to impact how SAM feels because it is a change that directly affects their APM. Consolidating skills like Shoha I/II and/or Guren/Senei does not do this. The higher a job's APM, the more difficult it becomes to play, and play consistently. If you don't want to look at it that way, another way is it becomes much easier to screw up.

With SAM, the addition of a Meikyo charge, Tsubame charge, and cap skills increased SAMs APM from the previous expansion. I haven't taken my SAM into anything significant this expansion, but from my understanding a chief issue was their damage has not been up to par, and if their APM has increased then this makes absolutely no sense. Sure, adding guaranteed crits onto their skills is one way to circumvent the issue, but it doesn't address the higher APM. And as was pointed out before, if no Kaiten is better than a misused Kaiten, then it becomes pretty clear [from a dev's perspective] that the removal of the skill should improve SAM gameplay over all in terms of the numbers.

The dev team could come out with such an elaborate explanation, but you know as well as I that it will get boiled down to: lowest common denominator. Saying "button bloat" focuses the inevitable vitriol on them instead of the playerbase.

Of course, this is just my perspective on the matter and I am not stating these things as facts.

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If it's APM I could imagine other classes being something to look at first.

Job / CPM / Min / Max

NIN / 45.6 / 44.4 / 46.4

MCH / 45.1 / 44.2 / 46.4

BRD / 42.5 / 42.1 / 43.3

SAM / 42.2 / 40.5 /43.2

GNB / 41.5 / 39.7 / 43.9

DRG / 40.9 / 40.3 / 41.8

MNK / 39.8 / 38.8 / 41.3

AST / 38.6 / 35.9 / 40.6

DNC / 38.4 / 36.5 / 40.6

DRK / 37.9 / 36.6 / 39.6

RDM / 36.5 / 35.9 / 37.1

RPR / 36.0 / 35.1 / 36.8

SMN / 35.7 / 33.9 / 37.4

SCH / 35.4 / 33.1 / 38.0

PLD / 34.6 / 33.1 / 36.4

WAR / 34.1 / 32.4 / 35.1

SGE / 33.1 / 31.1 / 35.0

BLM / 32.8 / 32.2 / 34.8

WHM / 31.7 / 30.2 / 34.1

Samurai is almost tied for third.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

If it's APM I could imagine other classes being something to look at first.

Job / CPM / Min / Max

NIN / 45.6 / 44.4 / 46.4

MCH / 45.1 / 44.2 / 46.4

BRD / 42.5 / 42.1 / 43.3

SAM / 42.2 / 40.5 /43.2

GNB / 41.5 / 39.7 / 43.9

DRG / 40.9 / 40.3 / 41.8

MNK / 39.8 / 38.8 / 41.3

AST / 38.6 / 35.9 / 40.6

DNC / 38.4 / 36.5 / 40.6

DRK / 37.9 / 36.6 / 39.6

RDM / 36.5 / 35.9 / 37.1

RPR / 36.0 / 35.1 / 36.8

SMN / 35.7 / 33.9 / 37.4

SCH / 35.4 / 33.1 / 38.0

PLD / 34.6 / 33.1 / 36.4

WAR / 34.1 / 32.4 / 35.1

SGE / 33.1 / 31.1 / 35.0

BLM / 32.8 / 32.2 / 34.8

WHM / 31.7 / 30.2 / 34.1

Samurai is almost tied for third.

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Amusing how one of the most engaging jobs with one of the highest skill ceilings (BLM) has one of the lowest actions per minute.. more buttons does not mean more engaging..