On Venat's Role in the Story

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Originally Posted by TheRod

More or less, same applies here. Though, it wasn't like Yoshida himself didn't in prompto announce the story was going to play like that. From the very first announcement of Endwalker he was very open about it (and I suggest any reader glossing over this post to look for the announcement thread in this very same lore forums) - and to be honest and fair to him, it played exactly like he said it would. Ally that with most classical Final Fantasy themes and we have a very typical game of the series. Yes, some were a bit more grey or darker, but in general, the brand is like that, as we gotta concede.

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Tbh a lot of what Yoshi says rings hollow to me because a lot of what he says nothing comes of it. He had stated numerous times during ShB(presumably in prep for EW) that “no one is safe, none of the scions are safe, just because they have quests locked behind them doesn’t mean they’re safe.” Yet….literally nothing came from that.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Where I feel like I disagree begins on the point of whether or not you think that the Ancients lived a “perfect” life and if you agree with the choices they made. The game spends some time hammering into your head that they weren’t ideal, which starts with the fact that they’re named after characters and places from a 500 year old book called “Utopia” which is itself arguably about how it’s not an ideal place. If after all of that, you think that the Ancients were right, then there’s no amount of discussion about everything that comes after that will convince you otherwise and you’re just searching for a reason to be upset that the writers didn’t agree with you and deliberately misunderstanding things to suit your opinion.

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I don't agree with what 50% of modern day humanity does, so to me it seems odd to be so judgmental of a society that, by comparison, seems to be in a better place than we are.

I also don't believe the Ancients' civilization was close to a point of collapse nor do I believe a regression to one in which things like murder and sexual assault exist is in any way an 'upgrade'. What I wanted to see was the Ancients armed with the knowledge of the Final Days and working together to adjust and adapt to it. I didn't want Zodiark to have to be summoned or sacrifices to be made and I certainly didn't want their civilization destroyed.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

But Hermes' knowledge of Dynamis wasn't even used during the Final Days. And you just previously said that Venat had "plenty of time to think" her way into this misshapen box, but they didn't have "plenty of time" to research Dynamis themselves or trick/convince him to give his knowledge? They only didn't have more time because Venat insisted on sundering the world and destroying their society completely. Again this is the same woman that insists nothing is impossible.

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This isn't true; it's clear Hermes becoming Fandaniel was key to forestalling the Final Days. We're told the Ancients generally don't even know Dynamis is a thing, let alone how it works, yet the Convocation ends up summoning Zodiark to erect the aether-barier to block it out. No one else on the Convocation is making that logical step-through. Once Zodiark is in place, focus shifts from the Final Days to restoring the world back to a utopian state, so having time to find a more permanent solution is meaningless.

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Originally Posted by Mixawaves

This isn't true; it's clear Hermes becoming Fandaniel was key to forestalling the Final Days. We're told the Ancients generally don't even know Dynamis is a thing, let alone how it works, yet the Convocation ends up summoning Zodiark to erect the aether-barier to block it out. No one else on the Convocation is making that logical step-through.

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That's raw supposition though. We have no evidence they ever recognized Dynamis was at play, or what specifically they did with Zodiark. If the aetheric barrier was even intentional, it's a reasonable deduction to attempt to shield the planet from a heretofore unknown threat - Though on this point I will say that in Endwalker, the significant downplaying of Zodiark and the shift from the Sound seemingly coming from beneath the earth to coming from outer space is also some questionable writing.

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Once Zodiark is in place, focus shifts from the Final Days to restoring the world back to a utopian state, so having time to find a more permanent solution is meaningless.

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In what way is it unreasonable to focus on rebuilding and restoration prior to jumping headlong into investigating the threat?

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Originally Posted by Veloran

But Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus open the way out…

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The escape plan only worked due to deception. Hermes would have slowed them down if they all made a break for the exit, not to mention that opening required the total concentration of Emet-Selch to open, Hythlodaeus was utterly incapable of opening the way.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

But she could just tell them and they could arrest Hermes...?

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And then the Convocation would not know how to use Zodiark to hold back dynamis. Remember, the Final Days occurs due to the stagnation of aether currents, especially celestial ones, a topic that Hermes is expert in. As Venat notes, denying the convocation his aid would potentially lead to failure.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

But one of the people we know she trusts the most is on the Convocation.

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And was summarily kicked off it when they dissented.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

But the Ancients COULD interact with Dynamis…

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They explicitly could not. They couldn’t hear Meteion, nor change the Elpis flowers color.

Beings that interact with dynamis have their own feelings, thoughts and desires due to the nature of what dynamis is. You expect a world that repeatedly denigrates and devalues the lives of familiars and creations to be saved by a set of beings made for little more than to bear the weight for the Ancients? They’re to hold onto the song of hope despite the horrors they would witness?

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Originally Posted by Veloran

But why? Why would she think that was necessary…

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The misuse was sacrificing new life simply to bring back those lost. It was an idea born of that unwillingness to accept death, a fact explicitly stated is the cutscene. They quite literally said they would not accept anything less than a “world free from sorrow.”

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Originally Posted by Veloran

But she herself says that she would never choose to flee, and that instead she would devote everything to stopping the threat.

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It was purely a back up plan with the added benefit of further preparing for the journey should that path be followed. She did not want to leave humanity without every possible option thus the moon would be there. “Fly, my children, and never look back.”

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Originally Posted by Veloran

But Hermes' knowledge of Dynamis wasn't even used during the Final Days...

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His knowledge of dynamis and the celestial aether currents were instrumental in responding to the final days and conceiving of Zodiark. The Watcher explains this when he reveals how the Ancients were able to know where the Final Days would strike next. And once again researching dynamis would be incredibly difficult for beings lacking the ability to interact with it. Hermes and WoL were the only two beings we know of to ever effect change on the Elpis flower by dynamis. That’s the whole point of his emotional response to seeing the flower change color. He thought he was alone.

My take on the order of events is something like this.

Timeline
- Elpis events happen with no appearance by the WoL.
- History plays out until Mide travels back in time with Alexander.
- A new timeline is created, where the Hotgo tribe was founded by Mide, further in the past than it originally was.
- History is unchanged enough, so that the events leading to Mide time traveling still happen, and a stable loop is formed.
- History plays out through the 8th Umbral calamity. This timeline continues in "An Unpromised Tomorrow". (Or the version of this timeline where WoL visited Elpis)
- A new timeline is created, and the 8th Calamity is avoided.
- WoL travels back in time to Elpis, and uses that knowledge after returning to the present. The fate of this timeline is unknown. Meteion would not have Venat's tracker.
- A new timeline is created, in which the WoL visited Elpis.
- This timeline plays out almost the same as the original, and a stable time loop is formed.

This way, it allows for time travel rules to remain consistent, and it makes more sense.

Ultimately, it all just requires too big a stretch for me to take it at face value. If we assume that Venat, alone, was capable of creating not only a giant prison to hold Zodiark but a race of bunny people to survive in stasis for thousands of years and a giant spaceship as a back up option, then it stands to reason that if the Ancients had been given a fair chance to absorb the knowledge of the Final Days and respond accordingly, then they would probably be able to accomplish something of note themselves.

Venat simply didn't give them that choice and pretty much embraced a weird suicide cult that she inflicted upon the rest of her people without their consent or permission.

One can also argue that the reason the Sundered even persist is due to the actions of Unsundered beings. Nidhogg would have slain the Warrior of Light if not for the power of his brother's eye. Another example is that the Rejoinings served to further empower and strengthen the Sundered. Had none happened, would the Scions have succeeded? We know, certainly, that Emet-Selch was only bested as a consequence of Ardbert giving the Warrior of Darkness an extra boost at the last possible second.

I think a lot of the awkwardness stems from a desire for the writing team to wash their hands of much of the story elements established thus far, especially the seeds sown as far back as 1.0 and 2.0. We shall have to see where things go next, of course, but in my opinion the finale was rushed and could have been written much more smoothly so that certain characters were handled better than they were.

I guess we'll have to see whether 6.1 and beyond dares to go back and offer further clarification to certain plot points, or if it just leaves things to stand as they are.

Though as someone who was always 'third party' when it came to the Zodiark and Hydaelyn conflict, from where I'm sitting it doesn't look like either side was handled particularly well. In that, I include the middle ground since I know some people were hoping for Zodiark and Hydaelyn to team up in the final stretch and play a part in defeating the cause of the Final Days.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Ultimately, it all just requires too big a stretch for me to take it at face value. If we assume that Venat, alone, was capable of creating not only a giant prison to hold Zodiark but a race of bunny people to survive in stasis for thousands of years and a giant spaceship as a back up option, then it stands to reason that if the Ancients had been given a fair chance to absorb the knowledge of the Final Days and respond accordingly, then they would probably be able to accomplish something of note themselves.

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Not alone, her and all those she could convince. Anyder proves there were others. And they were given a fair chance. The whole point of the scene with Venat was to convince them, an overture that was rejected in favor of “paradise.”

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Venat simply didn't give them that choice and pretty much embraced a weird suicide cult that she inflicted upon the rest of her people without their consent or permission.

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A fact she readily agrees to, but I think we can all agree if the world decides to follow a path to destruction, and bring all life with it, the one whose being selfish isn’t the one trying to stop them.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

One can also argue that the reason the Sundered even persist is due to the actions of Unsundered beings. Nidhogg would have slain the Warrior of Light if not for the power of his brother's eye. Another example is that the Rejoinings served to further empower and strengthen the Sundered. Had none happened, would the Scions have succeeded? We know, certainly, that Emet-Selch was only bested as a consequence of Ardbert giving the Warrior of Darkness an extra boost at the last possible second.

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Yes, unsundered aid was extremely important. The point was never to prove one above the other, but for both to work together out of love for life in the universe.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I think a lot of the awkwardness stems from a desire for the writing team to wash their hands of much of the story elements established thus far, especially the seeds sown as far back as 1.0 and 2.0. We shall have to see where things go next, of course, but in my opinion the finale was rushed and could have been written much more smoothly so that certain characters were handled better than they were.

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It think there’s a difference between answering the questions that were set up for the past 10 years and “washing their hands of it.” I see a lot of love in the plot and a lot of attention paid to making sure things were as consistent as possible. It’s not perfect by any means, but nothing is.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

As for #2, it was an odd choice given that ShB indicated Azem had ghosted Venat in the past after leaving the Convocation. Learning that Venat was their mentor raises even more questions as to Azem's actions. It's possible Azem didn't know what her plan was, but if they did then it seems odd our original incarnation would be opposed to her while the WoL was 100% on board. It's for this reason I wonder if we'll ever see Azem's side of the story and if that's why those plot elements were absent in EW because it would require more contrivances to explain.

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I believe that if the WoL got the chance to visit Amaurot they would team up with Azem and try to find a different solution for at least that timeline. Even if it would end with the WoL forcefully being thrown back to the future and Azem failing. I hope that them not being at Venats side meant that and was not just a dropped storyline.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

This is quite doubtful given that her actions are all incredibly specific. Given her self-stated belief that nothing is impossible, why - Bereft of knowledge of the future - Would she conclude that there was no future for the Ancients, no matter what? Why would she conclude that she must work against the Convocation, rather than with them, without even having any knowledge of Hermes' involvement with Meteion? Can we really say she would have done everything exactly the same, even strange and inexplicable actions like those on the First with Ardbert much later, if she'd had no knowledge of Meteion and the cause of the Final Days at all?

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I agree with you on that point. Some said that most of it would have gone the same if the WoL was not there but I really doubt that. First Venat noticed us the moment we walked out of the room which could mean that she might not even have met Emet and Hythlo without us there since she was probably just curious why someone was walking around with a spell of her.

And without us there explaining everything to them, the three (if they had met) would probably just talk a bit and then go on their seperate ways again, because why should they even suspect Hermes at all? Thus when Meteion received the bad news they could have easily been alone. (I just dont see why without the knowledge that something bad will happen, that they somehow suspect and follow Hermes around or that they question him too much about Meteion)

Without all the information about the future and maybe missing those clues about Meteion would she really come to the conclusion that sundering would be the best option? That she would need to built a moon space ship and rabbit people? That she would gift us the Elpis flower?

If she really found out all of this without us there then she would have been way to powerful and great. And it would beg the question on why she would sent the WoL back into the past. After all she could have simply told us the solution anyway.

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Some more examples with us being in Elpis
- WoL walking with Meteion -> What would have happened without us there? Would Hermes stop the meeting earlier? Would she have to be alone outside?
- WoL noticing the Elpis flower -> This starts a whole discussion about Dynamis. These flowers were kinda no big deal for the Ancients, so would Emet or Hythlo even notice them?
- Wol showing Hermes that others can be sad too (I have no idea if that changes something for him or not)

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

As for #2, it was an odd choice given that ShB indicated Azem had ghosted Venat in the past after leaving the Convocation. Learning that Venat was their mentor raises even more questions as to Azem's actions. It's possible Azem didn't know what her plan was, but if they did then it seems odd our original incarnation would be opposed to her while the WoL was 100% on board. It's for this reason I wonder if we'll ever see Azem's side of the story and if that's why those plot elements were absent in EW because it would require more contrivances to explain.

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It could be something they go over in another "return to the past" type deal, maybe as the newest Trial storyline.