PLD needs an oGCD damage ability for their Oath Gauge

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Sheltron's intended purpose is damage mitigation.

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Intent is a hard thing to prove.

In Stormblood, Sheltron impacted your dps. It gave you back MP (which is damage currency), and could also set you up for a Swipe proc. So players incorporated that into their optimization. The main problem with this design is that it devalued Intervention. I think that if you wanted Shield Swipe to work in this way, you would need to do the following:

Sheltron: Block incoming attacks.
Additional effect: Grants Testudo.
Testudo effect: Action changes from Sheltron to Shield Swipe.

Intervention: Redirect attacks on target to yourself. Block all attacks received in this way.
Additional effect: Grants Testudo.
Testudo effect: Action changes from Intervention to Shield Swipe.

Shield Swipe: Delivers an attack with potency X. Recast 1 min. Ends Testudo.

With this setup, it doesn't matter if you're actively tanking or not, you have opportunities to set-up a counter either way. But there is an expectation that you are actively mitigating for yourself and your co-tank rather than sitting on your cooldowns.

There are two design philosophies that you can take here.
1) Mitigation actions should only be used for the sacred task of reducing incoming damage and staying alive.
2) Mitigation should be fun. It should be part of a tank's damage dealing strategy, and you should want to mitigate more damage to set up more opportunities for counterattacks.

I don't mind which of these you prefer. What I dislike is inconsistency.
'Shield Swipe is no good, mitigation abilities are there to prevent damage and nothing more. Oh, but Vengeance is okay because the damage is oh so very little.'
Right. But if it's so very little, then why is it there? Get rid of it, then. People won't miss it, apparently.

Just be consistent.

I did quickly mention Sb Sheltron, however, surely the fact it went from damage mitigation + MP restore + Sheild Swipe proc to just damage mitigation shows that the intent is for it to be a mitigation skill only.

The problem with your Testudo idea, how do you track the cooldown? You can't track the cooldown of both Sheltron/Shield Swipe or Intervention/Shield Swipe on the same button. Could have a marker on the oath gauge to track it, but it would still need a way to show the cooldown ticking down. But that is a thought.

Also, I would not care if Vengence lost its counter hits at all.

Also, I would disagree with the philosophy that mitigating damage is made more fun when you add in DPS elements. This goes back to DPS > Defence. You are only using the mitigation to get to your DPS ability, it is just an extra step you have to take. You haven't made it more engaging, you have just made a part in your rotation to use it without thought to do more damage.

I would like to see something like those counter attacks/actions on tank stance. e.g. a smol damage dealt reduction effect (like 5% or so) on tank stance - like it used to -, but in exchange you get access to counter (damage) measures like shield swipe, also granting additional enmity. Or defiance grants the vengeance counter effect, but instead of simply reducing damage dealt, it changes FC to Inner Beast, and Decimate to Steel Cyclone.
Tanking will become more active, or least interessting.
Unfortunately, it doesn't change off-tanking gameplay. But it was never really that exciting to begin with...

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

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Not really. They could have been addressing the issue with Intervention and picked the simplest solution. They could have wanted to make the job easier to play. It's all speculation.

There's an incredibly easy way to track the cooldown on Swipe, even if it's hidden from view. You remember the job specific UI system? Just use that.

Counterattacks can't be considered part of a rotation. They're dependent on what the boss is doing. You still use your fight knowledge to determine when to best to mitigate, while simultaneously using it to optimize.

I'm all for an offensive use of sheltron in theory however at that point it means that it would become the only reason to use it.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

I'm all for an offensive use of sheltron in theory however at that point it means that it would become the only reason to use it.

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I'm not seeing how this is a problem. Tanks are just blue DPS at this point anyway. We put just as much effort into fine tuning our numbers as the red boys do, so what harm will giving shelltron some kind of offensive benefit really do?

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

I'm not seeing how this is a problem. Tanks are just blue DPS at this point anyway. We put just as much effort into fine tuning our numbers as the red boys do, so what harm will giving shelltron some kind of offensive benefit really do?

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Force Paladin to be MT in most fights and/or take unnecessary damage or otherwise lose out on dps. Any job with as significant* enough counterattack action will force compositions to cater to them for dps gains. The only real way to balance that is to also give Raw Intuition, TBN and Heart of Stone to include counter attack mechanics than increase dps by equal amounts.

*Vengence's damage is insignificant due to being a lot less than the game's damage variance.

This is incorrect. If Sheltron and Intervention both have the same counterattack proc attached, it doesn't matter who is actively tanking.

And if you don't want Shield Swipe back on PLD, that's fine with me too. They should keep it as the basic tank going forward, because that's what players likely want. I think DRK players, in contrast, would welcome back Reprisal for more counterattack themed gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Force Paladin to be MT in most fights and/or take unnecessary damage or otherwise lose out on dps. Any job with as significant* enough counterattack action will force compositions to cater to them for dps gains. The only real way to balance that is to also give Raw Intuition, TBN and Heart of Stone to include counter attack mechanics than increase dps by equal amounts.

*Vengence's damage is insignificant due to being a lot less than the game's damage variance.

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Honestly it doesn't even need to be significant for me to want it. Like if you tell me that each time I use Sheltron/Intervention correctly I got a free Shield Swipe with a potency of 10, I would still be happy to use it. :p

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Originally Posted by Lyth

This is incorrect. If Sheltron and Intervention both have the same counterattack proc attached, it doesn't matter who is actively tanking.

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Even if both could proc a counterattack you would just get a similar situation to Dark Knight on the JP servers which treats DRK as a MT due to TBN even though it can be used on both the DRK and other targets due to it being much easier to insure that TBN breaks as you don't need to target anyone else.

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And if you don't want Shield Swipe back on PLD, that's fine with me too. They should keep it as the basic tank going forward, because that's what players likely want. I think DRK players, in contrast, would welcome back Reprisal for more counterattack themed gameplay.

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I'm not against counterattack mechanics returning if properly design. I'm just aware of many of the balance issues associated with them in the current game state.

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Originally Posted by Garnix

Honestly it doesn't even need to be significant for me to want it. Like if you tell me that each time I use Sheltron/Intervention correctly I got a free Shield Swipe with a potency of 10, I would still be happy to use it. :p

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No, you wouldn't. You would be complaining about it being a useless action.