Tanks Pulling Trains (Who's Wrong?)

When I read Dohn Mheg, I immediately knew the issue. There are small blue frogs, you'll see one right at the start, it's tethered to an enemy, if the blue frog finishes it cast the tethered enemy gets a big damage buff (each auto seemed to do almost 1/4 unmitigated). Its easy to handle if you're fighting that one group, but it gets dicey when hes pulling to the wall. Once his cds are down, its over if to many enemies are still alive as gcds alone wont keep him alive. Other than that, if the mob doesnt get that damage buff its easy as other wall to wall pulls.

But also what everyone else is asking, tank using cooldowns, dps to low that mobs are all still alive or more than half.

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Originally Posted by Voidedge_Ragna

Cure 2 is never last resort, Cure 2 is the standard healing spell once you get it because its so easy to regain mp as a white mage.

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It is a last resort in OP situation because with many healing tool at that level Cure 2 spam is the last resort.

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Originally Posted by youuugene

When I read Dohn Mheg, I immediately knew the issue. There are small blue frogs, you'll see one right at the start, it's tethered to an enemy, if the blue frog finishes it cast the tethered enemy gets a big damage buff (each auto seemed to do almost 1/4 unmitigated). Its easy to handle if you're fighting that one group, but it gets dicey when hes pulling to the wall. Once his cds are down, its over if to many enemies are still alive as gcds alone wont keep him alive. Other than that, if the mob doesnt get that damage buff its easy as other wall to wall pulls.

But also what everyone else is asking, tank using cooldowns, dps to low that mobs are all still alive or more than half.

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yes, i came here to say this. everyone is giving general advice, but this is specific to dohn meg. bet your tank didn't silence that frog. also, if the tank doesn't know any better, they pop their invuln or strongest cooldowns at the beginning, which is bad. because they won't take any damage for the first 7 seconds (4, 2, 1) of your three holy stuns

Also came here to say this:
Dohn Mheg has a point where the tank or Physical ranged DPS should interrupt the Fauth who is tethering onto other mobs (usually the trees). If the cast is not interrupted, the tethered allies will get a buff that makes their auto attack damage significantly increase. This happens a couple of times in the dungeon, but the Fauth will immediately start casting it, so if the tank doesn't interrupt the cast, then he's partially responsible for messing up the run.

Order of death priority is usually due to:
1. Tank interrupt adds in Dohn Mheg / Ranged DPS interrupt adds
2. Tank mitigation plan / Healer healing plan
3. DPS Damage too low
4. Gear of all party members

For 2.

If the tank rotates his mitigations instead of using all of them at once before the damage hits, then he's probably doing fine. Ideally, he would not be using invuln first since it becomes wasted with Holy's usage as stunning an enemy is the same as not taking damage. Even then though, you shouldn't be going out of mana unless you haven't used Lucid Dreaming at all.

Your healing rotation plan - oGCD usage first (using Asylum, Tetragrammaton, Benediction, Assize first before going to use regen/lilies and then Cure II since the other skills don't cost MP). If a WHM holds off from using their oGCDs first until an emergency happens, they're basically doing what a bad tank would be doing: holding off from using mitigations until their HP is almost gone, and then panic spamming their mitigations to survive without taking into account of future damage.

You should be able to get at least 1 Holy off if the tank uses mitigation even in a big pull before the tank runs out of HP (because if the tank can't survive before the first holy cast, it means he died under 3 seconds and that means something else is the issue here instead of just too much adds since tanks aren't that squishy).

Between the First Holy stun and your next Holy (4 seconds stun), There is time to apply a regen/lily + weave in 1-2 oGCD abilities. This is because holy's stun durations do not overlap. Holy finishes casting in 2.5 seconds, but the actual stun component and damage hits in 3 seconds. That means the first stun doesn't go away within your next GCD since that's in 2.5 seconds. The second and third stun could be chained together though.

If you feel the tank is losing too much HP in the first GCD, you can choose to apply regen/lily -> Swiftcast + Holy -> oGCD healing (Tetragrammaton/Asylum/Benediction).
If you can't get a single Holy off, then either the tank didn't mitigate or the adds didn't get interrupted before then because it means the tank had to die within 3 seconds from 100% HP, which makes them as squishy as a DPS. If that was the case, it's not your fault.

Then comes the DPS damage. If both the tank and healer does everything properly up to this point and you're starting to run low on MP because all your oGCDs are used up and you can only spam Cure II, the problem is the low DPS damage - maybe if someone was single targeting instead of doing their AoE rotation or someone was messing up big time with their damage.

If all of those aren't the issue, then it's gear. Gear is more of a softcap since majority of the dungeons are level synced, and thus can be a softcap on player's skill level. ILV 385 is slightly undergeared since Dohn Mheg drops ILV 400 gear, but it's quite low since ilv385 is lower than Scaevan gear (ILv 390), which is available in the previous expansion and has the same ILV as Holminister Switch. Again, the difference in 5 ILV is not going to kill you since it's not a drastic change in stats like how it was in Bardam's Mettle. From what I understand though, the gear shouldn't be the main issue since ILV 385 is enough to clear Dohn Mheg.

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Originally Posted by youuugene

When I read Dohn Mheg, I immediately knew the issue. There are small blue frogs, you'll see one right at the start, it's tethered to an enemy, if the blue frog finishes it cast the tethered enemy gets a big damage buff (each auto seemed to do almost 1/4 unmitigated).

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Originally Posted by cheolsu

yes, i came here to say this. everyone is giving general advice, but this is specific to dohn meg. bet your tank didn't silence that frog.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Also came here to say this:
Dohn Mheg has a point where the tank or Physical ranged DPS should interrupt the Fauth who is tethering onto other mobs (usually the trees). If the cast is not interrupted, the tethered allies will get a buff that makes their auto attack damage significantly increase.

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All the real ones know and I am quoting them for emphasis as well as to add one more point. There is one mob in particular that has a tankbuster attack. I believe its called straight punch. It will absolutely destroy rookie tanks especially if the Fauths buff spell goes off.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

Much curiosity here but did the Paladin use Hollowed Ground?

I see many many tanks never use their invuln because they are "saving it for emergencies" then end up perishing because apparently that was not an emergency... Especially the fricken Paladin because they have the best invuln in the whoooooole game.

Edit; Nevermind this Mia over here apparently is still bad at the English and also reading comprehension.

Wait wait, wait a dosh garn second! Hollowed then.. Rampart? I hopes it was Hollowed then Rampart not Hollowed plus Rampart. The person above covered most of it, they should not use mitigation during holy stun. They should also be leading with Sentinel not Rampart especially if taking booku damage. Sheltron should be weaved in there too, it is amazing!

You would open with bene as your first ogcd into lily for a double weave tetra plus another thing if you have something to weave. I need to wake up the coffee to blood ratio is too low. Ohhhh also if deeps is low that can really really mess up big pulls and it is not spoken about enough.

Generally if you run through every ogcd on a healer during one single pull something is going wrong in the deeps department.

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You have a lot of good points.

The healing strategies outlined in this thread are mostly best case scenario. The reality of it is more like:

1. You don't have any/all Lily's available (e.g., first pull)
2. You don't have any/other CD's available (because you used them when you had no Lily's)
3. Your tank isn't the only one taking damage (e.g., DPS standing in the fire)
4. You don't have full mana when the fight begins
etc...

I would still then relegate the barometer of whether a tank can handle a pull by whether or not Cure II spam is enough to keep them alive. Because, baring limited mana, that's the only single target healing spell we're guaranteed to have every fight.

Like others had already explained, this is almost definitely caused by multiple factors all at once. Not just a simple "lol haha bad <insert role>".

As a WHM, I'd normally still rotate around my healing abilities until I have to resort in a few Cure IIs. In average runs, the Cure IIs doesn't last long enough from needing 1-3 casts before most of the mobs are already dead.

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Originally Posted by blue_skies

The healing strategies outlined in this thread are mostly best case scenario. The reality of it is more like:

1. You don't have any/all Lily's available (e.g., first pull)
2. You don't have any/other CD's available (because you used them when you had no Lily's)
3. Your tank isn't the only one taking damage (e.g., DPS standing in the fire)
4. You don't have full mana when the fight begins
etc...

I would still then relegate the barometer of whether a tank can handle a pull by whether or not Cure II spam is enough to keep them alive. Because, baring limited mana, that's the only single target healing spell we're guaranteed to have every fight.

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Honestly, assuming that you've exhausted all healing abilities properly while squeezing in Holy as much as possible in beefy pulls such as dohn meg wall pulls, the remaining Cure II spams only serves to prolong the inevitable (your tank's death). Ideally when you begin to resort in Cure II spam, at least a good chunk of mobs' health should already been depleted or preferably dead. If not, well... you've just eliminated one of the unlikely cause: yourself.

Most of my Dohn Meg runs that went downhill are mainly caused by either low overall party dps, or tanks continuously eating bad stuffs like cookies. These are the most generic timelines that I can recall in one of those average runs:
Tagging Dia on as much target as possible while tank is pulling --> Regen+Assize+Benison/Asylum/PoM a few sec before tank make their stop --> Holy spam until stun resist kicks in --> Regen/Solace/Misery+Tetra/Benediction/Asylum depending on how much healing you need & what's available --> More Holy until less than 3 mobs left --> Glares until everything dead. Normally the Cure II spam phase only starts kicking in in 2nd to last phase.

Never had I've been asked to spam Holy though, it's usually the opposite lol (despite nobody in danger of dying, sometimes!).

EDIT: Nobody should ever need to point this, however; if anybody's undergeared, they are partly in wrong too.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

(despite nobody in danger of dying, sometimes!).

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Are...are these parties in danger?

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Are...are these parties in danger?

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Depends on what you meant by danger. I'm referring the dangers more often as unavoidable damage that may kill, something that nobody but the tank will eat in our usual dungeon pulls. Some players may 'hiccup' and take a few, but in general those dangers aren't really much of a threat. Most of time my split second decision in my head would be: "No, they are not in danger, I can continue Holy/<insert whatever damage spell> spams!"

Letting people die isn't something that I like to see happen however. If I see an individual tend to take more unnecessary damage I'd try to restrain myself but not too much as to babysitting-degree of care.

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Originally Posted by cheolsu

yes, i came here to say this. everyone is giving general advice, but this is specific to dohn meg. bet your tank didn't silence that frog. also, if the tank doesn't know any better, they pop their invuln or strongest cooldowns at the beginning, which is bad. because they won't take any damage for the first 7 seconds (4, 2, 1) of your three holy stuns

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I've found that tanks seem to completely forget that both Silence and Stun exist.