How does FF14 compare to WoW? (And other MMOs)

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Well that's the thing isn't it...multiple difficulty modes cater to multiple audiences. Meanwhile some raiders seem to think that the only content that deserves attention is very challenging content. That's a niche in a niche.

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again, pick any FromSoft game. or Cuphead or bonus challenges required for achievements in games like Halo or Hollow Knight or Hades. there are plenty of games that are made to be difficult or the intended/canon difficulty is on the higher end.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

you don't see single player games dedicated to the concept of clearing difficult fights/ bosses? may I introduce you to a little indie developer by the name of FromSoft?

not to mention all the games with punishing difficulty modes.

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No, to the concept of raiding. You don't see games where you gather 39 NPCs and raid a dungeon to clear a boss fight that's mostly platforming mechanics. From what I've seen of Dark Souls, it's one on one fights, which is not really "raiding". Few single players game even let the protagonist play as a healer outside of a classic 3 party RPG.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

again, pick any FromSoft game. or Cuphead or bonus challenges required for achievements in games like Halo or Hollow Knight or Hades. there are plenty of games that are made to be difficult or the intended/canon difficulty is on the higher end.

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The difference with those games is they had that design philosophy from the beginning. WoW devs did not have a "raiders above everything else" from the beginning. It gradually became that way so gradually more and more players began to feel alienated due to this shift in development.

You can't alienate a playerbase you never catered to. This isn't the case for WoW.

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Originally Posted by Edax

No, to the concept of raiding. You don't see games where you gather 39 NPCs and raid a dungeon to clear a boss fight that's mostly platforming mechanics. From what I've seen of Dark Souls, it's one on one fights, which is not really "raiding". Few single players game even let the protagonist play as a healer.

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I'm sorry your issue is that single player games don't typically have cooperative play with large amounts of other players? because that doesn't really make much sense. the closest thing I can think of to that is the shin megami tensei games until P3Portable or like a Hyrule Warriors and Fire Emblem styles of game. most people when they think of raiding in the single player sense is literally raiding or storming a fortress or castle type environment defeating bosses along the way until you reach an end goal (e.g. castlevania or like the tail end of a Zelda game).

most final fantasy games and rpg games in general have a healer option for the player character especially tactical games like fire emblem.

I'd also argue that 14 raiding doesn't really have platforming mechanics beyond you can fall off the stage. but thats beside the point.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

The difference with those games is they had that design philosophy from the beginning. WoW devs did not have a "raiders above everything else" from the beginning. It gradually became that way so gradually more and more players began to feel alienated due to this shift in development.

You can't alienate a playerbase you never catered to. This isn't the case for WoW.

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the initial comment i replied to was that raiding does not seem like a good game concept and that it was not seen in single player games. nothing in that comment or my comment was about alienating a player base or a shift in design philosophy.

my point was that that design philosophy most definitely does exist in single player games.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

the initial comment i replied to was that raiding does not seem like a good game concept and that it was not seen in single player games. nothing in that comment or my comment was about alienating a player base or a shift in design philosophy.

my point was that that design philosophy most definitely does exist in single player games.

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Oh yea it absolutely does and I'm glad games like this exist. More choice is always better. There are many types of gamers and sometimes a person may want a challenge one day and something chill the next. I'm just saying in the case of WoW their design philosophy shifted in a way that a large number of players who used to feel the game had content for them now feel that Blizzard don't think they're worth their attention. This is when focusing too much on a niche can be bad.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

I'm sorry your issue is that single player games don't typically have cooperative play with large amounts of other players? because that doesn't really make much sense. the closest thing I can think of to that is the shin megami tensei games until P3Portable or like a Hyrule Warriors and Fire Emblem styles of game. most people when they think of raiding in the single player sense is literally raiding or storming a fortress or castle type environment defeating bosses along the way until you reach an end goal (e.g. castlevania or like the tail end of a Zelda game).

most final fantasy games and rpg games in general have a healer option for the player character especially tactical games like fire emblem.

I'd also argue that 14 raiding doesn't really have platforming mechanics beyond you can fall off the stage. but thats beside the point.

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Team deathmatch is cooperative play and it exists in many games with many other entities, single player as well. Raiding however, is a very niche, which I pin down to not being a really great "game" concept.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

most final fantasy games and rpg games in general have a healer option for the player character especially tactical games like fire emblem.

I'd also argue that 14 raiding doesn't really have platforming mechanics beyond you can fall off the stage. but thats beside the point.

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Fire Emblem doesn't have raiding. You don't spend boss fights trying to not stand in the fire.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Fire Emblem doesn't have raiding. You don't spend boss fights trying to not stand in the fire.

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yes you do? literally boss fights can and will change the battlefield throughout the encounter (ranging from traps to literal enemy fire) and if you leave troops in the wrong spots they will take environmental damage and die.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

yes you do? literally boss fights can and will change the battlefield throughout the encounter (ranging from traps to literal enemy fire) and if you leave troops in the wrong spots they will take environmental damage and die.

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I can't recall a boss doing that.

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Originally Posted by Edax

I can't recall a boss doing that.

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https://fireemblemwiki.org/wiki/Hazards