Elemental Wheel, What's the point?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No, it's not. Try using it on air elementals. It sucks. Ice is best, the only problem is there's no combo on ice spells and you don't have as many of them.

No, they don't need to get rid of it.

As it is now, it's not really an issue at all in the first place. you have three elements, at least one of them is going to be effective. Even in your star example, WoW, not every class has every element in damage.

Look, SE made FFXI- the land of "s**t's situational." The same thing pretty much applies here. Not every class is the best at everything, and there's nothing wrong with that. Just because *you* personally don't like something, doesn't automatically make it badly designed or mean everyone else has a problem with it.

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The thunder combo adds M.attack so much to the point that you can stack INT and rely on BRD for M.acc. You can blow away most mobs with the thunder combo easy. The fire combo doesn't even match up to the thunder combo's damage really (Obviously not ice either), the only benefit being AoE.

There need's to be some balancing somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Firon

@ Duelle everything you said is how i feel this is why on WoW rift Aion and other games you can play any content with your class w/o some stupid element hampering your class choice. If fire was not effective in CC/AV noone would use blm it would be a wasted slot. People need to let go of these outdated idea's that don't work well in certain games and a mmo is one of them.

Ele weakness is another reason why most ppl avoided fighting anything in xi that was not weak to Thunder/ice or neutral vs it.

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Practically every game has elements, even WoW. I don't even know what you're talking about anymore.

This whole thread is just one long QQ from you about not being able to do anything and everything 100% equally to every other class in the game. Call it whatever the hell you want, but there's no point in having classes if they all perform exactly the same.

"Whatever class I'm playing, it has to be the best for everything and I will complain if it's not!"

Strengths and weaknesses define each class and make each class unique in more ways than just the visual effect that goes off when you click a button. If you can't accept this, than MMORPGs, or even any RPG pretty much, isn't for you.

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The fire combo doesn't even match up to the thunder combo's damage really

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Fire is AoE, and should be used for AoE. when you do this, the total damage is far greater. I don't know about you, but my firaga and flare both WRECK non-water based mobs.

Also, thunder resistant mobs don't just resist the spells, they take less damage from them period. whether I get a "resist" message or not, the damage is lower than when I use thunder on a water elemental or an orobon or something. Stacking stats might overpower this, but the same is true for your other spells and the appropriate element is still likely to be more effective with those same stats. Now, i'm not saying we're in a perfect situation here, but I can guarantee you, the solution to the balance issue certainly isn't eliminating elements or making all spells identical except for their element. If we do go along with what you say, then element needs to matter more, not less and missing spells need to be put in the game (e.g. the Water line, and Blizzaga), and the extra effects of the spells and combos may need a looking-at.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Look, SE made FFXI- the land of "s**t's situational."

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Indeed, and it was a terrible approach between inventory bloat created by "situational" gear and encouraging jobism. The bad needs to not be in this game, and those two are first on that list.

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The same thing pretty much applies here. Not every class is the best at everything, and there's nothing wrong with that. Just because *you* personally don't like something, doesn't automatically make it badly designed or mean everyone else has a problem with it.

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In a game where you have more than one class/job, designing things to exclude some of the jobs/classes is a bad idea. People are bound to get mad about it. Now why you want to see something that is bound to anger someone exist is beyond me.

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"Whatever class I'm playing, it has to be the best for everything and I will complain if it's not!"

Strengths and weaknesses define each class and make each class unique in more ways than just the visual effect that goes off when you click a button. If you can't accept this, than MMORPGs, or even any RPG pretty much, isn't for you.

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More like you're putting too much stock in elements that are detriments to gameplay. Going back to my example of the guy that likes playing DRG, he has every right to attend every event as DRG and kill bosses as DRG if he likes the job enough. Design and class dynamics should never force him to change to another class/job midway just because it's better/more efficient/less gimp/whathaveyou. Contrary to your attempted argument earlier, making a job useless for events or bosses puts the existence of that very job in question. It also reduces said class/job to fluff. This is the garbage we saw in FFXI where WAR, NIN, MNK, SAM and DRK were the tier 1 jobs and everyone else was just not event worthy. Abyssea made it worse when all red procs could be covered by WAR and NIN.

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In a game where you have more than one class/job, designing things to exclude some of the jobs/classes is a bad idea.

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No, it's not a bad idea, as long as there is content for every job and the amount of which is balanced.

There will be no thought process to forming a party, and nothing interesting about being in one, if you can randomly invite people regardless of job and beat the content. There has to be pros and cons to having each class. Otherwise the game becomes completely uninteresting because none of your choices matter.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Practically every game has elements, even WoW. I don't even know what you're talking about anymore.

This whole thread is just one long QQ from you about not being able to do anything and everything 100% equally to every other class in the game. Call it whatever the hell you want, but there's no point in having classes if they all perform exactly the same.

"Whatever class I'm playing, it has to be the best for everything and I will complain if it's not!"

Strengths and weaknesses define each class and make each class unique in more ways than just the visual effect that goes off when you click a button. If you can't accept this, than MMORPGs, or even any RPG pretty much, isn't for you.

Fire is AoE, and should be used for AoE. when you do this, the total damage is far greater. I don't know about you, but my firaga and flare both WRECK non-water based mobs.

Also, thunder resistant mobs don't just resist the spells, they take less damage from them period. whether I get a "resist" message or not, the damage is lower than when I use thunder on a water elemental or an orobon or something. Stacking stats might overpower this, but the same is true for your other spells and the appropriate element is still likely to be more effective with those same stats. Now, i'm not saying we're in a perfect situation here, but I can guarantee you, the solution to the balance issue certainly isn't eliminating elements or making all spells identical except for their element. If we do go along with what you say, then element needs to matter more, not less and missing spells need to be put in the game (e.g. the Water line, and Blizzaga), and the extra effects of the spells and combos may need a looking-at.

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So basically what your saying no one should be able to play 1 class for every content? Yes i know wow has ele spells i never said remove ele spells or the weakness chart completely i said get rid of it off the trash mobs.

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So basically what your saying no one should be able to play 1 class for every content?

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Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying.

Why? Here's why.

FFXIV (and FFXIV before it) were BASED ON AND BUILT AROUND the concept of switching classes. This isn't like WoW where one character = one class. This is a CORE SYSTEM of the game. If you don't like it, then this game isn't for you. That's all there is to it.

One character is not only able to play and be multiple classes, they are encouraged and expected to. I am TOTALLY FINE that I can't perform equally on every single piece of content in the game on BLM/THM. For when BLM is not the best option, one of your other classes is. Content is designed and balanced with the understanding that the class switching system exists.

You need to get the single class design of other games out of your head. This game is NOT BUILT that way. Yes, you can specialize in a certain class, and be practiced and skilled at that class more than the others, if you want. But that doesn't mean that you should just ignore the rest of the armory system. That's just being intentionally defiant.

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Yes i know wow has ele spells i never said remove ele spells or the weakness chart completely i said get rid of it off the trash mobs.

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your complaint doesn't even make much sense at this point- Anything that could be considered "trash mobs," resistance doesn't really play much of a role. I can't think of any "trash mob" that can only be taken down by certain classes or certain elements. I don't know one trash mob in the game that has a total immunity to a certain element- As one of the other posters above pointed out, you can overpower resistances on mobs like this.

To tell you the truth, the fact that you need others to cover your weakness just remember me a lot more to the old FF you now, its kind of a good and nostagic feeling and I see no reason to change it.

But, the fact is, we have classes, and they are no where near to be weaker thant jobs, just less specialiced. And using classes you can be THM with ALL the elements or CJN with all of them.

WHM and BLM in FXIV are just made like they counterpart in FFIII. Maybe this decisions was made so CJN and THM wouldnt be one superior to the others, and both needed in fights. In fact, maybe even WHM should cast their offensive spell more often in battles where the have element adventage. It would add more deep to the class and making them more important and fun to play in some battle, but they will never overcome BLM in raw power and WHM would cast offensive spells just when needed.

But I deviated to much of the topic and I beg pardon for that.
I must disagree with you OP. Infact, I would like more complexity added to the wheel, a little like FFX, having monster nullfies, absorb, reduces the element damage or be weaks againts it, and not just one elements, they should have all elements in account. A boss or monster with total elemental resistence or right away inmunity, with crazy defense but low HP who need to be attacked with non-elemental spell like Holy or whatever non-elemental spell BLM have or could have in the future would be a new challenge to add, or a monster which need to be attacked with the right element to low they, otherwise imprenetable defenses so physical DD can kill it the possibilities are endless !.

The only thing that really anoy me is the lack of the water element. I make a theory about it but it still anoy me a lot >_<.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No, it's not a bad idea, as long as there is content for every job and the amount of which is balanced.

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You mean like Campaign and Beseiged were "content" for the non-tier 1 jobs? Or maybe HELM or trading in cabbages for fame? That's as good as being spit in the face. I'm sure if your favorite class/job was reduced to fluff you'd be real happy and saying "thank you sir, may I have another".

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There will be no thought process to forming a party, and nothing interesting about being in one, if you can randomly invite people regardless of job and beat the content.

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Tank, heals, DPS. That's what needs to be filled. Who fills those roles should not matter. If we had Green Mage and White Mage as viable healers, and Green Mage happened to be logged on then Green Mage should get the spot, not ignoring Green Mage and waiting for a White Mage to log on. If Paladin, Warrior and Samurai were viable tanks, and Paladin happened to be on while the other two weren't, then Paladin should get the slot, not sitting the PLD and waiting for a WAR or SAM to log on. If Dragoon, Monk, Ranger, Black Mage and Red Mage(!) were viable for DPS, then any of them should be eligible to join the party.

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There has to be pros and cons to having each class. Otherwise the game becomes completely uninteresting because none of your choices matter.

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Choices still matter. You just don't get the short end of the stick if you happen to like what in FFXI would be the "wrong" class/job.

Someone did the math: Not going to look for it but basically the Thunder -> Thundara combo adds 700 Magic attk. Which is why you can stack INT and why Thundeha doesn't do a whole lot more than Thundara.

Even on an elemental resistant mob to thundara, 700 Magic attack from a single combo is stupid high.

This is why BLM only spam Thunder -> Thundara while Thundaga is a waste of MP.

It's broken and needs to be fixed.

Never mind the fact that AoE jobs currently have the upper hand on melee jobs, not counting monk.

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You mean like Campaign and Beseiged were "content" for the non-tier 1 jobs? Or maybe HELM or trading in cabbages for fame? That's as good as being spit in the face. I'm sure if your favorite class/job was reduced to fluff you'd be real happy and saying "thank you sir, may I have another".

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No, I don't mean "like <insert unrelated irrelevant stuff from ANOTHER GAME here>" What are you talking about?

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Tank, heals, DPS. That's what needs to be filled. Who fills those roles should not matter.

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Alright then. Let's remove all but three classes from the game, and name them "tank", "healer" and "DPS." Or, we can keep the uniqueness and distincitveness of each class, and make party formation less of a mindlessly simple endeavor. Like how archers do damage from the back and are more vulnerable and lancers are closer up and a little sturdier.

If you want a simple game, go find a simple game, while the rest of us who like a deep class system where every class has its own strengths and weaknesses can keep it.

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Someone did the math: Not going to look for it but basically the Thunder -> Thundara combo adds 700 Magic attk. Which is why you can stack INT and why Thundeha doesn't do a whole lot more than Thundara.

Even on an elemental resistant mob to thundara, 700 Magic attack from a single combo is stupid high.

This is why BLM only spam Thunder -> Thundara while Thundaga is a waste of MP.

It's broken and needs to be fixed.

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now this is a more meaningful post, which explains the problem they see and identifies what needs to be fixed.

The game can be balanced without making all classes the same, removing elements or taking any kind of wild mechanic-destroying action. Instead, the actual balance problems need to be addressed.

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You just don't get the short end of the stick if you happen to like what in FFXI would be the "wrong" class/job.

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The only reason you were ever on the "wrong job" was because of balance issues. These balance issues have nothing to do with elements- just because this or that thing was too strong or not strong enough and SE took forever to address those kinds of problems. Of course, the balance wasn't really as bad as some players would lead you to believe, and I"ve cleared plenty of content on several of those "wrong" jobs in that game.