Final Fantasy XIV’s healer problem and how it’s kind of unsolvable

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

I'm aware of the quote, but actual statistics prove it wrong. Maybe back when the quote came out, 5 years ago, it was correct, but it is literally no longer the case. Even in current Shiva, you need around 85-86k rDPS to clear e8s, running with the 4 best DPS and 2 best tanks in the world, all bis, all playing perfectly, you'd be just shy of making that check, you would hit enraged if healers did not DPS. Maybe you would make it if you got super lucky on crits/direct hits/crit direct hits, you might be able to JUST squeak by. There is no conceivable way that the fight was not intended to have healers DPS, regardless of what Yoshi-P says

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Also this. I love your signature, by the way.

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Originally Posted by Videra

Also this. I love your signature, by the way.

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Thank you!

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

Snip...

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I assure you, your feedback is appreciated.

As you are undoubtedly aware, this role is difficult for the devs to address to say the least. Something I will address from your post is where data does not reflect reality. This is partially true, as data can only be as accurate as the sources that provide for it. You and I are of a similar mindset, and usually when data is thrown in my face, my response echos yours and I will often say that data is but one of several sources to ascertain what is truly going on in the game.

A big problem is there are just too many voices. You know when there is a large gathering of players in the game, it tosses in some crowd audio to mimic a bunch of conversations all going on at once? You can't tell what anyone is saying, but you know people are talking. This is what the devs hear. I feel a big part of the problem for SE is I don't think they have anyone on the inside that can truly represent the healer community. Someone to process all the feedback and present in a way that is constructive for the dev team. It wouldn't even surprise me if it is a task that intimidates anyone who gets anywhere close to it.

I admire your open mind in your approach to the matter. Always remember that these are discussion forums first. You can always trust a forum to be a forum.

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Originally Posted by Videra

You're allowed to criticize an artist even if you cannot make the same art he does. Also, you cannot take a statement made in 2015 which has been PROVEN wrong into account for this. Things have changed, and you can quite easily see the fact that healer DPS is factored into content by simply looking at FFLogs. Check any week one Shiva log, and you will plainly see a wealth of information pointing to the simple fact that healer DPS was required. End of.

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Sure I can. I can continue to do this until someone provides a link to a source where the devs made the decision to change this. You can post fflogs all day. None of them are an official statement from the dev team that they have reversed their decision. As I said before, it is what it is. You lot need to understand, my agrument isn't that healer DPS isn't required to clear savage, so you can honestly miss me with that nonsense. My argument is that the devs stated that healer DPS is not factored into DPS checks. This is a fact, not an opinion, and I provided the source. It could have been made in 2011 and it still would be true.

Now, if this is no longer the case, and the devs did indeed start factoring healer DPS into the DPS checks, feel free to provide the source link. If you can do so, then it will effectively invalidate the previous links. Quite honestly though, I grew sick of this argument back in 2015; it actually doesn't have a whole lot of relevance anymore because healers actively DPS now, and the problem back then was them not doing it. Your precious fflogs should be a testament to that, if a testament to anything. Do the devs even use that data for anything?

I would much rather get back to the crux of the healer problem which is our downtime. Anyone else?

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I assure you, your feedback is appreciated.

As you are undoubtedly aware, this role is difficult for the devs to address to say the least. Something I will address from your post is where data does not reflect reality. This is partially true, as data can only be as accurate as the sources that provide for it. You and I are of a similar mindset, and usually when data is thrown in my face, my response echos yours and I will often say that data is but one of several sources to ascertain what is truly going on in the game.

A big problem is there are just too many voices. You know when there is a large gathering of players in the game, it tosses in some crowd audio to mimic a bunch of conversations all going on at once? You can't tell what anyone is saying, but you know people are talking. This is what the devs hear. I feel a big part of the problem for SE is I don't think they have anyone on the inside that can truly represent the healer community. Someone to process all the feedback and present in a way that is constructive for the dev team. It wouldn't even surprise me if it is a task that intimidates anyone who gets anywhere close to it.

I admire your open mind in your approach to the matter. Always remember that these are discussion forums first. You can always trust a forum to be a forum.

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I forget the exact number but a while ago a poster named Sebazy looked at the credits and postulated that there are only 4 people responsible for class design (and one manager).

As for the too many voices: There have been countless threads offering feedback that got into the HUNDREDS of pages and not a single response from the development team.

They simply don't come here (hardly) as far as I can see.

4.0 WHM Feedback 356 pages

My own healer DPS thread from way back in 2017 111 pages

And that's just a sampling.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Yep, saw someone say this once and I 100% agree with it. Healers are the only role in the game punished with worse gameplay for playing their role well / efficiently.

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Healers 100% need something besides healing to do in order to scale properly with content. I wouldn't mind the role taking on more of a support role, where we cast buffs on our allies during our downtime, but the most important thing is for it to be fun. As it stands now the stronger we get the more downtime we have and, since our dps kit was simplified to an absurd degree, the more boring it becomes. Repeatedly casting a single spell except for a dot twice a minute is mind numbing.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

I forget the exact number but a while ago a poster named Sebazy looked at the credits and postulated that there are only 4 people responsible for class design (and one manager).

As for the too many voices: There have been countless threads offering feedback that got into the HUNDREDS of pages and not a single response from the development team.

They simply don't come here (hardly) as far as I can see.

4.0 WHM Feedback 356 pages

My own healer DPS thread from way back in 2017 111 pages

And that's just a sampling.

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I remember commenting on this as well. Sebazzy is correct, there are only 4 people on the battle team, which would explain the hubris and unwillingness to change the healer role. It's very clear which roles and jobs they themselves actually play, as those are the most finely tuned and well recieved.

Maybe healers should get OCDs that boost DPS like what Bards had, I know my healing noob is showing, I'm currently leveling White Mage as my first healing job after years of avoiding healing due to the toxicity from bads, but I wish we had a little more something we can use in eight man content.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

I forget the exact number but a while ago a poster named Sebazy looked at the credits and postulated that there are only 4 people responsible for class design (and one manager).

As for the too many voices: There have been countless threads offering feedback that got into the HUNDREDS of pages and not a single response from the development team.

They simply don't come here (hardly) as far as I can see.

4.0 WHM Feedback 356 pages

My own healer DPS thread from way back in 2017 111 pages

And that's just a sampling.

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You are indeed correct. However, it reiterates what I've already been saying: Whether it is three, four, or twenty, there isn't anyone on the dev team to represent the healer community. Many of us, myself included, feel neglected when it comes to our healer woes. It is one of the few commonalities shared among a divided healer community.

I do remember those threads, and I believe I participated in them. If you were a dev who couldn't read or speak English, would you have 467 pages translated and wade through it all? I doubt the devs have time for that. We also recently learned that the Japanese community is discontent with healer design and changes as well, and it is also highly unlikely that those threads reach the devs ears either. For all we know, their attitude could be complacent, or highly concerned, but it is a very safe assumption that they know many of us are not happy.

I know that if I was a dev, I wouldn't go to the forums looking for feedback. I would want it to come from a reliable and trusted source who does go to the forums, reddit, and everywhere to and fro to ascertain data directly from the community. And that's IF I wanted it. However, in the case of healing, I feel we are at a point where this information is necessitated in order to move forward with PvE design for 6.0 and how those changes affect the previous expansions. As the more expansions that are released, the less likely this will ever be addressed properly.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I never said tunnel vision is a design issue. Read my posts again, and if I need to clear something up, I am more than happy to. But stop twisting my words around to make your own point. There is no strawman here my friend. If you don't think this is an issue then I invite you to talk to tanks who are still around from 2.x to SB, and ask them how crazy their healers drove them. It's not as bad now, and the removal of Stance Dancing for healers is a big reason why.

Also don't compare tunnel visioning to brain farts from a DPS role. Players don't die when a DPS misses or uses the wrong GCD.

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So hostile. You said it is an issue, I said it's not one that should affect job design by dumbing them down, that's all. It's an issue that players can overcome on their own. Unless the job mechanics are messy and confusing for no reason; there's an extremely blurry line between streamlining and dumbing something down, and of course different players have different opinions, can't please everyone. But if as you say healer dps isn't taken into account for encounter design then from a balance standpoint it shouldn't matter how complex healer dps is so long as it doesn't get in the way of healing (like stances did).

Also players do die when mechanics are missed due to tunnel vision regardless of role. Same problem, many different possible outcomes, same solution (practice).