Red Mage "better"??

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

It's honestly fine just because the ceiling (BLM and MNK*) stayed the same. They pulled the floor up closer to the ceiling, and that's one of the two things that needed to happen.

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I agree to a certain extent (and I hope you're right). But the overall concern is this:
"Did they pull the floor up high enough?"

I hope they did, but... RDM is competing with SMN and BLM. And SMN also got some meaningful changes, and BLM was a literal monster lol.

Either way I suppose we'll see on Monday. I'm pessimistic but hopeful.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Dragoon was buffed for a single reason: they don't want to nerf Monk.

Both Samurai and Ninja have increased potencies baked into their respective changes. Thus, if they did nothing to Dragoon, it would linger behind. The buffs aren't even that substantial; netting roughly a 1% increase give or take. It'll basically keep Dragoon fighting with Ninja.

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Yeah.

OT here, but It's funny... In some of the DRG groups I'm in, players are mad they didn't get more buffs (I've seen some literally saying DRG was nerfed lol) because now they're afraid they'll be behind everyone else. On the other hand, I've seen SAM players really upset we got buffs. Meanwhile I'm just sad we didn't get Stardiver animation-lock adjustments lol.

Imo it's just a sign that people aren't really sure how melee will shake out.

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Originally Posted by Leidiriv

It's not being intentionally obtuse to separate gameplay from cinematics. If the dev intention was truly that we should dash > melee > Displacement/Engagement > use finishers, they would have linked the skills together mechanically. Since they didn't, we can assume they intended for us to use the skills more freely than that.

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It's not about cinematics. As was stated, there's a reason things like Manafication reset the Cooldown of Corps-a-Corps. They INTENDED red mage to cast spells at a reasonable distance, dash in for the melee combo, dash out to return to slinging spells. This is not what all players do. There are fights where it makes more sense to use these skills for movement during certain phases, there are fights where some players choose to just use them as soon as they come off of cooldown. But this does not change the way that the skills were designed to be used. This is shown with how Alisae plays in Trust dungeons and how red mage plays in all of the job action trailers.

So my point stands. For those who chose to use the movement skills primarily to work with the natural flow of the job rather than spamming them like you would Flèche or Contre Sixte, then the fact that changes to Manafication likely will mean red mage generates black and white mana at an accelerated rate while not changing the cooldown of the movement skills for the melee rotation seems a pretty massive oversight.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

It's not about cinematics. As was stated, there's a reason things like Manafication reset the Cooldown of Corps-a-Corps. They INTENDED red mage to cast spells at a reasonable distance, dash in for the melee combo, dash out to return to slinging spells.

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If this was the intention, dead zones would have been implemented. An actual incentive for the player to move and position in such a way; "if <15y distance, Veraero does 280 potency instead of 310" as an exaggerated example. Instead we have two damaging cooldowns that, as you yourself lament, are not aligned with our melee combos. In the same expansion they introduced Displacement they took the damage off of Bard's jumpback attack too.

I can also make the argument and observation that Manafication resetting CaC means we have some leeway on the cooldown and don't have to pop it exactly on cooldown--we can meander a second or two and the reset will cover us. This forgiveness on the cooldown that Manafication gives is the leeway that makes us not need charges on the abilities, it's just not as evident.

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This is shown with how Alisae plays in Trust dungeons

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In the trust dungeons where NPCs are basically intentionally playing wrong so that they don't overtake actual players and make DF take too long. She's not even playing to what an optimally programmed RDM could be.

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and how red mage plays in all of the job action trailers.

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Where all jobs are shown kinda wonky cuz they just wanna show off the cool looking abilities.

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So my point stands. For those who chose to use the movement skills primarily to work with the natural flow of the job rather than spamming them like you would Flèche or Contre Sixte, then the fact that changes to Manafication likely will mean red mage generates black and white mana at an accelerated rate while not changing the cooldown of the movement skills for the melee rotation seems a pretty massive oversight.

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One could also argue that the changes they're making that push further away from this concept might be evidence that it is, in fact, not developer intent that they be used solely for distance shifting.

Hey guys, what's going on in this thread?

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They INTENDED red mage to cast spells at a reasonable distance, dash in for the melee combo, dash out to return to slinging spells.

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Oh.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

This is shown with how Alisae plays in Trust dungeons and how red mage plays in all of the job action trailers.

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The job action trailer also shows the BLM using freeze to change to UI on single target. It also shows the AST not using malefic to weaving oGCDs. It also shows the NIN using kass on a GCD to use goka on a single target.

My point is, the trailers are to showcase new skills. Not to show you the rotation.

And why would you ever base your rotation off what an npc is doing? Last I checked Ryne has a 20s trick that she only does once per mob pack, Alphinaud has a carbuncle despite having a scholar kit, and AST Urianger can cast Doom. They are not good references.

My point is not discussing optimal play. I stated this already. It's what is obvious as developer intent.

We already know that players don't always use skills as developers intended them to be used (see also Anatman) because sometimes using a skill in an unintended way causes higher damage. I'm not debating if using the skills immediately on cooldown is the better usage or not. I'm strictly discussing the skill as it pertains to your casual player who reads these movement skills, saw the way they're used multiple times by NPCs in game and in the job reveal trailer, and follows that basic instruction of how to play the job. When that player generates black and white mana faster than the cooldown of the movement skills that bring the player into range to perform a melee combo and jump back to get out of range, then that player will feel like the job doesn't play correctly.

I can not be any more clear in what point I'm trying to make. Not the player in Ultimate raiding who needs to squeeze every bit of damage from the job and optimize it perfectly. The more typical player.

But since making that point seems to be akin to smashing my head into a brick wall... I think I might just go do that for a while instead.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

My point is not discussing optimal play. I stated this already. It's what is obvious as developer intent.

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People are responding that as much evidence as you have that this is "developer intent," there is evidence against that. Whenever players drift too far from intent the skill gets changed, I'll point you to your own Anatman and its GCD change; deadzones for Red Mage aren't implemented so there's no encouragement to ever be far from the boss in the first place; the cooldowns do damage compared to Repelling Shot which, in the expansion Red Mage was introduced, had its damage stripped away. The changes that are being made to RDM as it is promote even further that CaC and Displacement are not meant to only be used for the melee combo. Scorch itself sped the process to getting to the next melee combo well beyond what CaC+Displacement can align with naturally.

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I can not be any more clear in what point I'm trying to make. Not the player in Ultimate raiding who needs to squeeze every bit of damage from the job and optimize it perfectly. The more typical player.

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No, you're talking developer intent. You're saying "The developers intended CaC+Displacement to be used exactly this way, because of reason X." You've since dug your heels in that X is correct, when the reasons (at least I) disagree with you are Y and Z. If the developers really intended RDM to play like you've stated, they've done virtually nothing to encourage that playstyle, but rather they've done much to the contrary. Let's say for the sake of argument that Job trailers are indeed how jobs are meant to be played (see Aeos' post for why that would be silly); fine that's all well and good. They haven't done any of the legwork to encourage players to actually play that way.

There's no reason to be out of melee range as a RDM 90% of the time, and to top it off CaC and Displacement do damage. It doesn't take a particularly inquisitive mind to then put two and two together and figure out to use Displacement and Engagement as damaging oGCDs. We can also mention being obnoxiously far is more of an annoyance to the healers than anything else. They've made no changes to CaC and Displacement to discourage using them as damaging oGCDs; in fact, they've gone the opposite direction by buffing Displacement to 200 potency and granting Engagement as a safety net. They continue going in the opposite direction, as your complaint from the beginning was, by increasing mana gen without regard for the cooldowns of Displace and CaC.

If it was really their intent for RDM to play exactly as you say, why do so many of their decisions in its design show otherwise?

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Originally Posted by wereotter

My point is not discussing optimal play. I stated this already. It's what is obvious as developer intent.

We already know that players don't always use skills as developers intended them to be used (see also Anatman) because sometimes using a skill in an unintended way causes higher damage. I'm not debating if using the skills immediately on cooldown is the better usage or not. I'm strictly discussing the skill as it pertains to your casual player who reads these movement skills, saw the way they're used multiple times by NPCs in game and in the job reveal trailer, and follows that basic instruction of how to play the job. When that player generates black and white mana faster than the cooldown of the movement skills that bring the player into range to perform a melee combo and jump back to get out of range, then that player will feel like the job doesn't play correctly.

I can not be any more clear in what point I'm trying to make. Not the player in Ultimate raiding who needs to squeeze every bit of damage from the job and optimize it perfectly. The more typical player.

But since making that point seems to be akin to smashing my head into a brick wall... I think I might just go do that for a while instead.

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Okay, players use skills in unintended ways. But how many of those uses have remained in the game unchanged? Prepull Huton? Made more accessible. Prepull dual Aetherflow? Gone, reduced to atoms. In-fight Anatman, Meditation fishing, Tornado Kick, 2 melee/2 phys ranged in HW, the 4.0 mana imbalance glitch that also cut mana spending to 1/3. All of them gone. But SE has left CaC and Displacement alone, which implies that they intend it as is.

As for the typical player, new players are normally inclined to move when they can anyway, so the bit of movement they're encouraged to do via Dualcast (also thanks to NPCs, mind you) covers what happens while CaC is on cooldown.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

When that player generates black and white mana faster than the cooldown of the movement skills that bring the player into range to perform a melee combo and jump back to get out of range, then that player will feel like the job doesn't play correctly.

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Maybe, maybe not. Such a thing could most definitely happen. If a new player were to encounter such a problem, perhaps they would do some research into why this is happening and what they could do instead.
If the player does not care, well then, the problem has solved itself.

It sounds an awful lot like you’re trying to project your dissatisfaction of RDM onto a part of the community that doesn’t find this a problem.

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Originally Posted by Aeos

My point is, the trailers are to showcase new skills. Not to show you the rotation.

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In most cases, the trailers are also supposed to give you an idea of what the job is capable of, especially when it's a new job added to the game. RDM happens to have the misfortune of having been advertised with forced positioning (AKA Corps + Displacement) since the reveal, on top of being hailed as a "melee/ranged hybrid". It's easy to reach wereotter's conclusion between the job reveal, the trailers and how RDM NPCs fight, regardless of what is the job's optimal gameplay.

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And why would you ever base your rotation off what an npc is doing?

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NPCs have to be programmed to play as they do. It'd be one thing if they were 1 damage per hit extras that are there for immersion or played like ice mages, but that's far from the case.

Mind that I dislike the jumping around, but any deviation from it has been entirely player-driven as far as I can tell (otherwise the devs would have given RDM a greater melee presence in gameplay and/or stuff like Engagement wouldn't be intentionally weaker than Displacement).