Do SMN and BRD need 2 DoTs?

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

No, it would only make you use Iron Jaws whenever the shorter duration of the dots runs out. E.g. 30s dot applied on first gcd, 24s dot applied on second gcd. The first one to wear off will be the 24s duration dot with 3s remaining on the 30s one. Both are reset to 30s and 24s respectively. 24s later you reapply with Iron Jaws since the 24s duration is about to run out with 6s left on the 30s dot. Both are reset to 30s and 24s again. Repeat. The 30s dot would have 6s of useless duration on it with no point. Nevermind that Iron Jaws gives extra proc chance for using it over hard casting the dots, so using Iron Jaws will be preferable even ignoring the timer thing.

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Quick maths:
Early IJ: Burst Shot + Iron Jaws - 2 lost ticks = 230 + 100 -100 = 230
Manual: Caustic Bite + Stormbite = 150 + 100 = 250
Also CB and SB give the same proc chance as IJ. Please read your tooltips.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Quick maths:
Early IJ: Burst Shot + Iron Jaws - 2 lost ticks = 230 + 100 -100 = 230
Manual: Caustic Bite + Stormbite = 150 + 100 = 250
Also CB and SB give the same proc chance as IJ. Please read your tooltips.

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Did you factor in opportunity cost or are you cherry picking?

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Did you factor in opportunity cost or are you cherry picking?

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There is no opportunity cost, all actions are equally likely to generate a RA proc and an early IJ would only be useful to cast more Burst Shots, to which I just proved that losing 2 ticks of a dot is not worth.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

There is no opportunity cost, all actions are equally likely to generate a RA proc and an early IJ would only be useful to cast more Burst Shots, to which I just proved that losing 2 ticks of a dot is not worth.

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You'll need to show me more than 2 gcds of math on that. I'm a layman.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

You'll need to show me more than 2 gcds of math on that. I'm a layman.

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Burst Shot is Bard's downtime spam skill, and as such every GCD can be compared to it. With 6/0 left on your DoTs, your choices are:
1) Iron Jaws to refresh both DoT skills with 1 GCD, but lose 2 ticks of a DoT
2) Manually refresh the DoTs individually when they expire, using 2 GCDs.

In 1's scenario, you use 1 GCD to refresh DoTs (the spare will become Burst Shot, your spam skill), netting you an extra 230 potency for 230 total. 100 from Iron Jaws, 230 from Burst Shot, but -100 from the clipped DoTs.
In 2's scenario, you use 2 GCDs to refresh DoTs, but overall the potency is 250. 100 from Stormbite and 150 from Caustic Bite.

Yeah that's gonna be a hard pass for me fam. Keep my two Dots please. Dots are the one thing on Bard that don't need any changing right now, unless it's going back to snap shooting buffs again under crit reliance.

Now if you wanna talk about adding foe's back? Making Trobadour more versatile? Making Paen actually useful? Giving Blood letter charges? Then yeah I'm down for that. But nah BRD doesn't need any buttons removed. It's hotbar is one of the more bare bones of all of my jobs.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

They should either be made interesting (like the differing duration I have already mentioned) or just go.

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Um, no thank you. You cannot suggest this without also giving an adequate replacement on how we would receive our repertoire procs.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

With 6/0 left on your DoTs, your choices are:

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Iron Jaws IDEALLY SHOULD be used when you have <3s or so NOT at 6. Of course there are other factors to take into account like snap shoting buffs and boss downtime and such, but please don't try to use math to try and justify your argument when you are simply trying to pull numbers out to make your argument seem sound.

Like, do you even main b-....

Nevermind.

I'm going to go out on a limb here. Just because you play a particular class that has dots and may have certain suggestions and even ideas you would like to discuss, please do not drag in another class that you feel has a similar play style yet have a very limited understand on how they function, alongside with your argument. It just makes you look like you have no idea what you're talking about and will therefore continue to get shut down by those who actually KNOW the particular class you're trying to say has "button bloat".

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

No, it would only make you use Iron Jaws whenever the shorter duration of the dots runs out. E.g. 30s dot applied on first gcd, 24s dot applied on second gcd. The first one to wear off will be the 24s duration dot with 3s remaining on the 30s one. Both are reset to 30s and 24s respectively. 24s later you reapply with Iron Jaws since the 24s duration is about to run out with 6s left on the 30s dot. Both are reset to 30s and 24s again. Repeat. The 30s dot would have 6s of useless duration on it with no point. Nevermind that Iron Jaws gives extra proc chance for using it over hard casting the dots, so using Iron Jaws will be preferable even ignoring the timer thing.

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Applying both DoTs manually gives you a chance for Refulgent to proc already: Burst Shot, Iron Jaws, Stormbite, and Caustic Bite all grant a 35% RA proc chance when you use them. So this wouldn’t change. However, what would change is that you run the risk of overwriting RA procs more so than you do now—and losing damage because of it. BRD already has instances where they gain an RA proc but have to overwrite it for one reason or another: be it DoT refresh, manual DoT application in an opener, or whatever. And with Barrage automatically granting RA, you have to make sure you don’t overwrite it there as well. With no charge system on the skill, it’s easy to have to let a proc drop/overwrite (and a bit annoying, really).

BRDs would still just likely IJ to no overwrite RA procs with hard DoT casts and to just be more efficient with their GCD usage. I’d have to double check numbers for early IJ refreshes, but back in SB, you could refresh DoTs with less than 9s remaining and not lose potency from it. It may have changed now, but the standard would probably still be to just IJ. Especially when one is snapshotting buffs, since that would be far less cumbersome than manual reapplication.

BRD DoTs have never been different durations, and there’s literally no reason to make them as such now. Them being 18s/30s has worked just fine, and IJ is probably every BRD’s favorite skill after they learn it for the first time at level 56. This change is purely an “I want this” from the OP, with thinly veiled attempts at arguing “more engaging gameplay”. BRD gameplay would be more engaging with things like BL/RoD charges, RA charges, reimplementing Foe’s with a sort of gauge system that requires planning for its use, and a better design for Apex Arrow. We don’t need to change how the DoTs and IJ function to achieve that.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Quick maths:
Early IJ: Burst Shot + Iron Jaws - 2 lost ticks = 230 + 100 -100 = 230
Manual: Caustic Bite + Stormbite = 150 + 100 = 250
Also CB and SB give the same proc chance as IJ. Please read your tooltips.

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Ironically, this makes Iron Jaws complete redundant since you will seldom, if ever, press it. Which defeats the entire point of the skill refreshing your DoTs.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Ironically, this makes Iron Jaws complete redundant since you will seldom, if ever, press it. Which defeats the entire point of the skill refreshing your DoTs.

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Idk. Isn't there also the consideration of using two GCDs to manually refresh vs just one?

BRDs got a pretty good defense going here already, so I was gonna go with SMN and say, arguably, maybe, it probably could/should be condensed. Most of the time, whenever possible, you're applying/refreshing both with Tri-disaster anyway. What difference is it making if your one button is applying two DoTs or one?

Plus, maybe if they ween SMN off of DoTs, they can focus a little harder on the summoning part. Maybe make an actual DoT-centric job down the line. Green Mage.