Worst housing system I have ever seen

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I find it interesting that whenever people say instanced housing other people will respond we have that already, but I always felt it was clear that they meant unlimited (feeling) housing where every single person can have one.

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It's bad to make assumptions about what another person means because those assumptions get influenced by personal experience and desire. Far better for the poster to be specific in the first place since that limits the room for assumption.

Players need to remember we're talking to the development team through translators. Translators can't make assumptions about what the poster means. They have to translate what is written as accurately as possible. We also need to remember this is a world wide forum, not a regional forum. English speaking players post here regardless of where they live or what world they play on.

If we want to make our actual concerns known, then we need to be accurate in posting them.

Complaining about a lack of housing is going to get ignored. SE can see there is plenty available housing when they look at totals across all world.

Complaining about a lack of houses is going to get ignored. SE can see there is plenty of available houses when they look at totals across all worlds.

Complaining about a lack of houses on the NA worlds will get noticed and in fact has been. SE acknowledged during one of the June Live Letters that there is a shortage of houses on the NA worlds compared to player demand and that they would be discussing the situation internally after Shadowbringers was launched.

If we're going to our concerns addressed, then we need to be specific in stating them instead of assuming others understand what we really want.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

It's bad to make assumptions about what another person means because those assumptions get influenced by personal experience and desire. Far better for the poster to be specific in the first place since that limits the room for assumption.

Players need to remember we're talking to the development team through translators. Translators can't make assumptions about what the poster means. They have to translate what is written as accurately as possible. We also need to remember this is a world wide forum, not a regional forum. English speaking players post here regardless of where they live or what world they play on.

If we want to make our actual concerns known, then we need to be accurate in posting them.

Complaining about a lack of housing is going to get ignored. SE can see there is plenty available housing when they look at totals across all world.

Complaining about a lack of houses is going to get ignored. SE can see there is plenty of available houses when they look at totals across all worlds.

Complaining about a lack of houses on the NA worlds will get noticed and in fact has been. SE acknowledged during one of the June Live Letters that there is a shortage of houses on the NA worlds compared to player demand and that they would be discussing the situation internally after Shadowbringers was launched.

If we're going to our concerns addressed, then we need to be specific in stating them instead of assuming others understand what we really want.

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Oh yeah, that's why I've added what I mean as I say it whenever I do say. As I am now aware of many misunderstandings in this request, "I want instanced housing" "we already have it" - this is almost always a miscommunication and both parties are not talking about the same thing. Meaning probably an issue on both parts (assume, that famous saying to assume- makes a.. out of you and me lol). Half the reason I posted that wasn't for people here but hopes it was translated if the miscommunication still exists in SE (although I doubt it, but it's possible since I still see it to this day on the forums lol).

I merely wanted to say how I'm shocked this miscommunication exists since when people say it they all almost mean the same thing (very high accuracy/consistency of intent), so you'd think that when people who use it almost always mean the same thing that the miscommunication would be seldom and quickly corrected. I don't change using this wording because I think it's used consistently by the people who mean what they mean, but I do explain it to ensure the same page among what I'm saying is translated as well as others reading it.

So I'm not disagreeing on the need for clarity and that clearly people are assuming things vs understanding what each other mean; although, I also believe sometimes this is done on purpose to damage the conversation. Still am a bit shocked that it's so common when people who use the wording are very consistent on what they intended to mean. They'd likely not be asking for what we already have so you'd think people could also derive this meaning on the fly... but it's not the case lol.

Also just to add to your complaining about lack of housing point (mid post part)- I tend to mean more issues than that on a personal level when I post, not that you're saying what my complaint is/was but since we're on the topic of clarity I wanted to be clear (:D lol). I have a lot more issue with the system than just quantity (and I don't mean to say that like it's an easy fix, or easy to even make, I'm sure this stuff is hard, and even harder when you were coming out of ARR at mach 8 trying to design as fast as possible).

Since even if you could add 1 of each area until there is literally exactly 1 house for everyone (person and FC), I'd still think it had major issues since that means people couldn't switch to the new zones, sizes, or locations within, if they wanted. It would mean they're stuck in a specific size and in a specific area of a specific theme'd location, and I want a system that allows players to be where they want in a size that they want. On top of that I find the neighborhood benefits are outweighed by the cons it asks in limitations, like size of yard or object choices- so personally I'd like to see some personal zone spaces on top of the freedom of area, size, and location. Noting that I am not seeking destruction of the current system for those who like it, though to add that personal zone spaces can easily be social too and those afraid of losing that probably needn't be (especially if the MMO systems encourage it, Wildstar housing had quite a vibrant housing community).

Not asking for largest size to be free or easy either as that's sometimes assumed from my arguments, I do believe in upgrade paths (and housing should be a long smooth one). Though I also think it would be very smart to start players off earlier with a small room free, like FFXI, and encourage them to upgrade it over time like another type of character progression (to the point you've got a large and all that).

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Originally Posted by Vulcann

how can a game that came out in 2004 have instanced housing but this game cannot?

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Oh yeah, that's why I've added what I mean as I say it whenever I do say. As I am now aware of many misunderstandings in this request, "I want instanced housing" "we already have it" - this is almost always a miscommunication and both parties are not talking about the same thing. Meaning probably an issue on both parts (assume, that famous saying to assume- makes a.. out of you and me lol). Half the reason I posted that wasn't for people here but hopes it was translated if the miscommunication still exists in SE (although I doubt it, but it's possible since I still see it to this day on the forums lol).

I merely wanted to say how I'm shocked this miscommunication exists since when people say it they all almost mean the same thing (very high accuracy/consistency of intent), so you'd think that when people who use it almost always mean the same thing that the miscommunication would be seldom and quickly corrected. I don't change using this wording because I think it's used consistently by the people who mean what they mean, but I do explain it to ensure the same page among what I'm saying is translated as well as others reading it.

So I'm not disagreeing on the need for clarity and that clearly people are assuming things vs understanding what each other mean; although, I also believe sometimes this is done on purpose to damage the conversation. Still am a bit shocked that it's so common when people who use the wording are very consistent on what they intended to mean. They'd likely not be asking for what we already have so you'd think people could also derive this meaning on the fly... but it's not the case lol.

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When someone asks a completely obvious question like "how can a game that came out in 2004 have instanced housing but this game cannot?", then I think it's valid to provide an obvious answer.

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Originally Posted by Edax

The answer to your question is that this game already has instanced housing, it's called Apartments. They were added in patch 3.4 in 2016. You can read more about them in this wiki:
https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Apartments

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Yes, I know they are referring to instanced "houses" but even that prompts an obvious answer:

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Originally Posted by Edax

Because Square Enix Holdings Co., Ltd. controls the intellectual property and chose not to implement your preferred housing system. It's the same reason you can't fly around space in Battleships like Eve Online despite Eve Online being a game from 2003. Square Enix choose not to implement it for FFXIV.

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It maybe damaging to the conversation, but at the same time why would someone start a thread asking something that is completely obvious? It reads like people whining over something that was already given to them. Instanced housing exists in the game, players aren't completely left out, this already seems like progress but so many of these whine threads act like they don't even exist. This is why I personally feel people should be reminded to cherish what they already have. Most of these anti-housing threads are reductionist to begin with, which is why I feel they are so deserving of reductionist answers to their questions.

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Originally Posted by Edax

When someone asks a completely obvious question like "how can a game that came out in 2004 have instanced housing but this game cannot?", then I think it's valid to provide an obvious answer.

Yes, I know they are referring to instanced "houses" but even that prompts an obvious answer:

It maybe damaging to the conversation, but at the same time why would someone start a thread asking something that is completely obvious? It reads like people whining over something that was already given to them. Instanced housing exists in the game, players aren't completely left out, this already seems like progress but so many of these whine threads act like they don't even exist. This is why I personally feel people should be reminded to cherish what they already have. Most of these anti-housing threads are reductionist to begin with, which is why I feel they are so deserving of reductionist answers to their questions.

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I do understand that questions like "how can she slap?" are not the best questions if you wanted initiate change or at least good conversation (questions like that get a lot of "because she can.. what are you asking me?"), but I would disagree with you that it's already been given once request is understood (what's been given not equal to what is asked for). When instanced housing is requested, what is intended, what is meant to be desired, is not what exists, instanced housing as they ask for it is not what FFXIV has. And as one does when you want for something, you go and ask for/show desire for something as one should be able to- to be told what is asked for already is given is inaccurate (although perhaps desire could be worded more clearly if it's creating miscommunication, Jojoya is right that we should try to be clear as possible especially as these things go across translated lines).

So I can see how some wordings would/could annoy you and you may feel like they don't deserve an answer that you want to give, but I would disagree at the point that it's been delivered or that they can't ask for it even if there has been shown resistance (by the dev team) thus far. As a sort of example it was asked for a long time to allow us to queue and chocobo at the same time and SE was like "impossible", yet it was shown to be well worth the long game ask anyways. As chocobos are much better now that you can queue and use them (quality of the companions greatly improving, and of course this isn't the only example where persistence and showing the value the players have for something paid off- personally I'm even thinking further to their next MMORPG if they can't do something about it here).

If you wish people were less exaggerated or had better questions, fine and fair enough lol, but still the bottom line is that they're asking for something that doesn't exist currently and at least personally it doesn't seem like it should be hard to deduce that's what they're asking for either (given context and examples of other MMORPGs that have been able achieve the requested result). So if they clearly meant maroon when they said a dark purple red, I guess I find it unnecessary to clog up the information further. Although to be fair it could be possible it's not clear, which is why just in case I always (now) clarify what I mean about systems I'd like to see (now or in another mmorpg).

Also while not really important to the point I would say these are not anti-housing threads in the slightest, if we're at least attempting to be overly clear and not ask / pass silly questions like "how can she slap?" lol. Clearly people want housing to be more accessible and flexible than it is currently, if anything these are very much pro-housing threads but anti-FFXIV's current system. :P

Or I suppose I'd say in another way, while admittedly addictive, if you feel they've worded poorly and yet you understand their poorly worded desires does it help to give them a poorly worded answer vs improving the understanding and attempting to move the conversation to something more constructive? You're allowed to say it's more fun to respond purposefully fire with like fire.. but I just think that's a bad deal in the long run for communication ("I know what they meant, I dislike how they said or that they made it a really messy point so I'm going to knowingly further contribute to it being a mess"). Also of course to be fair and to add not everyone who posts pro-house (;) , "instanced house" lol) is posting in good faith either, some of what might come off as bad is just a bit unregulated passion but I'm sure some are more of a bad faith chaos / salt farm; although, having a similar passion/desire for instanced housing (as I've described it) and wanting to actively discourage the current system as a preferred system even if it only is taken into consideration for the next mmorpg.. it might be harder for me to see bad faith actors that look similar due to my bias.

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Originally Posted by Edax

This is why I personally feel people should be reminded to cherish what they already have.

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While I think this can become dangerous if people start to basically go in the direction of "SE deserves my money and doesn't need to work for it" (an argument I don't feel you tried to make), I do agree that we should remember the good things and also tell SE about them. Just hearing people complain non-stop probably doesn't help one's enthusiasm for work. Definitely remember to appreciate things, just also don't turn it into "we should be thankful of X pitiful thing" lol (not saying anything is pitiful, it was only meant as a fill in the blank sentence). Not trying to slippery slope you as again I don't think you were saying people are not allowed to criticize, but I bet you could also imagine that argument (of needing to be thankful what you have) being used in a sort of white knight environment where everything is gold even if it's really really not "all gold". Actually that's why I made sure to mention I think SE's objects in the housing are fantastic, and I truly mean that. I do want them to know largely I think the game is amazing and I also try to take part in compliment threads, but I also don't want to be afraid to criticize what I feel like should be (obviously objective on what is good/bad lol XD). Of course not every thread that suggests something is criticism either, probably obvious but I felt to add it anyways.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Also while not really important to the point I would say these are not anti-housing threads in the slightest

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Lets look at some of these thread titles:
"Worst Housing System I have ever seen" (THIS VERY THREAD)
"Housing System cannot be adequately fixed"
"Taking my money elsewhere"
"The Housing System is Trash"
"Dreadful Housing System"
"How can a game that came out in 2004 have instanced housing and this game cannot?"

https://i.imgur.com/9vofiZg.jpg

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Originally Posted by Shougun

While I think this can become dangerous if people start to basically go in the direction of "SE deserves my money and doesn't need to work for it" (an argument I don't feel you tried to make), I do agree that we should remember the good things and also tell SE about them. Just hearing people complain non-stop probably doesn't help one's enthusiasm for work. Definitely remember to appreciate things, just also don't turn it into "we should be thankful of X pitiful thing" lol (not saying anything is pitiful, it was only meant as a fill in the blank sentence). Not trying to slippery slope you as again I don't think you were saying people are not allowed to criticize, but I bet you could also imagine that argument (of needing to be thankful what you have) being used in a sort of white knight environment where everything is gold even if it's really really not "all gold". Actually that's why I made sure to mention I think SE's objects in the housing are fantastic, and I truly mean that. I do want them to know largely I think the game is amazing and I also try to take part in compliment threads, but I also don't want to be afraid to criticize what I feel like should be (obviously objective on what is good/bad lol XD). Of course not every thread that suggests something is criticism either, probably obvious but I felt to add it anyways.

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If feels like the vast majority of housing discussions ended up being reduced to owning a house. For those whom already own homes, there's very little to talk about anymore because few actually want to talk about the housing system anymore, the conversation devolves to talking about the darn placards which is only a very small part of the system. It's not that people shouldn't be afraid to complain, it's that the placard complaints have drowned out all the other housing conversations. I'm a big housing advocate but it's just so tiring to read all these repetitive, reductionist rant posts. What is there even to say anymore?

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Originally Posted by Edax

Lets look at some of these thread titles:
"Worst Housing System I have ever seen" (THIS VERY THREAD)
"Housing System cannot be adequately fixed"
"Taking my money elsewhere"
"The Housing System is Trash"
"Dreadful Housing System"
"How can a game that came out in 2004 have instanced housing and this game cannot?"

https://i.imgur.com/9vofiZg.jpg

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You missed the rest of that quote :(. These people want houses, so they're not anti-housing. I know what you mean but if you were going to give people silly answers for what you felt were silly questions I thought it only fair to point out these are not anti-housing threads. They want housing, thus not anti-housing. They're anti-FFXIV housing, they want something different. They're not the same though, but like I said I understand what you're trying to say- they're definitely anti-something lol.

Yes people are disgruntled and yes they are anti-FFXIV's system, that doesn't mean they're against housing though.

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Originally Posted by Edax

If feels like the vast majority of housing discussions ended up being reduced to owning a house. For those whom already own homes, there's very little to talk about anymore because few actually want to talk about the housing system anymore, the conversation devolves to talking about the darn placards which is only a very small part of the system. It's not that people shouldn't be afraid to complain, it's that the placard complaints have drowned out all the other housing conversations. I'm a big housing advocate but it's just so tiring to read all these repetitive, reductionist rant posts. What is there even to say anymore?

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Would recommend if the forums get tiring to stop reading the ones that tire you- just hardcore nope out of threads :D (I do), the forums are never going to change in that regard lol. Beyond that people will naturally spend more time complaining here (hopefully constructive criticism) than celebrating, because if you're happy or at least apathetic it's more likely you wont bother saying anything at all (which is a bit sad I guess, but generally how people are).

As for what more to say, well /shrug lol. New people coming in all the time, they've got something they want to say. Old people whose feelings haven't changed and want to pulse the issue. W.e.

There is going to be a lot of repeat here, and will always be unless SE becomes hyper restrictive on the speech and content that goes on in the forums. I can understand it can get annoying though, there are ceterain issues that people really care about that I don't.. but at the same time I understand I've got my own cares so I tend to leave their threads alone.

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Originally Posted by saxman09

I doubt any of the devs will read this as all these complaints are basically piss in the wind to them. But my issue is the fact that THEY KNOW what the issues are currently, THEY KNOW timers are dumb, THEY KNOW people are losing sleep over this, THEY KNOW an entire FC owns half a ward, THEY KNOW this current set up is promoting click bots/RMT house flipping, THEY KNOW all of this and have to to put out a single quick patch to fix any of these issues.

My quick fix would look like this:
1) END PLOT RELOCATION: Stop it completely, people with houses shouldn't get dibs on plots that are for people without them, ESPECIALLY with the RNG timer implementation. Plot relocation is currently a bane to new house buyers and a boon for RMT. Someone wants to buy a house with money? All someone has to do is relinquish the plot, by pass the timer and they have the new spot. RMT users who own a house love this system, go check reddit if you don't believe me.

2) Destruction of any and all non-active house users and change of use policy: I've taken a stroll to expirment during peak hours mind you and I saw 4-5 houses being used. Actual people hanging out there doing things/activities/queuing/chatting. While roughly 80% of the houses in the wards are completely dead. People are complaining about losing the "community feel" if instanced housing becomes a thing and I say BS, I don't see any community outside of my FC neighbors another constantly active group. All other houses are dead. Might as well have nobody around.

3) Deval timers AND sale timers on placards: This is literally a no brainer. You will stop SOOOO many headaches and people can sleep and have a proper notion of when to be on for those houses to pop. RNG causes imense frustration especially when it wastes people's sub time. WASTING PEOPLE'S SUB TIME ISN'T A FIX. Give people a set time to return and at least they can now feel LESS cheated because they didn't waste 20+ hours of thier lives sitting in one spot praying for RNGesus.
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Originally Posted by Shougun

You missed the rest of that quote :(. These people want houses, so they're not anti-housing. I know what you mean but if you were going to give people silly answers for what you felt were silly questions I thought it only fair to point out these are not anti-housing threads. They want housing, thus not anti-housing. They're anti-FFXIV housing, they want something different. They're not the same though, but like I said I understand what you're trying to say- they're definitely anti-something lol.

Yes people are disgruntled and yes they are anti-FFXIV's system, that doesn't mean they're against housing though.

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These threads saying they're quitting the game or these threads advocating the destruction of the current housing system are very much interpreted by me as anti-housing as they are very much not pro-housing.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Would recommend if the forums get tiring to stop reading the ones that tire you- just hardcore nope out of threads (I do), the forums are never going to change in that regard lol. Beyond that people will naturally spend more time complaining here (hopefully constructive criticism) than celebrating, because if you're happy or at least apathetic it's more likely you wont bother saying anything at all (which is a bit sad I guess, but generally how people are).

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As I said, I'm a pro-housing advocate. I want to talk about housing. I don't see people spamming near identical threads in the other sub-forums.

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Originally Posted by Edax

These threads saying they're quitting the game or these threads advocating the destruction of the current housing system are very much interpreted by me as anti-housing as they are very much not pro-housing.

As I said, I'm a pro-housing advocate. I want to talk about housing. I don't see people spamming near identical threads in the other sub-forums.

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Fair enough that you feel they're anti-housing, just so long hopefully you also understand what I was trying to explain ^_^.

Just in case I made a silly example:

A: I love chocolate, I want you to make me a milk-chocolate cake.
B: Okay, I hear you- I've made you a german chocolate cake!
A: I didn't want nuts. I'm allergic to them.
B: I made you chocolate cake, why aren't you happy?
A: I like chocolate, I can't have chocolate cake with nuts- please make me another one.
B: Nah I made you exactly what you wanted.
A: I didn't want this.
B: Literally exactly what you wanted, it's a chocolate cake now get your epipen and be quiet.
A: MAKE ME ANOTHER CAKE
B: YOU WANTED THIS ONE I MADE IT, YOU HATE CHOCOLATE? YOU'RE AGAINST CHOCOLATE AREN'T YOU!?!?!
A: REEEEEEEEEEE
[insert some Gordon Ramsey memes here]

Lol. Clearly B didn't quite deliver what A wanted, just as SE has not delivered housing in the form that I'd say the great majority of players that mention "instanced housing" feel (can't speak for everyone but from what I've read it's true, even if some of the posts are more aggressive than I'd prefer). That's not to say there is no C player who think's German chocolate cake is the best cake, there are obviously lol.. just that for A they do actually love and greatly desire cake (they love housing, they are pro-housing in the concept of housing in an mmorpg) they do not however love german chocolate cake (SE's housing). They're clearly pro chocolate, they're just not pro of the variant made.

Not that I think you have to view it this way, but I doubt if you told people who are making these threads that they hate (or at least are anti) housing, that they hate(/anti) chocolate, that they'd ever agree with you because they don't/are not lol. But I can understand what you're trying to say, so at least I think I see what you're trying to express to me.

Personally I think we should encourage an environment that's open to criticism but also comradery and growth. I understand everyone see's that differently.. so even if everyone agreed with me we'd not agree on end results.. but I do wish we could voice our concerns to SE politely (and I do wish SE takes polite feedback sincerely). Which isn't to say SE must act on every comment or feedback but you'd hope the means of communication are not "the biggest REEE gets the most grease" :p, because it would encourage bit of a toxic relationship.

I don't want to cause too much side discussion but hopefully we're at an understanding even if it's not a complete agreement lol. Feel free to quote/respond to me of course~! Just warning I'll probably not respond because I don't want to derail the thread's purpose, not to see my response as a lack of interest :).

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Fair enough that you feel they're anti-housing, just so long hopefully you also understand what I was trying to explain ^_^.

Just in case I made a silly example:

-snip the rest -

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Player A acting that way is the worst possible approach to trying to get Player B (or SE) to reconsider anything. They're coming off as an entitled, spoiled brat having a temper tantrum. They're going to end up getting ignored.

It no longer matters what they're actually asking for. People stop caring about what Player A wants. They've tuned that person out.

If you're trying to use Player B to represent SE's response to players, it's a bad example. Instead of the "Nah I made you exactly what you wanted", the response should have been "I used up my available ingredients making the cake for you. I don't know when I'll have more to try to make another cake for you because I also have to be making food for these other 700,000 people who don't particularly about cake."

No one is trying to discourage criticism but it needs to be calm, constructive discussion promoting change to benefit the community and not the "I'M GONNA QUIT BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T GIVE ME WHAT I WANT" temper tantrums.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Player A acting that way is the worst possible approach to trying to get Player B (or SE) to reconsider anything. They're coming off as an entitled, spoiled brat having a temper tantrum. They're going to end up getting ignored.

It no longer matters what they're actually asking for. People stop caring about what Player A wants. They've tuned that person out.

If you're trying to use Player B to represent SE's response to players, it's a bad example. Instead of the "Nah I made you exactly what you wanted", the response should have been "I used up my available ingredients making the cake for you. I don't know when I'll have more to try to make another cake for you because I also have to be making food for these other 700,000 people who don't particularly about cake."

No one is trying to discourage criticism but it needs to be calm, constructive discussion promoting change to benefit the community and not the "I'M GONNA QUIT BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T GIVE ME WHAT I WANT" temper tantrums.

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Didn't tell you I wouldn't respond to you either so I'll put one more response in as a "I'm out" haha, since while I don't love the title of the thread I do share some desires to change the system (would like to say what was said differently and politely, but I can see their earnest passion for it). And that I don't feel the last few of my posts have been as close to the intent of the thread. First of my post I'm happy with and second to explain further but I don't want the thread mutate into being about assumptions/misconceptions good and bad faith arguments and my feeling therein when it's not what started the thread haha.

Anyway onto your point- I agree. ;).

https://i.imgur.com/iefr9JX.png

If you want a good relationship, and hopefully SE does, I know you do as I can tell from reading how you wish people to talk nicely, then of course we should inform SE of our dissatisfaction of stuff while trying to avoid insults. Sometimes saying something isn't very good feels like an insult I guess but I don't count that, I think we can agree there is a difference between "I don't like this, here are the reasons why I don't like this, I would really like this" is different than "REEEEE SIRENS" hahaha :D.

And just on the player B point I actually infused it with a bit of other players, player B was sort of SE and other players responding to player A (SE has never, that I can recall, told player's to stuff it and take a metaphorical epipen lol). I was mostly going for "if you know what they meant, even if they said it poorly, then why spur further chaos" sort of concept. The concept that these players who are unhappy with the system as is REALLY want housing (uncontrolled and passionately so), they just don't want X, that they REALLY want "Y" and that what X is.. is clearly not Y. I'm fine if people feel like "I don't care, if you say it poorly I'll give you poorly back" but I just don't personally want to encourage that and am fine mentioning counter to that then (as I did lol).

Which was what my first post here was, my shock that something I felt should be evident was not (if you don't assume the worst of people it should be reasonable to figure they're not asking for that which already exists, at least if they've already told you they've gone hunting for houses and they hate the system).. and that I was going to make it evident by also posting what the majority meant when they said "instanced housing".

So anyway, I agree that good criticism is important. Maybe I disagree on the "no longer matters" part, because I think if you know what they meant then you know.. what they said still means something even if the delivery wasn't in a package one may have preferred, and I dislike the idea of adding similar gasoline to the fire even if it's not your fault there is a fire anyways ("I don't like fire, so let's make it a bigger fire!".. lol - at least intentionally, accidents/assumptions happen as you said).

Okay peace out guys :D

If I can bring it back on topic I might respond but otherwise probably not (at least on this thread). I feel comfortable with some tangents but holding that tangent for too long makes me feel bad for the thread's purpose (issues with housing).