I don't follow what your lore-related complaint is. Primarily because you haven't actually stated what it is.
If you're referring to Dark Knights as they exist in Eorzea, they unsurprisingly exist in contrast to Paladins. Paladins swear oaths to protect people. Sometimes, as is the case with the Sultansworn, their oaths are to protect people in power, or institutions. Sometimes, as we saw in Ishgard, those institutions can be corrupt. That's where Dark Knights come in. They have no oaths, and no allegiances. Their only job is to be true to their hearts, and mete out justice as they see fit. They tear down the corrupt. But in so doing, they live as outcasts.
Opposite sides of the same coin. In a way, it's a reversal of FFIV's take on the Paladin/Dark Knight duality.
If your "lore" issue is about why we don't use HP to do damage, well, that's simple. In a single player game where you control all the characters, expending HP to do damage comes at the cost of your own resources. You still have to spend MP from your healer to heal yourself up so that you can continue. In an MMO, using HP to do damage comes at the expense of your healers' resources, instead of your own. Optimising your dps would come at the expense of your healers. It probably wouldn't go down well. And with the removal of Convert this expansion, we're unlikely to see actions which go down this route.
Speaking of Runic, I think this was a bit of a missed opportunity with Dark Missionary. If we're going to have a magic-only raidwide defense, I'd rather it be a sparkly absorb with a better ability name.
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08-19-2019, 06:40 AMLyth
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08-19-2019, 08:22 AMAbsimiliardThe major lore complaint most people seem to have about DRK is that it isn't evil. The vast majority of Dark Knight's appearances throughout the Final Fantasy franchise have had it either downright evil or immensely corruptive. Even Cecil wasn't able to use its power without it eating away at his soul.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
As for Runic? Yeah, you ain't wrong. Dark Missionary truly was a missed opportunity. -
08-19-2019, 09:23 AMLyth
Every Final Fantasy brings its own unique variations on a theme. Given that we just finished an expansion in which managed to turn Light into something fear-inducing, horrific, and evil, I'd say that this game's take on Light and Dark is a lot more nuanced. I love it.
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08-19-2019, 09:28 AMRazardBut it wasn't though. The only outright evil Dark Knight Was Leon from FF2. Cecil was never evil and job didn't "eat away at his Soul". It's outright stated that he couldn't defeat the forces of Darkness while using Dark abilities. The rest of DRKs appearances where as a Neutral Job (Including, hilariously, FF10-2 with all it's J-pop bubbly nonsense). Also you have the whole "The player character is a famous hero" so the only thing they could get away with was Fantasy Greatsword wielding Batman. See also, Thieves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
Is this what we are reduced to now? Complaining that the Job doesn't cater to the edgy 15 year old demographic enough?
You obviously haven't been paying attention. Please sit down before you hurt yourself.Quote:
Like steal Rune Knights from FF11 and Celes job from FF6 identity and rename it into Dark Knight so that they can go "DA DERKNESSS DERKI DERK!". Like we're just missing Runic. All we'd really need to do is just allow Dark mind to recover some HP and maybe some MP when they are hit by a magical attack and we could just rename the skill.
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08-19-2019, 09:39 AMShurrikhanWhy should the lore be constrained to former iterations here or elsewhere? If it's cohesive and compelling, then that's that.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
We can obviously argue that there are some missed opportunities between even XIV's lore for DRK and the mechanics then given to them, but we probably have just as much DRK lore from XIV specifically as from other iterations combined, so why judge only according to fidelity with the bits and pieces of the other half when we now have something more cohesive and -- to many -- at least as compelling? -
08-19-2019, 11:30 AMAbsimiliardDid you actually play Final Fantasy IV? The game outright tells you what being a dark knight does to people. Cecil himself even lampshades the fact that wielding the dark sword was taking a toll on him. King Baron further adds to this by informing us that those who failed to master the dark sword had their souls consumed by it and became little better than mindless killing machines. He then goes on to state that even whose who mastered the art would lose their souls somewhere down the line. While FFX-2's dark knight dress sphere is neutral, the lore behind it is that it has a corrupting influence. Said influence simply does not present itself in-game. FFXI's dark knight is also presented as something that can erode the mind and soul. War of the Lions brings us both Dark Knight and Fell Knight, both of which are stated to corrupt the user irreversibly. Even Dissidia makes mention of the fact that Cecil isn't completely comfortable using his dark side due of the inherent risks associated with that power. As for Leon... can we even really count him? His job title may have been Dark Knight, but he didn't actually seem to have any of the abilities that would come to be associated with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razard
What a lot of people don't realize is that Final Fantasy XIV actually does have its own version of this. Dark Knights in FFXIV lore can actually be consumed by their own power if they don't control their emotions properly. It makes no mention of consuming the soul or anything like that (to my knowledge, anyway), but it can completely rob them of the person they are. The process is irreversible once complete - the dark knight becomes little more than a killing machine driven by its uncontrolled emotions, uncaring who or what gets hurt over the course of its rampage. The line they walk is razor thin.
Now, having said all that, I would like to pose a question: Why is preferring the job's less kind iterations something only an edgy 15 year old would do? Some of the best stories ever written were those where the hero fell, sometimes even becoming something far worse than what they'd been fighting against. The depiction of dark knights as slowly losing themselves in exchange for the power they harness is one that adds a sort of gravitas - their actions, having both meaning and consequences, are a burden they must bear for so long as they continue to wield wicked power, even in pursuit of peace.
Disclaimer: This is a devil's advocate piece. I am not in any way opposed to DRK's lore in FFXIV. Could it have been handled better? Sure, but that doesn't make it bad. -
08-19-2019, 12:29 PMLyth
Darkness isn't intrinsically good or evil. When discussing their actions in Mysidia, Cecil tells Kain that he took up the dark sword to protect the people of Baron, rather than to pillage and kill innocents. His doubts are what drive him to eventually turn his back on Baron, still as a Dark Knight.
Likewise, being a Dark Knight in FFXIV doesn't rob you of your humanity. It's the exact opposite. It's about being true to yourself. It's about freeing yourself from the shackles and expectations that others place on you. The warrior of light. Our weapon of light.
Listen to my voice. Listen to your heartbeat. Listen for the other...
On a throne of bone she waits...
Serve... Save... Slave... Slay...
They come to entreat her judgment...
Serve... Save... Slave... Slay...
One by one, in solemn procession...
A chorus of voices cries out for a hero, and she comes.
She smiles. She nods. And she remains silent...
But she too has a voice...
I will be heard...
The crux of the entire Dark Knight storyline is about finding a voice for your voiceless player character. By harnessing your emotions and giving in to the abyss, you find liberation.
Let's make the most of this. No style, no guile, just chaos. Mark your limits, then push yourself beyond. Let the darkness guide you and set you free.
...You stand at the precipice, but do not fear the fall. Cast yourself into the abyss, and you shall soar above, free at last.
Only when you have renounced everything are you free to do anything. When we meet again, you will give us your answer.
A heart bleeds, a man weeps, a soul burns. Thence comes the darkness, to consume...
Yet even in the depths, the flame endures...
Submit to the flame and harness the abyss...
The point is, your master was absolutely right when he told you to “submit to the flame.” You just never figured out what he meant by it.
It all seems so simple in retrospect...
The moment I stopped trying to find the answer, there it was. All that anger, all that rage...born of a fervent desire to protect that which we hold most dear.
Being a Dark Knight is about acting with humanity, not servitude to abstract ideals. What laypersons call the "darkness" is actually a manifestation of your inner voice and individuality. It's about being true to your feelings and protecting the people most important to you.
I wanted this, once. More than anything. A chance to speak and be heard...
But neither of us needs it anymore. And if we were to look deep within ourselves, we would realize that we never did.
We are the stories we tell ourselves. The brave hero, the tortured soul, the altruist, the pragmatist. They will tell you who they see, but you and you alone know who you are.
I'll say this again: Where others are bound by their Oaths to serve corrupt institutions and tyrants, Dark Knights are free to aid and protect those that they care about. Not because they're asked to, obliged to, or required to, but because they want to. Find yourself, and free yourself. -
08-19-2019, 01:40 PMDragonkatI'm browsing the forums so 7/8 asleep i can't even spell browse right (thank you spell checker) but this right here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakshazi
/hug. Thank you for saying it and not giving a damn who you tick off in the process. Because it's true. Balancing around savage and the elitist twits who only want more dps to clear savage faster (why? so you can get your loot 0.48 seconds faster?) is how we got into this homogenization hot mess classes (not just tanks, look at AST everything is balance now) are becoming with these new "roles"
A tanks job isn't to dps, a healer's job isn't to holy spam. if you want to dps PLAY. A. **** DPS!
But because of people whining about DA having to be spammed nonstop (otherwise you lose DPS) and how some party comps outpaced others (because you lose dps) we get this crap for ShB where everything is basically the same engine under different model cars. Mechanics that might be considered unique or different be damned. DRK didn't need quietus and AD spam to play a razors edge sustain game in mass pulls, just give them their own weaker non crit IR and ignore living dead, surely no one will complain right?
*sigh* the DPS mentality and balancing 95% of your game around the 5% only the people to whom dps truly matters is doing more damage to this game and it's fun then anything else, it's why I shelved DRK and eventually gave up on GNB to just play dps classes this expac, everything else is a bore or a chore. -
08-19-2019, 01:46 PMAbsimiliardI would encourage you to go research both of these things more thoroughly. FFIV explicitly states that the dark sword can and does negatively impact everyone that takes it up. Just because Cecil hadn't yet succumbed to its corruptive influence doesn't mean it wasn't having an impact - he says himself that it's changing him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
FFXIV's DRK lore, meanwhile, directly states that any dark knight that fails to properly contain their emotions can be overwhelmed by them to the point of being lost forever. It does indeed pose a great risk to your psyche. A dark knight in FFXIV is taking an immense personal risk each and every time they reach down into their emotions to call upon that power. Fray (the real one, not our aether-forged simulacrum thereof) was actually headed down that very path. Stronger emotions equate to a more powerful dark knight, but becoming too immersed in them exacts a terrible price. They temper their wrath with love for a reason. The process by which DRK functions is described the same way both in-game and in officially sanctioned external materials. This is what they are. What their power is drawn from does not detract from the fact that their purpose is to protect those they wish without considerations as to station or institution. -
08-19-2019, 05:02 PMFannah
I play since ARR but went more seriously in HW, and I'm like did we all play the same game? There always was complains about how every tanks are the same for years, how actually every job even tanks and healers are actually designed as DPS with tanking/healing mechanics, about how Bard is actually just a dps and not a real unique buffer like in other MMO (see Ragnarök Online), about how DRK lost all its difficulty and became too easy to play in SB compared to HW, how War just became in SB a stupid Fell Cleave machine meme, how PLD have enough to not be picked in optimized raid teams because of a lack of DPS and how the War can start fight without even starting in Tanking stance. It's nothing new. And the answer about non-uniqueness was that they want every possible team composition can clear any dungeon at 4, and any raid at 8 (or 24) so people play any class they want without having a team leader being like "need bard/dancer for buff. need paladin for covering people. need Scholar for giving back MP to the team. Need Priest for heal and buffs. Every other class, just come dps, you're irrelevant as long as we have enough." they didn't want mandatory classes against optionnal ones. So we all are as mandatory as optionnal with the forced trinity 1 tank, 1 heal, 2 dps.
Maybe SE had enough and wanted to show something because it's been years people complain about the non-uniqueness of those jobs and how similar they feel.
They must be or confused, or laughing a lot reading such topic when you know what people are saying for years and now having people being like "those jobs were unique and fun" when like no one said so during HW/SB (some people still defended them, but the overall complain was there).
About the fact more people find MCH fun, it doesn't mean SE fixed something. Because they already had fun with another job. People already having fun still have fun, while people who had fun in a very different way lost their fun. That's not what I would call fixing a job. Maybe they did, but not for that reason.