Thoughts on PLD changes

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Originally Posted by TheForce

Wow, that guy sounds horrible. Honestly, if I was you Sqwall I would've just ignored him and kept doing my thing. If someone's isn't truly harming the group and preventing progression, one should not try and dictate how they play. Even then, some light pointers is really all that's needed.

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THANK YOU! I love tanking and I don't want to change due to other members poop attitude. I heal with AST as well and plan to level it shortly after i'm 80 on PLD. The healers to me have been traumatized from past expansions being forced to DPS to pass a check. Now they feel that they have to DPS all the time. It's ok you don't have to anymore, I only did DPS as a heal when the actual DPS members were insanely good. Things would melt fast before I needed to heal.

Thank you for saying this though. Toxic players really are toxic.

People dragging the dungeon for everyone to compensate for something probably rather pathetic instead of just doing their job and let the healers do theirs is more obnoxious than regen when I'm about to pull.

Been playing Paladin since 2.0, though I only raided seriously on it in SB.

I absolutely adore new paladin. Only things I truly miss from stormblood is cast times, because it actually made me feel like a mage tank (not a big fan of instant cast requiescat even if gameplay wise it's very handy), and shield swipe because I loved to backhand slap people.

But really besides that everything about paladin is perfect now. A fun, proper aoe rotation that goes from physical to magical just like the single target one, Atonement which makes the single target rotation feel less repetitive, and the shelltron change making it a mini bulwark is lovely. Confiteor being the grand finale is icing on the cake.

All in all, 10/10 gameplay wise, 9.5/10 all around because I miss my cast times to pretend I am a caster.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Did they change something about Clemency?
Because it's driving me insane when I heal in dungeons... It seems like there's more Clemency spammers around than before, lol.
And every time that I point it out and tell PLD's that they're not going to die and don't need to use Clemency they're either rude or don't respond or tell me why.

It's honestly very irritating and feels like they don't trust me <_<.
Just because you're bellow 80% hp doesn't mean that you're going to die or that I am sleeping ( btw I have insta heals )...

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The reason why more paladins use Clemency now is because it's stronger than before, Requiescat is now a 50% buff instead of 20%, and you can now instant cast Clemency five times in a row.

Keep in mind that with the expansion still being recent, most paladins might use Clemency to overcome lack of gear/dungeon knowledge. In 80 dungeons you shouldn't see properly geared paladins clemency very much if at all, and after a week or two most paladins should be geared enough and have enough dungeon knowledge to not need clemency no matter the dungeon if they queue up for roulettes. Glory to Holy Circle!

I feel like PLD is a tad bit overpowered. I could see that back when we saw the damage potencies from media tour videos. But aside from the obvious damage complaints everyone has about evvery job in every game ever made. Real job changes to fix existing issues:

*Shellwark(Enhanced Shelltron) should be 5 seconds base and moved to level 35. Then at level 74 you unlock the enhanced version, giving you 10 seconds to line up with other buffs. Seriously I can't believe that Shelltron and Bulwark weren't combined 4 years ago they go together like peanut butter and jelly.
*Cover needs to have a "Rescue" treatment put on it. Its range is so small that when I try to save an ally they are always too far away. If they are going to nerf it back down to 0% mitigation, then for the love of christ, please auto-pull the party member to us so we can cover them like healer's "Rescue".
*Return Flash as an oGCD for a little bit of extra mitigation. PLD feels much squishier than the other tanks IMO.
*Maybe Divine Veil on Oath Gauge.

Otherwise PLD is the greatest it's ever been and I'm freaking ecstatic they continue to truly EXPAND upon PLD with every EXPANSION. Unlike DRK (Goes through three reworks and it still plays like a lost and confused child in the mall.)

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Did they change something about Clemency?
Because it's driving me insane when I heal in dungeons... It seems like there's more Clemency spammers around than before, lol.

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Like Boodeb said, it's ridiculously powerful now. I've successfully soloed a few dungeon bosses with it including the final boss of Amaurot when my party went down pretty early in the fight and I decided to see if I could do it. Thanks to the Req changes I was never in any danger of dying as the boss has no tank buster at all and I could mitigate/heal through everything else.

When I pull big, I started using clemency but not because I don't trust the healer so much as to guarantee that I stay alive long enough for the dps to kill everything. If the healer doesn't like it I don't care, if it helps me survive the big pulls in the dungeons long enough for the dps to kill the enemies then my mission is accomplished.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

This is honestly absurd about clemency. I can say that after a dungeon run today as the healer just DPS'ed the entire time. Just nothing but Holy Spam and I would get down to 20k HP. If I see a WHM spamming Holy and i'm that low I can expect a Benne at some point. But 25k HP? If I have to burn a CD because a healer just wants to NOT heal then they should have rolled a DPS.

I proceeded to Clemency away, and not just one. I went insta cast requeiscat clemency spam. poof! Full HP in like 5 seconds. AND THEY GOT ANGRY! Saying "I got you, just DPS and let's get this over with." I told them you can just keep using Holy since I can really heal myself during trash. And they said "I'm the healer let me heal!" I said" Would you please then so I don't have to?" He left without saying anything and soon the whole group since healers are harder to find then tanks.

Is this the new style of healing? If it is then I suppose healers should get used to PLD throwing down mass quantities of Clemency for a slight DPS loss overall. What confuses me more is WAR's have nascent flash, and DRK has souleater, and GNB has aurora. Every tank has a heal in some manner, and i'm guessing that nobody is scowling over simple heals like that. PLD is the only tank with a massive direct heal, and we rightly should because we used to have cure 1 if some can remember. Now we have to be looked down on for a skill that is actually super helpful and synergies with requeiscat?

Thoughts?

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Until/unless you die, I'd generally trust your healer. Especially, oddly enough, the DPS-happy ones. If they're letting your health drop, it's because every point of HP you have left when Bene hits, for instance, is a point of healing wasted. On the other hand, especially in a wall-to-wall pull, the lack of your dps could cost you your life later, when your CDs have run out and not even the strongest Cure II / Lily spam can keep you alive.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Until/unless you die, I'd generally trust your healer. Especially, oddly enough, the DPS-happy ones. If they're letting your health drop, it's because every point of HP you have left when Bene hits, for instance, is a point of healing wasted. On the other hand, especially in a wall-to-wall pull, the lack of your dps could cost you your life later, when your CDs have run out and not even the strongest Cure II / Lily spam can keep you alive.

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Hmmm yeah while I don't totally agree with this. Your saying that a tanks DPS now in SHB is a make or break weather I die or not, and a healer DPS can help me stay alive at 10% health. Couldn't the healer...I don't know...stop DPSing and...heal me maybe? I don't understand your logic here, sorry.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Hmmm yeah while I don't totally agree with this. Your saying that a tanks DPS now in SHB is a make or break weather I die or not, and a healer DPS can help me stay alive at 10% health. Couldn't the healer...I don't know...stop DPSing and...heal me maybe? I don't understand your logic here, sorry.

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Gonna drop this here, although a tank's DPS doesn't make or break a dungeon run (since there are no dps checks), tanks basically have DPS tier aoe rotations now, as a paladin you almost do as much as a bard on aoe pulls, so it's like adding a third dps to the party. The faster a pull die, the less damage you technically take. You don't HAVE to at all, but it helps.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Hmmm yeah while I don't totally agree with this. Your saying that a tanks DPS now in SHB is a make or break weather I die or not, and a healer DPS can help me stay alive at 10% health. Couldn't the healer...I don't know...stop DPSing and...heal me maybe? I don't understand your logic here, sorry.

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It's neither new nor always the case. If you outgear content, or if the content is quite simply lowly tuned, a healer can sustain the full pull even without tank mitigation. But ultimately, the party's DPS (including yours and the healers) will determine whether you still face all the enemies when your and your healer's CDs run dry, or only a part of them (which then acts as a form of mitigation in itself).

Think of it as two competing output rates -- your party's and all the enemies'--and their dynamics over the course of the fight. The more efficiently your party can deal your outputs (healing, damage, or mitigation), moreover, the higher your party's rate. Compared to these changes in outputs over time, your starting HP is of very little difference.

When the fight starts, you deal high damage and have high mitigation, meaning they deal little damage. As the fight progresses--at least until the next set of CDs, which would be well after bonus mitigation has depleted--your party's damage decreases. Meanwhile, your mitigation, likewise, decreases, and the effects any pre-fight HoTs (added rate at start) or shields (added starter HP) would have wear off.

Once your healer is down to Spells (GCDs) alone, not even a WHM can put out even so much as 800 healing potency per GCD (or, some 320 potency per second). And that... may not be enough to deal with all the incoming damage if no mobs have died yet.

• Mitigation should be used when damage intake would be highest (i.e. when most efficient). When working with a WHM, this can take on significant interactions.
• Healing GCDs should be used to provide oGCD weaves or where soon necessary and of greatest strength and/or allowing for the most Ability casts within the fight without any waste, but only where the damage delayed by using those healing GCDs would not have provided more contextually significant mitigation through kills assisted than the earliness of the heals added efficiency through the methods prior methods.
• Damage should be the anchoring priority; one should only stray from damage when doing so indirectly provides... more damage.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Did they change something about Clemency?
Because it's driving me insane when I heal in dungeons... It seems like there's more Clemency spammers around than before, lol.
And every time that I point it out and tell PLD's that they're not going to die and don't need to use Clemency they're either rude or don't respond or tell me why.

It's honestly very irritating and feels like they don't trust me <_<.
Just because you're bellow 80% hp doesn't mean that you're going to die or that I am sleeping ( btw I have insta heals )...

If they changed Clemency and made it useful for dps somehow then for some reason people refuse to tell me.

Edit: I am not trying to '' tell people how to play '' or whatever... Altho to me it's almost like a BLM spamming Freeze for the AoE rotation or something, it's just slowing things down and I am fully capable of AoE:ing whilst keeping the tank alive at the same time without stopping my AoE.
And I mean you're using a GCD that could be used for AoE instead whilst I have OGCD's to use. I don't have to stop really.
But I'd be lying if I said that it didn't almost feel like taunting at times or as if they think that I am incompetent.
And even tho I am not rude when I point it out and I do it in a friendly manner I still get rude responses back.

I've had a lot of bad experiences with PLD's since Shadowbringers for some reason o_o...
It's making me bitter towards them...
I don't understand what's happening and if something was changed because it seems to have gotten worse imo.
Perhaps just a lot of new people I guess.

Maybe I come across as rude in my comment but I don't mean to be, I just had numerous of bad experiences with this in a row.
The last one where I decided to ask ( politely ) I was cussed out...

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People using Clemency when they're at 80%? Wow, as a PLD main, I never do that. That's just inane considering that I trust my healers to do their job. Clemency is a nice niche skill to use if: a) you have incompetent healers b) the healer(s) is dead and you can help with healing c) ability to do old content unsynced w/o the need for a healer.