Blue Mage damage

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Yeah and that stopped being the case in 2.x. :) Now we have concrete data like how summoner's dots contribute 20% of its dps if kept at 100% uptime and Pld is about 10%, etc. To be fair I did not dissect the BLU damage contributors, and probably won't as it is useless atm due to no relevance to any content, we just wanted ballpark marks and I got the numbers in my previous post.

Back then we had multiples but everyone converged to 1 parser that was originally designed for ever quest but been since changed to accommodate various plug-ins that work on many mmos in the market. This one reads dot damage from the packets being sent back and forth to the server. The issue is the game reads dot ticks as "combined damage" so you can't separate them (but fflogs follows a formula to do so). But if you're the only source of said dots, it will be exact.

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If that's the case for BLU, then why do you parse the same when casting dots vs not? That's what I'm really getting to. The parse gives you between 400 and 500 when casting song of torment for instance. If you parse and never cast it, the dps doesn't go down. Does Song of torment do no damage?

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Originally Posted by Symon17

If that's the case for BLU, then why do you parse the same when casting dots vs not? That's what I'm really getting to. The parse gives you between 400 and 500 when casting song of torment for instance. If you parse and never cast it, the dps doesn't go down. Does Song of torment do no damage?

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Song of Torment is being cast. And if you drop it you lose DPS. If your parser is not logging the DoT, you configured it incorrectly, or aren't running it as an administrator. Check google as I don't want to get into details on the official forums. (Again, the SMN loses 20% for not using Bio and Miasma which we know for a fact because it logs so).

Also, DPS in general is all about damage over a period of time. Think of it Damage per GCD (Since GCD is a unit of time). If a DoT like Aqua Breath is used, which applies Dropsy, it directly deals 90 potency and Dropsy deals 10/tick, which in 12 seconds is 3~4 ticks. The GCD you used net you 120~130 potency.. Might as well just cast Glower. Aqua Breath into High Voltage is 130/GCD, so unless you "want" the paralysis to be extended, just cast Glower/Flamethrower/etal. This for example is why using Thunder Cloud on BLM is not considered "clipping the DoT" because the GCD you spent nets you the total value of a thunder + refresh the DoT. But if you use 2 TCs in a row you "waste" a GCD that could've been spent on Fire 4 which is higher potency than a TC before the DoT ticks.

BLU having no actual off-GCD actions and its damage boosters "costing" GCDs lowers the average Damage/GCD (DPS). That's why Bristling everything is a net loss. Song of Torment is worth the Bristle use though. Because every GCD you spend is 130 (using as base line), SoT is 300 potency (inital damage + dot), Bristle will give you 150 which is higher than the 130 baseline. Parsers WILL show you this.

Based on the above 2 points, if you are using Bad Breath and Aqua Breath for the DoT component, you are not "gaining" damage since they total 130 for the GCD they cost you to cast. Meaning Aqua Breath + its DoT = Glower. As such you will parse the same.

There is also DoT uptime or clipping. If you let the DoT drop or you cut it too early it might make no difference. This is mainly because BLU's "DoT"s are laughable at best 300 (song) or 130 (aqua and bad breath) vs 130 fillers. On the other hand, the SMN's Bio is 500 and Miasma is 550 vs it's filler GCD being 120 in Ruin 3. Or the PLD's Goring Blade being a 570 GCD when the PLD's average GCD is ~250 or so. Black Mage Thunder III is 390 total, and TC is double that.

The thing that WILL throw your parse out of whack though is the usage of Missile/Tail Screw. Against Ramuh I was doing 350-ish, which is low since with 7 BLUs rotating Peculiar Light we should have a permanent 30% increase, but also no one had primal spells and the Fear that most of the team didn't know how to break made the average so low. However, if one of us lands the first tail screw their DPS shoots to 800 (and when the fight ends they would "average" 700). But that's not really "DPS".... It's called "Cheese". And this can be adjusted to only work for certain things instead of being "OP".

Edit: Sorry for the edits. Typing on the phone sucks and auto correct doesn't' help lol. And I tend to derp because my fingers don't like to listen to my brain... bad fingers!!

Last Edit: I just remembered this: The margin of error in the DoT calculation is that the parser does not know which DoTs crit so it tries to estimate the crits. This is mainly an issue if you have multiple DoT classes (BRD+DRG+SMN+BLM) or multiples of the same DoT (i.e. 2 SMNs). FFlogs corrects it to be more accurate crit/dh rate (not exact). Total damage done will be exact, however, so DPS will not be affected by this.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Song of Torment is being cast. And if you drop it you lose DPS. If your parser is not logging the DoT, you configured it incorrectly, or aren't running it as an administrator. Check google as I don't want to get into details on the official forums. (Again, the SMN loses 20% for not using Bio and Miasma which we know for a fact because it logs so).

Also, DPS in general is all about damage over a period of time. Think of it Damage per GCD (Since GCD is a unit of time). If a DoT like Aqua Breath is used, which applies Dropsy, it directly deals 90 potency and Dropsy deals 10/tick, which in 12 seconds is 3~4 ticks. The GCD you used net you 120~130 potency.. Might as well just cast Glower. Aqua Breath into High Voltage is 130/GCD, so unless you "want" the paralysis to be extended, just cast Glower/Flamethrower/etal. This for example is why using Thunder Cloud on BLM is not considered "clipping the DoT" because the GCD you spent nets you the total value of a thunder + refresh the DoT. But if you use 2 TCs in a row you "waste" a GCD that could've been spent on Fire 4 which is higher potency than a TC before the DoT ticks.

BLU having no actual off-GCD actions and its damage boosters "costing" GCDs lowers the average Damage/GCD (DPS). That's why Bristling everything is a net loss. Song of Torment is worth the Bristle use though. Because every GCD you spend is 130 (using as base line), SoT is 300 potency (inital damage + dot), Bristle will give you 150 which is higher than the 130 baseline. Parsers WILL show you this.

Based on the above 2 points, if you are using Bad Breath and Aqua Breath for the DoT component, you are not "gaining" damage since they total 130 for the GCD they cost you to cast. Meaning Aqua Breath + its DoT = Glower.

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None of the rotations I'm referring to use aqua breath, bad breath, or an instant death skill though. And I can confirm that they aren't trying to make use of the combos (like high voltage) you mentioned. I understand that a 130 potency spell spam in between primal skills and bristled song of torment is the most efficient. My issue isn't that my numbers are low. I'm trying to understand how, if what you're saying is true, I can consistently hit around 550 dps, even when checked against multiple sources. That includes manually calculating the dps by adding up the damage from the battle log.

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Originally Posted by Symon17

None of the rotations I'm referring to use aqua breath, bad breath, or an instant death skill though. And I can confirm that they aren't trying to make use of the combos (like high voltage) you mentioned. I understand that a 130 potency spell spam in between primal skills and bristled song of torment is the most efficient. My issue isn't that my numbers are low. I'm trying to understand how, if what you're saying is true, I can consistently hit around 550 dps, even when checked against multiple sources. That includes manually calculating the dps by adding up the damage from the battle log.

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Well, if you're consistently hitting 550 then that's your DPS. I approximated a DPS range between 400 and 500, 50 above that isn't too far off. I wasn't optimizing and I only tried it twice (once by myself and a second time showing a friend). But if what you are saying that with and without Song of Torment you're getting 550, then it can be that whoever is updating the parsing plug-in didn't care enough to accurately hit BLU. But I know for a fact SoT increased my damage (when I was testing without the primal spells I tried with it and without it to see if bristling SoT vs skipping made a difference while doing mainly Off-Guard and glower spam (Peculiar Light when UP of course).)

Blue magic has always been an odd duck in the FF franchise. In most cases, it was more effectively paired with some sort of melee physical damage like in FF8/FFT/FF10 (I haven't played 11 but I assume its a bit like that as well), making Blue magic a sort of 'flavor', rather than a dedicated caster class. FF14 has chosen to go the route of FF7's enemy skill materia--an extremely useful materia but also extremely niche. The difference being that there are aspects that target specific roles here, most notably tank, that FF7 did not account for since it had only a rudimentary mmo structure that did not rely on the standard tank/healer/dps model.

The short of it is, the reason Bluemage is a 'limited' job is because blue magic by itself is extremely limited in effectiveness. If they had added a melee aspect, like redmage it might have been a different story but they chose to go with blue magic alone and that its own major drawback. With that said, I am eagerly awaiting auto-life in the expansion, which will make all those ko spells make more sense lol.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

But I know for a fact SoT increased my damage (when I was testing without the primal spells I tried with it and without it to see if bristling SoT vs skipping made a difference while doing mainly Off-Guard and glower spam (Peculiar Light when UP of course).)

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Thanks for verifying.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Well, if you're consistently hitting 550 then that's your DPS. I approximated a DPS range between 400 and 500, 50 above that isn't too far off. I wasn't optimizing and I only tried it twice.

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I was originally confused because I believe we're all doing the same rotation (more or less, there isn't a lot to play with as far a BLU goes), and the general consensus seems to be that BLU has poor DPS for level 50 (some are going so far as to say it's "atrocious"). I've tested so many times at this point, and the range I'm getting is 540-580. I've done what I can to verify that my numbers are accurate, so I'm not sure where the discrepancy lies. That's where all of the questioning comes from (though I do get that it's probably pretty annoying).


When sync'd to 50, my SMN was pulling numbers in the high 500s. So when considering the utility BLU brings at that level, it feels somewhat fairly balanced. That's all I'm trying to say.

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Originally Posted by Symon17

Thanks for verifying.



I was originally confused because I believe we're all doing the same rotation (more or less, there isn't a lot to play with as far a BLU goes), and the general consensus seems to be that BLU has poor DPS for level 50 (some are going so far as to say it's "atrocious"). I've tested so many times at this point, and the range I'm getting is 540-580. I've done what I can to verify that my numbers are accurate, so I'm not sure where the discrepancy lies. That's where all of the questioning comes from (though I do get that it's probably pretty annoying).


When sync'd to 50, my SMN was pulling numbers in the high 500s. So when considering the utility BLU brings at that level, it feels somewhat fairly balanced. That's all I'm trying to say.

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I don't mind the questions. Clarifying things is something I do pretty often. Whither I'm on the receiving end or trying to send a message.

I am not going to ask your SMN rotation and will trust you know what you are doing. But I want to bring a few more concerns to mind...

First, game is not balanced around level 50 anymore. Summoners lost a fair bit of damage when they lost an entire DoT ability that wasn't compensated until mid-60s for example. The only reason we're not too far off from ARR days is the removal of the "fluff" stat of accuracy (which adds no damage, only ensure hits) and addition of Direct Hit. So not only we have more stats, we have more of the stats.

SMN in Stormblood not only lost the ability to stack Bio II with Bio, but it also lost Raging Strikes, 20% (or was it 30%?) is not something to scoff at. Especially since we could contagion to extend our "super DoTs" which included Miasma II (and Potent Poisoning Potion if people remember this) which we also lost. So if you sync'd at 50 and still kept RS and old contagion, I doubt you'd only get around 500 DPS. Heck, our main mechanic of Dreadwyrm Trance resetting our Tri-D to reapply DoTs without spending GCDs isn't available until 60. (I say "our" because I was a SMN main for most of HW and until 4.4 hit when I changed back to tanks and SMN is my current off-spec).

This isn't only true for SMN mind you. Every job, be it DPS, tanks or healers, changed. MNK lost a vital DoT (touch of death), damage on GCDs and oGCDs because the addition of Brotherhood and crits giving Chakra. DRG changed a lot and lost Phlebotomize and Power Surge (Whichever move that powered their next Jump). Ninja, a DoT and combo changes, etc. IMHO, most jobs are unplayable under 60 now-a-days (mainly because it feels VERY restricted with all the "fun" things are so back-loaded. Warrior's IR and DRK's TBN come to mind.). Hence now that I have all my jobs at 70 I do not touch mentor, leveling, or any other content that syncs me down and I am seriously praying of a Guild Wars 2 style level sync where stats drop below someone at that level but you retain all your abilities. But I digress. My main point here is; it is very difficult to accurately place BLU in a "rank" between the DPS jobs because of lack of balance around level 50.

On last thing, when you sync your SMN to 50, are you wearing actual ilv130 gear or are you using your lv70 gear? You lose melds and the item stat "budget" was different at ilv130 vs current gear (we can have more determination than we did back then and you lose materia effects when sync'd). Just want to know if that was also taken into account.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

SMN in Stormblood not only lost the ability to stack Bio II with Bio, but it also lost Raging Strikes, 20% (or was it 30%?) is not something to scoff at. Especially since we could contagion to extend our "super DoTs" which included Miasma II (and Potent Poisoning Potion if people remember this) which we also lost. So if you sync'd at 50 and still kept RS and old contagion, I doubt you'd only get around 500 DPS. Heck, our main mechanic of Dreadwyrm Trance resetting our Tri-D to reapply DoTs without spending GCDs isn't available until 60. (I say "our" because I was a SMN main for most of HW and until 4.4 hit when I changed back to tanks and SMN is my current off-spec).

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That's a good point. I didn't consider the loss of raging strikes (That seems so long ago), but by "High 500s" I meant around 580 ish.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

IMHO, most jobs are unplayable under 60 now-a-days (mainly because it feels VERY restricted with all the "fun" things are so back-loaded. Warrior's IR and DRK's TBN come to mind.).

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I agree, though it's kind of funny how similar SMN felt to BLU when sync'd. They both have the idea of "get your dots up, blow your burst attacks and then filler until it's time to start over again".

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Originally Posted by Symon17

I agree, though it's kind of funny how similar SMN felt to BLU when sync'd. They both have the idea of "get your dots up, blow your burst attacks and then filler until it's time to start over again".

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That comparison made me sad :(

580 on smn is pretty high for lv50 though. Meanwhile I get level 70s in dungeon doing that number. Lol

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

That comparison made me sad :(

580 on smn is pretty high for lv50 though. Meanwhile I get level 70s in dungeon doing that number. Lol

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That's honestly impressive at lvl 70. You have to put real effort into that.