I Love 4.0 Summoner. A lot.

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Originally Posted by TsundereImouto

While things like bahamut moving, the summoner dying, and pet responsiveness are annoyances, I don't believe they are big enough problems that they spoil the design of the job, at least for me.

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https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#boss=42

With the amount of Utility summoner brings (Generally being underwhelming,) and lack luster dps numbers, it's not ok. While you might enjoy the play style behind it, The class feels so unrewarding for the amount of work you have to do achieve good dps. Summoner is like trying to skateboard uphill. While you might enjoy that, Most summoner's don't.


The fact that Bard and Machinist outdps summoner's in almost every percentile, and bring mana/tp regen, whole party damage increases for around 30 seconds each, with other bonuses as well (Like Battle Voice and the additional effects of there songs) and have no cast times (Meaning higher mobility then summoner) Just put it over the edge for me. Summoner is High risk Low Reward. And out of all of Summoner's problems It needs to be fixed to high Risk, High Reward. If Summoner's could match the dps of Black Mage's or at least be comparable I wouldn't mind it so much. Summoner's are the weakest caster class in ever regard. Black Mage's can pull 4800 dps now in Savage while having a rather simple rotation compared to Summoner. They don't have to worry about unresponsive pets, and they have more mobility with being able to teleport to leylines, triplecast, and teleport to other people. Summoner's are 600 dps below Black Mages, and still lower then Red Mage's dps who offer better utility and more dps.

Using a clunky, unresponsive pet class that was altered to prevent you from increasing your dps (using Aetherflow in dreadwyrm trance) Might be fine for you, But in no way is Summoner in a good spot. The Playstyle feels neutered from what it once was to me and there's no payoff for it.

I thought they said they would fine tune numbers based off Omega Normal performance? or was is based on Omega Savage? If they want to balance classes around the average player then they sure as hell failed with SMN. Look at this gap of SMN's compared to other classes (Omega Normal compared to the Omega Savage above):

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/16...gregate=amount

Check every percentile. It's so bad. Even the current "Maximum" dps of the class is lower than bard and machinists. Machinists who still need buffs. We're doing worse dps than them in omega normal mode apparently. You could make an argument that all the good summoners are doing savage and I'd say the same could be said for the good players of the other classes. What we see from these early statistics is that SMN produces absolute garbage DPS at every percentile. Hey, maybe we'll see changes in the next patch? Or is that too hopeful? Maybe they give us sustain and think that fixes things. Who knows.

not a fan myself. I loved dot management and Contagion is meh now as well. Id take Heavensward Summoner all day. Dont like I cant heal my pet either virtually making Titan a waste of a summon if for some reason you need him to tank for you. Im happy others have found their niche though. Thats great!

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Originally Posted by CecMiller

I thought they said they would fine tune numbers based off Omega Normal performance? or was is based on Omega Savage? If they want to balance classes around the average player then they sure as hell failed with SMN. Look at this gap of SMN's compared to other classes (Omega Normal compared to the Omega Savage above):

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/16...gregate=amount

Check every percentile. It's so bad.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Using a clunky, unresponsive pet class that was altered to prevent you from increasing your dps (using Aetherflow in dreadwyrm trance) Might be fine for you, But in no way is Summoner in a good spot. The Playstyle feels neutered from what it once was to me and there's no payoff for it.

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Tuning numbers and redesigning a job are completely separate things. I admit multiple times in this thread that Summoner is undertuned. The question is whether Summoner is fun or not. You said the playstyle is neutered, but I think the playstyle is amazing. You actually have to try to be a good summoner, and being a good summoner feels really fun. This is personal opinion.

For me, there doesn't have to be any payoff. If I had to work really hard to be equal at the top level to a black or red mage, i would be happy to do that. Playing Summoner would be a choice to play a more complex playstyle while still being balanced at the top. We are currently undertuned compared to them, but in my mind that's agnostic to the difficulty of the class. In my opinion, you shouldn't get to do more DPS at the 95+percentiles because your class is harder to master; that complexity and depth should be a choice you get to make because you enjoy playing like that. A simpler yet stronger Summoner would be disgusting. That's what red mage is; boring, yet strong without even trying. For me, I derive fulfillment from a challenging and balanced class.

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Originally Posted by TsundereImouto

For me, there doesn't have to be any payoff. If I had to work really hard to be equal at the top level to a black or red mage, i would be happy to do that. Playing Summoner would be a choice to play a more complex playstyle while still being balanced at the top. We are currently undertuned compared to them, but in my mind that's agnostic to the difficulty of the class. In my opinion, you shouldn't get to do more DPS at the 95+percentiles because your class is harder to master; that complexity and depth should be a choice you get to make because you enjoy playing like that. A simpler yet stronger Summoner would be disgusting. That's what red mage is; boring, yet strong without even trying. For me, I derive fulfillment from a challenging and balanced class.

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I see things completely opposite then you. Summoner already has been simplified. Out of the four dots summoner had, they have been reduced to two dots and an Ogcd that's instant. Dot's used to take 10 seconds to cast (Shadowflare Bio 2 Miasma Bio) and the new to dots that take 2.5 seconds to cast and can be insta cast with Tri-Disaster. Pet's as you said can be set to "Sic" which is also simplified. Pet's don't need any more interaction with that past that point -simpler. Dreadwyrm trance has been streamlined so that it automatically resets Tri-Disaster and locks you into using ruin 3 exclusively. Aetherflow stacks can no longer fall off, and can no longer be lost even if you fester/bane a target with no dots. Fester and Painflare had their cooldowns cut in half, making it easier to fit into abilities like trick attack or litany. Ruin 1 + 3 automatically change to Ruin 4 when it procs and requires no additional input to use. Objectively speaking Summoner couldnt get any easier unless Smn automatically deathflares, or bahamut automatically uses his attacks. It's been extremely simplified. Did you play it in heavensward? It was much more complicated using aetherflow in dreadwyrm trance and squeezing out as much damage as possible compared to how it is now. Summoner got three new buttons for stormblood. Devotion, Summon Bahamut, and Ahk morn. Everything else just dumbed down or changed into something else. It was made to be as easy as possible. Not a single thing could be done to make it easier unless the class starts playing itself. The most difficult part of the class is trying to Ahk morn twice in contagion's duration.

Red Mage is the polar opposite to Summoner. If you say you find it boring, I would ask you if you have ever played Red Mage, let alone level it to 70. Or are you just listening to what other people say instead of playing it for yourself? (Your profile suggests that your only level 70 class is arcanist, and your next highest class is a level 60 machinist.) Red Mage requires much more thought then Summoner, balancing three different procs and trying to constantly keep uptime on the boss. Red Mage doesn't have a single dot, and I often find myself trying new ways of sneaking in dps. Any time a Red Mage isn't busy casting, backflipping or melee-ing they are doing 0 damage. In comparison, Summoner's pet and their dots make doing damage easy. Your pet will auto attack anything once in combat and Dots do damage as long as they last. Summoner is much easier to do damage, (Albeit less damage.) In O3s I found out that I can lunge towards Apanda, unleash my melee combo on it, and backflip back into my square and verholy it for extra damage, instead of staying in my square and losing damage. If I mess up that jump in anyway, somebody is going to die. Something Summoner never has to worry about.

Your entitled to your opinion, but classes need to be rewarding. If the hardest class in the game offers no reward and is utterly useless, nobody is going to want to play or use that class. I don't see level 70 Archers, or gladiators, or Marauders running around. Those are probably the hardest classes to play at level 70. Yet I don't see anyone playing them. I suspect it's cause those classes aren't rewarding to play and struggle to stay viable. Summoner to me is simpler and weaker which is infinitely more disgusting to me then it being Simpler and strong. There already are classes that are relatively simple and strong, and there are classes are that complicated. If you think Summoner is complex, you should switch to dragoon. That class is far more complicated, requires several positional attacks, and has a long history of people dying trying to squeeze in more dps.

The most challenging fight for summoner in my opinion, was a11s back in heavensward. When Aetherflow had numerous opportunities to fall off. Something that's impossible to happen now.

At Ariomi: I hope you realise that archers become bards, marauders become warriors, and gladiators become paladins, all of which are seen quite often.

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Originally Posted by Canubirt

At Ariomi: I hope you realise that archers become bards, marauders become warriors, and gladiators become paladins, all of which are seen quite often.

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I'm well aware. You can still play as those classes by un-equipping their soulstones. People in heavensward would run 24 man raids without their soulstones for the additional challenge. I was comparing Summoner to those classes without their soulstones. - Extra challenge and not really viable with their low dps.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Snip.

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Well...no.
Smn was simplified in what? 1 button?
If you ever played it you would know that; yes, the job is still complex.
SMN has now 3 or more openers and no one knows which one is the best.
Delaying your deathflare or no in the first Trance is still unknown if it's better or not.
Also, lining up all your cooldowns and know which one use on Bahamut.
Delaying Aetherflow and Contagion for Bahamut over, and over again. I' m pretty sure we end wasting 1 or 2 aetherflow/contagion every battle.
The job is the ONLY one with no perfect lining of its abilities.
And no, it' s almost impossible to double akh morn in contagion considering that the delay from Garuda casting the ability, the delay from summoning Bahamut and the delay by casting akh morn and IF Bahamut does it instantly.
Yes, you can have to look to your "hard" 3 procs while we gotta align the stars and press a thousand buttons when we Summon Bahamut and wasting a bunch of ruin IVs because of the weaves and still not being punished as we are.
Our pets/dots can still keep on the boss (Dots damage nerfed by 1/3), although Ruin 3 is the 2nd ability (wind blade ahead) that gives us more dps.
So no, smn should have much more dps than now by the trouble we have with it. And while red mage being easier and also less punishing still does a considerable damage more than smn.

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Originally Posted by Caduagm

Well...no.
Smn was simplified in what? 1 button?
So no, smn should have much more dps than now by the trouble we have with it. And while red mage being easier and also less punishing still does a considerable damage more than smn.

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If you read any of my posts you would hear me complaining about how low summoner dps is. It's incredibly simple. But low dps.


And when Heavensward was out, there was multiple openers. 2P 1F Opener that was a good middle, There was energy drain fester and painflare opener that was great for burst, and the 2f 1 painflare opener that all had varying degrees of success.

Summoner was incredibly simplified. Lost Raging strikes, Spur, Miasma and Blizzard 2, sustain, and Bio.
Absolutely simplified when you no longer have to line up rouse and spur cooldowns, no longer lining up aetherflow raging strikes and tri-disaster with dreadwyrm trance and contagion when tri-disaster resets anyways.

Summoner lost 2 cooldowns, 4 spells, and got devotion and bahamut. Devotion has very little impact, and Bahamut acts as a different trance where people spam ruin 2 and addle to get the most out of him.

And Contagion is only 15 seconds. it lasts shorter then both bahamut trance and bahamut himself.
Contagion used to be a 560 potency boost to summoner's dps. No matter where you use it, You'll be lucky if you get 200 dps increase from it. It's incredibly simple now, it just doesn't have any flow with how clunky it is. Summoner doesn't have to worry about positionals, the core of the class to maximize damage is to squeeze out as many as ruin 3's as possible, and every last wyrmwave.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

I see things completely opposite then you. Summoner already has been simplified. (snip)

Red Mage is the polar opposite to Summoner. If you say you find it boring, I would ask you if you have ever played Red Mage, let alone level it to 70. Or are you just listening to what other people say instead of playing it for yourself? (Your profile suggests that your only level 70 class is arcanist, and your next highest class is a level 60 machinist.) Red Mage requires much more thought then Summoner, balancing three different procs and trying to constantly keep uptime on the boss. Red Mage doesn't have a single dot, and I often find myself trying new ways of sneaking in dps. Any time a Red Mage isn't busy casting, backflipping or melee-ing they are doing 0 damage. In comparison, Summoner's pet and their dots make doing damage easy. Your pet will auto attack anything once in combat and Dots do damage as long as they last. Summoner is much easier to do damage, (Albeit less damage.) In O3s I found out that I can lunge towards Apanda, unleash my melee combo on it, and backflip back into my square and verholy it for extra damage, instead of staying in my square and losing damage. If I mess up that jump in anyway, somebody is going to die. Something Summoner never has to worry about.

(snip)

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i don't know if you are serious about that part or just kidding... Rdm needs more thoughts and is more complex? In which world? Rdm is boring and braindead - even if you get a proc wrong you won't lose dps compared to smn. Rdm have 1001 ways to continue after a mistake smn not - they are simple screwed up if they do a wrong decision, if they have to move Bahamut or fall of short mp (what rdm actually never do) if you time con wrong or healer negate radiant reflect with shields etc.. so where exactly do u see the "foreseeing" or "complexity" of rdm cls? rdms only choice is "black or white spell next?" nothing more nothing less. I played both in o1s/o2s and rdm is waaaaaay more relaxing and earns way more dps even with messing up or playing as "3rd healer" with vita/res in between.

well... I think its senseless to discuss this any further... we won't find a match in this : /